YAGT: OMG I love guns

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RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
81
Let me know how that works out for you when zombie #9 is munching on your delicious brains.

Let me know when you get done watching the walking dead. They kill the stupid kid yet?

The 9mm penetrates deeper.
Just how many people have you shot?

And it expands less. The real test is how it penetrates through layers of clothing - which +P .45 does fine. Anything beyond that - that is to say armor - means you need something other than a hollow point, and you're likely in over your head anyway. If the round goes through thick layers of clothing fine, the next issue becomes expansion, which .45 wins hands down.
 

Merad

Platinum Member
May 31, 2010
2,586
19
81
Because in terms of penetration, .45 only penetrates on calibrated gel a difference of 2" usually, while expanding much more. The best round in SD is going to be the round that penetrates the best while expanding the most. I think shot placement matters a lot more with a 9mm round in comparison to a .45 round. As for capacity, if 7+1 rounds is not enough, you either found yourself in the middle of a war, or your aim is terrible and you had better put the gun down. There is absolutely no need for 16 rounds in any self defense situations you can come to expect.

There is very little practical difference in the performance of the major service calibers. In fact based on what I've read most of the ammo manufacturers design their SD ammo to have the same performance regardless of caliber.

 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
seriously caliber is too much a focus.

think capacity and carry and RELIABILITY!

a gun at home could be a gun you need. A jammed gun is one you don't.

imho the cz-p01 should be most people's choice. plus oc spray and a knife.
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,739
454
126
Where are all the anti- gunners on at. This site seems pro-gun and possibly pro-knife!

It's been established that anti-gunners need to stay out of the pro-gun threads. It strays from the main topic and leads to fights.

Unless it's thread specifically to discuss opinions on gun law... but most of those thoughts are more p&n oriented.
 

Kelvrick

Lifer
Feb 14, 2001
18,422
5
81
I don't know what people have against 9mm 1911. My 2 9-1911's get along fine with my 45 and my 22 upper. They cost about as much as any similarly spec'ed 1911, but are cheaper and easier to shoot.

They have been every bit as reliable as any sig, glock, hk, kahr, s&w mp, cz I've owned.

 

IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
14,588
6,042
136
9mm, .40, .45 are all great calibers provided you are using quality self defense ammo.

Given their similar terminal performance with quality ammo, I would give the nod to 9mm based on controllability and capacity.

BUT, as with the "get the gun that fits your hand" remark I made earlier, get the gun that fits YOUR requirements. In this case it sounds like the OP prefers 9mm.

I personally own 7.62x25mm, 9mm, and .40 S&W handguns. Of those, I shoot the 9mm best.
 

Merad

Platinum Member
May 31, 2010
2,586
19
81
Get the 1911, write us a review. :awe: This should be the de facto general guns thread lol.

Well I probably won't purchase either one for another week or so, at least.

Also, lol @ the nuclear 10mm.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
I don't know what people have against 9mm 1911. My 2 9-1911's get along fine with my 45 and my 22 upper. They cost about as much as any similarly spec'ed 1911, but are cheaper and easier to shoot.

They have been every bit as reliable as any sig, glock, hk, kahr, s&w mp, cz I've owned.


IMO the 1911 is an inefficient design for the 9mm. There are lighter, higher capacity handguns that control almost as well or as well. The only real reason for a 9mm 1911 IMO is concealed carry, like the Springfield EMP. But all that's changing with the new Sig P938 (which may become my new carry gun when I get the money).

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductList/pistols-p938.aspx
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
There is very little practical difference in the performance of the major service calibers. In fact based on what I've read most of the ammo manufacturers design their SD ammo to have the same performance regardless of caliber.


Like all things gun-related, it comes down to trade-offs. For my money, the .45 has a proven man-stopping track record (through multiple world wars no less) that the 9mm, despite being almost as old, has never developed. Also, that "very little" practical performance may make a difference in the moment.

Essentially it comes down to the old question. 9mm or .45: Which would you rather be shot with?

The obvious advantage to 9mm is capacity, but IMO if I need more than 11 shots of .45 I'm likely in WAY over my hand and am probably retreating. And in any case the 9mm capacity advantage must not be all that great, as a good chunk of US police departments have switched to the .40.

Not to bash the 9, and arguing over calibers 9 and above is largely pointless, as they will all readily kill the crap out of anyone. It's a question of which performance margins you prefer. Do you want marginally harder hitting rounds, or marginally more rounds?
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
81
Like all things gun-related, it comes down to trade-offs. For my money, the .45 has a proven man-stopping track record (through multiple world wars no less) that the 9mm, despite being almost as old, has never developed. Also, that "very little" practical performance may make a difference in the moment.

Essentially it comes down to the old question. 9mm or .45: Which would you rather be shot with?

The obvious advantage to 9mm is capacity, but IMO if I need more than 11 shots of .45 I'm likely in WAY over my hand and am probably retreating. And in any case the 9mm capacity advantage must not be all that great, as a good chunk of US police departments have switched to the .40.

Not to bash the 9, and arguing over calibers 9 and above is largely pointless, as they will all readily kill the crap out of anyone. It's a question of which performance margins you prefer. Do you want marginally harder hitting rounds, or marginally more rounds?

9mm's only advantage is that in a double stack magazine you get amazing capacity. But as for the world wars: there's a story/joke I've heard told with regards to WWI, and the two calibers in comparison. Goes something like "A German closes in and gets into the trench with an American, and shoots the American with his 9mm. The American gets pissed off and caves the German's head in with his trench shovel and crawls off to have a limb amputated. An American gets into a trench with a German, and shoots the German with his .45."

In that gel test, look at the expansion results: you prove me right there as with that batch of gel 9mm and .45 get the same penetration depth; expansion of the .45 is CONSIDERABLY more. Sit there and think about that, and what that means in terms of defense.

I'll take my .45 1911 commander/officer with 7+1 rounds, and an extra 7 round magazine over 16 rounds of 9mm any day of the week. If 8 rounds cannot fix the problem, then I had better be retreating.

As for 10mm, .41 magnum and 10mm get roughly the same performance (I think .41 magnum performs slightly better) - and owning a .41 magnum and having a friend with a 10mm...that's insane. The 10mm case is smaller, but the performance of the round is amazing. I WILL own a 10mm gun one day. A semi-auto with some kick would make me happy - something to match my two revolvers. (as for other semi-autos with larger rounds, wow...the Desert Eagle is something that is unimpressive. Huge, unwieldy gun with a rotating bolt. Who thought this was a good idea?)


seriously caliber is too much a focus.

think capacity and carry and RELIABILITY!

a gun at home could be a gun you need. A jammed gun is one you don't.

imho the cz-p01 should be most people's choice. plus oc spray and a knife.

To me caliber matters. The only 9mm I will EVER own will be a BHP and even so I'd prefer a .40 S&W BHP. But your point on reliability is DEAD on. It should extract/eject RELIABLY. If it cannot, find the trash can. One of the advantages to a revolver: it just works. No extraction concerns. 6 rounds that JUST FIRE.

As for the CZ...plenty of reliable guns to be had. My Glock 21 never jammed. My Dan Wesson CCO has, at worst, not locked the slide back on an empty mag - and that's a mag failure. My two revolvers have consistently gone bang. Every time. My M1A has failed to feed on new magazines - once broken in they feed flawlessly every time. We'll see what happens with my M1 Garand, since I'm finishing with the stock finally and have yet to fire the gun. Also, picking up a 1903 Springfield (another type of gun that just works, really: a bolt action.)
 
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alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
I'll take my .45 1911 commander/officer with 7+1 rounds, and an extra 7 round magazine over 16 rounds of 9mm any day of the week. If 8 rounds cannot fix the problem, then I had better be retreating.

on the street 8 rounds is not a lot anymore when you need it. asshats aren't running when the good guy fires back.

As for 10mm, .41 magnum and 10mm get roughly the same performance (I think .41 magnum performs slightly better) - and owning a .41 magnum and having a friend with a 10mm...that's insane. The 10mm case is smaller, but the performance of the round is amazing. I WILL own a 10mm gun one day. A semi-auto with some kick would make me happy - something to match my two revolvers. (as for other semi-autos with larger rounds, wow...the Desert Eagle is something that is unimpressive. Huge, unwieldy gun with a rotating bolt. Who thought this was a good idea?)


To me caliber matters. The only 9mm I will EVER own will be a BHP and even so I'd prefer a .40 S&W BHP. But your point on reliability is DEAD on. It should extract/eject RELIABLY. If it cannot, find the trash can. One of the advantages to a revolver: it just works. No extraction concerns. 6 rounds that JUST FIRE.

As for the CZ...plenty of reliable guns to be had. My Glock 21 never jammed. My Dan Wesson CCO has, at worst, not locked the slide back on an empty mag - and that's a mag failure. My two revolvers have consistently gone bang. Every time. My M1A has failed to feed on new magazines - once broken in they feed flawlessly every time. We'll see what happens with my M1 Garand, since I'm finishing with the stock finally and have yet to fire the gun. Also, picking up a 1903 Springfield (another type of gun that just works, really: a bolt action.)

the BHP is a great gun, for daily carry though it is large.

the cz p01 is an insanely reliable concealable pistol. plus designed to shoot p+/+p+ all day
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
total range gun then shoot what is not only in your budget, but fun for you. I know dudes that just shoot .22 all day. They love it. I know guys that shoot .357 mag stub and hate shooting it, but know they may need it.
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,739
454
126
Keep in mind, this is my first gun and it's mainly a range gun. I wouldn't mind going 45 initially, but bullets are significantly more expensive than 9mm. I want to practice a lot, but with the prices of 45 ammo it becomes (even more, fucking ammo prices) unfeasible. I could go 40, that ammo isn't too much more, but I haven't researched anything about .40 guns. I just know the glock 22 I fired had a lot of recoil.

Keep this all in mind, because I think you have it figured out. It's your first gun, mainly a range gun to learn how to shoot, and it's not intended for self defense first. Everybody's recommendation for something bigger has solely been for killing things. That's not what you're looking for, so they can be ignored. Go with a 9, don't let anybody tell you differently because they're thinking if a different use. When you want a carry gun, then we're talking bigger rounds. If we're taking home defense, get a shotgun.
 

IGemini

Platinum Member
Nov 5, 2010
2,472
2
81
Keep in mind, this is my first gun and it's mainly a range gun. I wouldn't mind going 45 initially, but bullets are significantly more expensive than 9mm. I want to practice a lot, but with the prices of 45 ammo it becomes (even more, fucking ammo prices) unfeasible. I could go 40, that ammo isn't too much more, but I haven't researched anything about .40 guns. I just know the glock 22 I fired had a lot of recoil.

Glocks are exceptionally light, which affects felt recoil. The first pistol I fired was a Walther P99 in .40S&W, which wasn't any lighter. It was intimidating at first because it is a snappy round, but my comfort level with any pistol caliber skyrocketed. So I don't think learning on .40 is a bad way to go.

Most guns that come in 9mm also have a .40 model, and there aren't really any significant differences between the same model chambered with a different caliber. I agree with your sentiment that Glocks don't feel like anything special. If you like the striker-fired approach that Glock has, the Walther P99/PPQ, Ruger SR9/40, and the Springfield XD are good alternatives. The SIG SP2022 is also a nice option for hammer-fired. All come in either caliber and can have stainless slides.
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
81
on the street 8 rounds is not a lot anymore when you need it. asshats aren't running when the good guy fires back.

And I'm saying that if you cannot get a kill in 8 rounds, you had best be looking for a way out. The vast majority of engagements will NOT be protracted. They'll be a short "GTFO or a shoot" and then "blaam"...

Regardless, you can carry as many mags as you like. I can reload in 1-2 seconds. Hence why I say I have 8 + 7. 8 hollow points, 7 FMJ rounds.

As for a carry gun: Dan Wesson CCO. CZ built, but still held to Dan Wesson quality. Great carry gun; it doesn't print on my shirt when I carry.
 
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Merad

Platinum Member
May 31, 2010
2,586
19
81
Everybody has their own carry preference. While a few choices are pretty retarded, for the most part whatever makes you happy is perfectly legit.

For the OP though, it would be foolish (IMO) to get anything larger than a 9mm. If he decides he wants to carry, then he can get more practice in at the moment without breaking the bank and buy whatever down the road (if the bug bites him, he'll be wanting more guns anyway). TBH, a good .22LR would be an even better choice since he isn't worried about carry or SD, but he's already stated his opinions on that.

I just ordered a case of .45 ACP this morning, and the pricing sucks. I'm gonna have to start reloading sooner or later I guess.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
For a first handgun and range gun you should buy this. Not going to find a better quality or lower priced 9mm anywhere, period. /thread.
 

IGemini

Platinum Member
Nov 5, 2010
2,472
2
81
^^Agreed here. SP2022s are 95% like the P226, which are quality tack-drivers and will eat any ammo you feed them. Only real differences are the polymer frame and the decocker feels slightly different. I haven't done a first purchase but I'm almost certain it'll be one of those for me. That price in the PSA link is a great deal since MSRP is ~$500 and they have the .40 for the same price. Even after all the taxes and fees, it'll still be a bargain.
 
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