Your thoughts on God

[Moonbeam]

To go even further, I blame the atheists and scientists for the anti-science undercurrent in American MUCH more than I do the religious. [/b]

Why? Because many of the religious don't know any better, they weren't born with the tools or training to think for themselves. But the so-called "open minded" and much better educated on average group of atheists and scientists should be smart enough to realize when they are trying to twist the knife with their talking points that they are doing the exact same harm that the religious fundamentalists they oppose are doing.

You can't blame the scientists either. They don't believe in the God of Religion who does not exist so they have no idea who God is. They trust in their science because it works in their experience. They believe in it because they have tasted what can be illuminated in a scientific state of consciousness. They just don't know that God can't be understood by logic but can be known only via the heart. They have never experienced God consciousness. They can only see and measure electrical and chemical events that it causes in the brain. They never consider that their notions that everything is just chemicals and electrical signals are the very things going on in their brains when they believe what they believe. The difference between a glass half full and half empty is attitude.

 

[ThinClient]

Poofy already said it., the smugness, ridicule, and overall hatred you have for people who don't see the world the way you do is primarily the reason I haven't been reading or responding to your posts (until now, of course).

Magnify that by 100 and combine it with the prejudice of your Lord Dawkins, and you'll see why.

So the first time in ages that you're willing to reply to me, you choose a reply that has absolutely no point other than personal insults. You don't address the problem at hand (your attitude and your "no, nobody told me this yesterday" bullshit).

Convenient.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[ThinClient]

You can't blame the scientists either. They don't believe in the God of Religion who does not exist so they have no idea who God is. They trust in their science because it works in their experience. They believe in it because they have tasted what can be illuminated in a scientific state of consciousness. They just don't know that God can't be understood by logic but can be known only via the heart. They have never experienced God consciousness. They can only see and measure electrical and chemical events that it causes in the brain. They never consider that their notions that everything is just chemicals and electrical signals are the very things going on in their brains when they believe what they believe. The difference between a glass half full and half empty is attitude.

Your post is completely pointless when you consider people like me who were raised in the church, who have "experienced god consciousness" and now reject that delusional point of view.

You should leave these kinds of conversations to people who haven't fried their brains on drugs, sir.

 

[sandorski]

Yes of course. Just like when Galileo discovered the earth was not the center of the universe. Religion always reacts that way to threats to its doctrine.

Luckily at some point someone was conciliatory about it and we don't have people pushing a geocentric model hundreds of years later. We will see if that is the case with evolution.



You misunderstand me. I don't blame the science community for the stance of theists. The theists created their stance.

I blame the science community that over a hundred years after Origin of Species was published both sides are so entrenched that belief in creationism is growing. That means the theists are winning the battle of messages, and maybe the atheist community needs to put out a message that is a little better than the current mix of smugness, ridicule, belittlement, and condescension.



You don't have to point that out, I did earlier with the stats. And the stats show that the reason they don't have a problem is because they take the middle ground that you refuse to even validate as a better alternative than creationism.

More people believe in evolution with divine intervention than without divine intervention. The vast majority of Americans have NOT accepted the atheist answer "for what it is," instead they have created their own belief system of a middle ground with very little guidance for either extremist side. That to me is more admirable than firing shots from an entrenched position, and is a real example of "thinking for oneself."

Moot. Science needs not compromise. Atheists need not compromise. It is all on the Theists to square their Beliefs with Scientific Knowledge, if they can't, that's their problem and only their problem.

Are Atheists smug? Possibly. I can say that many of us can talk with great certainty and backup our statements with verifiable Facts. Many of us are not interested in the idea of Faith or "evidence" requiring Faith to accept. If that makes us "smug", so be it. I don't care how others view it, that's their problem.

Truth is, the resurgence of Creationism has nothing to do with Atheists, especially the "New" Atheists. Creationism has been on the upswing for many decades, the "New" Atheists have been around for a decade or so. If there's one group reacting to another, it would appear to be Atheists reacting to ever assertive Theism.

Perhaps Theists should stop pushing itself upon Atheists?

 

[ThinClient]

Moot. Science needs not compromise. Atheists need not compromise. It is all on the Theists to square their Beliefs with Scientific Knowledge, if they can't, that's their problem and only their problem.

Are Atheists smug? Possibly. I can say that many of us can talk with great certainty and backup our statements with verifiable Facts. Many of us are not interested in the idea of Faith or "evidence" requiring Faith to accept. If that makes us "smug", so be it. I don't care how others view it, that's their problem.

Truth is, the resurgence of Creationism has nothing to do with Atheists, especially the "New" Atheists. Creationism has been on the upswing for many decades, the "New" Atheists have been around for a decade or so. If there's one group reacting to another, it would appear to be Atheists reacting to ever assertive Theism.

Perhaps Theists should stop pushing itself upon Atheists?

Thank you.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Faith isn't a word I would use. Hope is. History strongly suggests that religion is the source of most conflict in the world.

Stop you right there.

Scare resources, pride, greed and a lust for power is the source of most conflict in the world. Religion is one type of wrapping paper for this package of human flaws, but wars still happen between secular nations for a reason.

Yes. The atheist movement here in the States is a good example.

I think it is a good example that intelligent and educated people can live without religion.

What I would love to see is evidence of a full society living without religion. I would love to see evidence that those with an IQ below the average behave when the social control called religion and the fear of the flame isn't there to keep them on target.

I am serious. I would love to see the data if you have any.

Yes, it's true that we are largely still bound by our primitive bronze age myths. While none of this nonsense will go away completely (because nobody is perfect and some people just want to watch the world burn), much of it will be lessened. The example of slavery in the United States is a great example.

I don't see slavery as a great example. I think we just outsourced slavery and indentured servitude. Now instead of the slaves working on your land here in America, they work in an Indonesian shoe factory and their efforts are shipped to you via Amazon Prime. In some ways our outsourced slavery is worse than the original kind when you consider the fact that these "modern plantations" are often ruining the environment in area they are based because they are not longer located in the backyard of the slave masters.

Feels like progress sitting at my desk in America, doesn't feel like progress when you are in India watching children huff precious metals burned off of the computer that used to be under my desk.

I am not so quick to pat modern man on the back for his "progress."

Why would you compromise with a lie? Would you compromise to a child once they catch daddy putting presents under the tree that Santa is real but forgot our house this year so dad had to do it, but Santa is still real? Fuck that bullshit. Lying to kids (that Santa is real) is almost as evil as telling them that hell exists and threatening them using fear that they'll go to hell if they don't behave.

You lie to kids about Santa because their little brains use it as an entry point to become involved in the societal celebration we call Christmas. Just like you tolerate the idea that some people believe in evolution with divine intervention because the stats show that is an entry point to believing in evolution without divine intervention.

It is called transition, and it is important part of making practical changes in the world.

You're blaming us for the actions of the religious. Why?

No, I am blaming atheists that somehow those crazy people have a message more palatable than yours for most Americans. Let that sink in- most Americans think YOU are the crazy one. That is a serious failure in message delivery.

Yes, it absolutely DOES matter. You cannot continue to lie to one another and it is EXTREMELY disrespectful to knowingly allow your fellow man to continue believing a lie -especially when that lie is at the foundation of immoral and unethical actions and beliefs.

Why does this one lie matter so much? Our whole freaking society is built on a pile of lies (All Men are Created Equal *cough except our slaves cough*). Why do the ones tied to religion do more damage than the ones tied to politics, or the ones tied to the economy?

What a woman believes created the universe is MUCH less important than what she believes about helping her fellow humans, improving her community, educating her children, etc.

Humanity runs to the crutch of religion for a reason. Humanity lashes out when you try to take the crutch of religion away for a reason. The reason is some people need some of these things (authority, structure, leadership, a path to follow) that you think are bad parts of religion.

The simple truth is not everyone is as smart as you, and not everyone respects intellectualism and free thought like you do. Some people prefer to be told what to do, what to believe, and be part of a group that has existed through human history. That is religion.

What is so wrong with letting those people have their crutch, if in turn you can remove some of the worst side effects of them leaning on it (like anti-science political policy)?

 

[poofyhairguy]

How can this be true? If there is god, wouldn't that make for a different metric of evaluating and understanding that condition and experience, than if there is not?

No, I don't think so. The system of measurement doesn't matter.

Even if I can't measure how fast light travels here from the sun, does that prevent it from doing so? If I can only measure the distance in light years or in meters does that change how far the light had to travel?

I mean, yes your PERSPECTIVE on the world might change, and your ACTIONS towards the world might change, but that all comes from you. When someone believes in God it doesn't change the physical makeup of their being or the chemistry in their brain.

 

[ThinClient]

I don't see slavery as a great example. I think we just outsourced slavery and indentured servitude. Now instead of the slaves working on your land here in America, they work in an Indonesian shoe factory and their efforts are shipped to you via Amazon Prime. In some ways our outsourced slavery is worse than the original kind when you consider the fact that these "modern plantations" are often ruining the environment in area they are based because they are not longer located in the backyard of the slave masters.

Feels like progress sitting at my desk in America, doesn't feel like progress when you are in India watching children huff precious metals burned off of the computer that used to be under my desk.

I am not so quick to pat modern man on the back for his "progress."

Change isn't instant and it's not all-encompassing. Change has to start somewhere, my friend.

You lie to kids about Santa because their little brains use it as an entry point to become involved in the societal celebration we call Christmas. Just like you tolerate the idea that some people believe in evolution with divine intervention because the stats show that is an entry point to believing in evolution without divine intervention.

You don't lie to kids to get them involved in social celebrations. Bullshit. You can have them celebrating the attitude of gifting and giving without the lie. That is more ethical and moral than lying to them only to have to break their heart when they're older. Not only can it prevent tears by doing so, but it prevents the degradation of trust in the parent.

It is called transition, and it is important part of making practical changes in the world.

Right, and change happens a little at a time. :thumbsup:

No, I am blaming atheists that somehow those crazy people have a message more palatable than yours for most Americans. Let that sink in- most Americans think YOU are the crazy one. That is a serious failure in message delivery.

It's not serious failure when you present facts that are supported by literally mountains or earth-sized balls of evidence. You can lead a horse to water but you can't force him to drink. You can present all the logical, reasonable facts in the world but if someone is too stupid to accept them, that's not a failure on the part of the presenter. That's a failure in the part of society who raised someone dumb enough not to understand the concept of the scientific method or someone stupid enough to reject a rational and reasonable thought process.

Why does this one lie matter so much? Our whole freaking society is built on a pile of lies (All Men are Created Equal *cough except our slaves cough*). Why do the ones tied to religion do more damage than the ones tied to politics, or the ones tied to the economy?

I'm not justifying any other lies. One lie at a time. Religion first, other things next. Religion does more damage because people are willing to put the proverbial blinders on. They're WILLINGLY lying to themselves and others. They're perpetuating the lie. As an example, Obamacare allowing you to keep your previous doctor or health plan. Sure, that was a lie. Should we just sweep it under the rug or let others believe that lie? Hell no, we should educate our fellow countrymen on the matter. We should make the lie as public as possible. If you don't understand why this is, I'm not sure that I can lower myself to explain this any more to you.

What a woman believes created the universe is MUCH less important than what she believes about helping her fellow humans, improving her community, educating her children, etc.

When people believe that they can litter and destroy the planet because it won't matter when Jesus comes back, it DOES matter and is HUGELY important. When someone wants something as irrational as creationism taught in science class, that takes away from the time allowed to teach REAL science. That's creating stupid students. That's robbing those students of truth. That's immoral.

Humanity runs to the crutch of religion for a reason. Humanity lashes out when you try to take the crutch of religion away for a reason. The reason is some people need some of these things (authority, structure, leadership, a path to follow) that you think are bad parts of religion.

Yes, much of humanity is weak and stupid enough to cling to religion, but I'm not that weak or stupid and I have hope that our species is slowly growing out of this nonsense. The universe doesn't owe them anything. We're coddling the ignorant. We're pussifying society. Awww, you need Jesus to make you feel better because your dog died and you hope his doggy spirit is in heaven? Give me a fucking break.

The simple truth is not everyone is as smart as you, and not everyone respects intellectualism and free thought like you do. Some people prefer to be told what to do, what to believe, and be part of a group that has existed through human history. That is religion.

Well if those people prefer to be told what to do, I have a nice short list of things that I'd like to tell them to do. The first of which is burning their bible.

Just because people are sheep doesn't mean enabling them to be sheep or making an effort to educate them is wrong or should not be attempted. On the contrary, it drives me even more to make wholehearted effort to save themselves from their own stupidity.

Would you allow a caveman to kill another caveman because he thought his fire was stolen by his rival caveman? Or would you simply teach both of them to make fire?

What is so wrong with letting those people have their crutch, if in turn you can remove some of the worst side effects of them leaning on it (like anti-science political policy)?

It's enabling a dangerous tool that provides no benefit that cannot be provided without said dangerous tool --and doing so removes the evils that come EXCLUSIVELY with religion (like mutilating a child's genitals, suicide-vest-wearing assholes, the list goes on and on and on). There's no reason to let them continue to infect and poison the rest of us and future generations with their bronze age superstition when we can be BETTER people WITHOUT it.

 

[ThinClient]

No, I don't think so. The system of measurement doesn't matter.

Even if I can't measure how fast light travels here from the sun, does that prevent it from doing so? If I can only measure the distance in light years or in meters does that change how far the light had to travel?

I mean, yes your PERSPECTIVE on the world might change, and your ACTIONS towards the world might change, but that all comes from you. When someone believes in God it doesn't change the physical makeup of their being or the chemistry in their brain.

You can change the way people think.

Consider the age-old saying that you can give a man a fish and fill him for the night or teach him to fish and fill him for life.

Do you want to just let the ignorant drudge their way through life continuing to poison the rest of the weak-minded? Or do you want to show that guy that there's a better way and save the nonsense that would go on in the lives of everyone that man would have poisoned?

Do you just want to live your life and die or do you want to make an effort not only to better the current generation but make an effort that will help better the entire globe for generations to come?

 

[poofyhairguy]

Moot. Science needs not compromise. Atheists need not compromise. It is all on the Theists to square their Beliefs with Scientific Knowledge, if they can't, that's their problem and only their problem.

Really?

It is only THEIR problem when scientific research is cut because politicians can because science is the anti-christ to a section of the population?

It is only THEIR problem when text books go backwards in their approach towards evolution because the belief in creationism is growing in America?

No, it is everyones problem. The practical outcome of creationism winning the battle of messages is everyone's problem.

Are Atheists smug? Possibly. I can say that many of us can talk with great certainty and backup our statements with verifiable Facts. Many of us are not interested in the idea of Faith or "evidence" requiring Faith to accept. If that makes us "smug", so be it. I don't care how others view it, that's their problem.

That sure is a way to save humanity from itself and the shackles of religion- not caring whether they care or not. With an attitude like that, no wonder belief in creationism is growing but belief in evolution is not.

This is the 21st century. If you aren't managing your message, someone else (most likely those with competing messages) is.

Perhaps Theists should stop pushing itself upon Atheists?

Maybe. And maybe tomorrow we all throw every gun in a fire and hold hands in a big kumbaya drum circle around that fire. It COULD happen. Not likely though.

Be the change you want to see in the world.

 

[ThinClient]

It's not rational to attribute the growth of creationism to a smugness of atheists.

 

[brandonb]

The simple truth is not everyone is as smart as you, and not everyone respects intellectualism and free thought like you do. Some people prefer to be told what to do, what to believe, and be part of a group that has existed through human history. That is religion.

What is so wrong with letting those people have their crutch, if in turn you can remove some of the worst side effects of them leaning on it (like anti-science political policy)?

I really like your posts poofyhairguy. I like that you mentioned the quoted. To add to it. Look at how many people follow Professional Football or sports in general. They invite their friends over to watch the game. I even had a boss of mine in the past say he cried with his University of Texas football team lost the super bowl game a few years ago. Seriously. SPORTS! Something which has no use to mankind. Nobody's life is better or worse depending on if a sports team won or lost. Sports is used to bond people together. It creates a community. Maybe something for them to root for. Something that gives them purpose.

See how that correlates to religion. Now see how it correlates to everything else we do, listening to music, politics, race, national pride, the list goes on an on. Why is it that a bunch of people come out of the wood work when something happens like your team gets into the super bowl? Now everybody is a fan of said team. Why? Because we are sheep and we want to be part of the winning team. It makes us feel good. There is a reason Justin Bieber exists, and it's not because he's a great musician. No, its because every other 14 year girl is screaming over him. That is the ONLY reason he ever got popular is because someone said "To like this guy, it puts you in the group of awesome." People eat that crap up constantly.

ThinClient just happens to be on the atheist team. Pom-poms and all. That's great! I'm glad it gives him purpose, much like the University of Texas Football team was to my boss. He won't call it a crutch, but it is, much like everybody has their crutch. 4 billion years of evolution has put that need to fit in and be part of a community inside us. We are all victims of that. In some way or another. But you will never get anybody to join your team if you hit them over the head with said crutch. You'll only scare them away. Dale Carnegie wrote a book on it. How to win friends and influence people. You never succeed in getting someone to join your side by telling them they are stupid idiots. Never.

 

[ThinClient]

I don't feel like I'm on a winning team. I feel like I'm on a losing team, as if I am the only player opposing an impossible giant of stupidity and ignorance.

I don't "feel good" about being on any winning team. In fact, I have been shunned and rejected by 99% of my family and friends because I left the church. I do feel a righteous consolation that I'm correct, though; I want nothing more in this life than to help others experience the freedom and prosperity I experience after having broken free of the bondage and oppression that is religion. Is that what you're referring to?

 

[ThinClient]

By the way, there is real scientific evidence that the chord progressions commonly found in pop music (I-IV-V) force a neurotransmitter release in the brain that causes euphoric effects (makes people happy) even in people like me who claim profusely to dislike pop music.

Combine that with a cute face where the target audience are girls who cannot control their hormones and you have a recipe for getting rich.

THAT is why Bieber is famous. Not because people want to be on the winning team.

 

[sandorski]

Really?

It is only THEIR problem when scientific research is cut because politicians can because science is the anti-christ to a section of the population?

It is only THEIR problem when text books go backwards in their approach towards evolution because the belief in creationism is growing in America?

No, it is everyones problem. The practical outcome of creationism winning the battle of messages is everyone's problem.



That sure is a way to save humanity from itself and the shackles of religion- not caring whether they care or not. With an attitude like that, no wonder belief in creationism is growing but belief in evolution is not.

This is the 21st century. If you aren't managing your message, someone else (most likely those with competing messages) is.



Maybe. And maybe tomorrow we all throw every gun in a fire and hold hands in a big kumbaya drum circle around that fire. It COULD happen. Not likely though.

Be the change you want to see in the world.

Sorry, but compromise is not a solution. Ridicule is. As the heat is turned up, more Theists will peal away from their ridiculous unsupportable positions. It is already happening.

 

[ThinClient]

Sorry, but compromise is not a solution. Ridicule is. As the heat is turned up, more Theists will peal away from their ridiculous unsupportable positions. It is already happening.

Look at it this way. Two very great men helped me reason my way out of something that I did not reason my way into.

I want to be that same positive change for someone else. Because I am so cerebral, it only took a LITTLE BIT of ridicule before I was open to the intellectual (the facts). Someone who isn't as smart might need a lot more ridicule before they're willing to let go of their ignorance. I wouldn't advocate STARTING with ridicule. You start with facts and evidence and debates and stuff. Once you crush everything that they THOUGHT was evidence to support their side, if they're still not willing to be reasonable, then it's time for ridicule and they deserve every last bit of it like I did.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Change isn't instant and it's not all-encompassing. Change has to start somewhere, my friend.

We can certainly agree on that. I just don't see any proof that humanity has made any progress so far.

It's not serious failure when you present facts that are supported by literally mountains or earth-sized balls of evidence. You can lead a horse to water but you can't force him to drink. You can present all the logical, reasonable facts in the world but if someone is too stupid to accept them, that's not a failure on the part of the presenter.

If the atheists and scientific community was only presenting cold hard facts then they would be doing EXACTLY what I have been advocating. But that isn't what happens.

The facts get presented with a little bit of editorializing almost every time. The facts are part of a narrative designed to belittle and demean those who believe things that THE FACTS DON'T CONTRADICT.

I have no problem with your message. It is probably the right message. The problem is with your tone, your attitude, and your lack of respect towards people that aren't as far along on the truth line as you are.

That's a failure in the part of society who raised someone dumb enough not to understand the concept of the scientific method or someone stupid enough to reject a rational and reasonable thought process.

If I am the marketing director for a large company, and I make this million dollar ad campaign to sell my product, can I blame the "dumb public" for not understanding the genius of my ads when sales drop? Or will my boss blame me for not putting together a message palatable to the dumb public?

If you really want atheism to grow, the target market left for growth is the dumb unwashed masses. If your plan to convince them is to throw out a message foreign to them and then belittle them when they try to reconcile it with what they previously believed then you are failing at message delivery. Pure and simple.

Thomas Edison was not the greatest inventor of all time. Not by a longshot. But most people regard him as the greatest inventor of all time- they give him credit for the light bulb.

Why?

Because Thomas freaking Edison knew how to sell his inventions and his processes to the masses. He knew how to make what he was doing palatable to common folk. And so he gets all the credit.

Being right is useless if no one is willing to listen.

I'm not justifying any other lies. One lie at a time. Religion first, other things next. Religion does more damage because people are willing to put the proverbial blinders on.

I don't see religious blinders as any more dangerous than political blinders ("I only watch Fox News") or societal blinders ("That never happens in MY community") or any type of blinders. Selective ignorance is always bad.

If you don't understand why this is, I'm not sure that I can lower myself to explain this any more to you.

The only part I need you to explain is why aren't transition point acceptable? Why isn't gradual progress acceptable?

The numbers show that believing in evolution with divine intervention is the "gateway drug" to believing in evolution without divine intervention, if you will. What is so wrong with admitting this middle ground is at least better than creationism, and get the payoff that will eventually come when people progress through their own journey on the matter?

When people believe that they can litter and destroy the planet because it won't matter when Jesus comes back, it DOES matter and is HUGELY important. When someone wants something as irrational as creationism taught in science class, that takes away from the time allowed to teach REAL science. That's creating stupid students. That's robbing those students of truth. That's immoral.

I agree. No one benefits when creationists have the minds of the people and the political power that comes with that.

My question is: Why don't your side want to win then? Why doesn't your side hold their noses, do a better job of crafting their messages, and actually TRY to appeal to the common person that could go either way?

Yes, much of humanity is weak and stupid enough to cling to religion, but I'm not that weak or stupid and I have hope that our species is slowly growing out of this nonsense. The universe doesn't owe them anything. We're coddling the ignorant. We're pussifying society. Awww, you need Jesus to make you feel better because your dog died and you hope his doggy spirit is in heaven? Give me a fucking break.

Not only does that message not sell, but when people emotionally compare your vitriol with some creationist "God is love" message your message loses out time after time and we watch as creationism grows in America.

Can you just not stoop to find a way to respect, or pretend to respect, those who DO use religion as a way of dealing with problems? Can you find a way to respect those who DON'T want to think for themselves?

Because the alternative is that your side loses basically. Or more accurately, will continue to lose.

I don't want that.

Well if those people prefer to be told what to do, I have a nice short list of things that I'd like to tell them to do. The first of which is burning their bible.

If atheists would craft a message worth a damn, maybe they would follow you. Heck they voted for Bush, they are open to anything it seems.

Just because people are sheep doesn't mean enabling them to be sheep or making an effort to educate them is wrong or should not be attempted. On the contrary, it drives me even more to make wholehearted effort to save themselves from their own stupidity.

What if they don't want to be saved from their stupidity? What if they don't want to think for themselves? Are you ready to craft a dogma that is palatable enough to swallow wholesale? Because if not atheism will stay the domain of the educated elite.

You can change the way people think.

Sure you can. Billions of dollars wouldn't be spent on marketing every year if that wasn't the case.

The essential question is: are you willing to craft and compromise your philosophy to be presented in a way palatable to most Americans?

Because if not you are not going to change how people think. All you will do is yet another atheist mental circle jerk so you can feel like you "fought the good fight" when yet another state picks a textbook that mentions creationism.

 

[poofyhairguy]

It's not rational to attribute the growth of creationism to a smugness of atheists.

No. It is not.

It is rational to attribute the lack of growth of belief in evolution as a failure in scientist/atheist message delivery. And I am here to tell you, part of that message failure is the smugness.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Sorry, but compromise is not a solution. Ridicule is. As the heat is turned up, more Theists will peal away from their ridiculous unsupportable positions. It is already happening.

Source that is it already happening? Because all I see is theists circling their wagons even tighter.

I know that in American society non-believers are growing as a demographic, especially among youth. But is that a permanent shift or a temporary shift while religion modernizes its message delivery?

Who knows really.

 

[sandorski]

Look at it this way. Two very great men helped me reason my way out of something that I did not reason my way into.

I want to be that same positive change for someone else. Because I am so cerebral, it only took a LITTLE BIT of ridicule before I was open to the intellectual (the facts). Someone who isn't as smart might need a lot more ridicule before they're willing to let go of their ignorance. I wouldn't advocate STARTING with ridicule. You start with facts and evidence and debates and stuff. Once you crush everything that they THOUGHT was evidence to support their side, if they're still not willing to be reasonable, then it's time for ridicule and they deserve every last bit of it like I did.

Agreed. Poofy wants it right off the table though, in fact he/she wants to shoo anything that could offend a Theist back into the closet. For the sake of maybe, just possibly making Evolution more palatable to those who are not only being unreasonable, but are becoming increasingly brazen about unreasonability. Pre-Suppositional Apologetics for eg., the "I know everything cause God revealed it to me and you know nothing cause only God knows things..neener neener neener" argument that seems all the rage these days.

 

[poofyhairguy]

I really like your posts poofyhairguy. I like that you mentioned the quoted. To add to it. Look at how many people follow Professional Football or sports in general. They invite their friends over to watch the game. I even had a boss of mine in the past say he cried with his University of Texas football team lost the super bowl game a few years ago. Seriously. SPORTS! Something which has no use to mankind. Nobody's life is better or worse depending on if a sports team won or lost. Sports is used to bond people together. It creates a community. Maybe something for them to root for. Something that gives them purpose.

See how that correlates to religion. Now see how it correlates to everything else we do, listening to music, politics, race, national pride, the list goes on an on. Why is it that a bunch of people come out of the wood work when something happens like your team gets into the super bowl? Now everybody is a fan of said team. Why? Because we are sheep and we want to be part of the winning team. It makes us feel good. There is a reason Justin Bieber exists, and it's not because he's a great musician. No, its because every other 14 year girl is screaming over him. That is the ONLY reason he ever got popular is because someone said "To like this guy, it puts you in the group of awesome." People eat that crap up constantly.

ThinClient just happens to be on the atheist team. Pom-poms and all. That's great! I'm glad it gives him purpose, much like the University of Texas Football team was to my boss. He won't call it a crutch, but it is, much like everybody has their crutch. 4 billion years of evolution has put that need to fit in and be part of a community inside us. We are all victims of that. In some way or another. But you will never get anybody to join your team if you hit them over the head with said crutch. You'll only scare them away. Dale Carnegie wrote a book on it. How to win friends and influence people. You never succeed in getting someone to join your side by telling them they are stupid idiots. [b/] Never.

Great post, especially the bolded part.

And that is where I stand- I try to see the good things about religion: The sense of community, the charity, the humility (the atheist side REALLY lacks this), the idea of sacrifice, and the hope it gives people to continue running a rat race that never ends.

Heck even some of the "bad" stuff is good. Social control really isn't a bad thing. Yes I personally think it is dumb to only be good to avoid going into hell, but if that thought process keeps my neighbor from stealing my TV I am better off with that social control as a part of human existence.

All that matters is practical net positive benefit.

 

[Agent11]

Ridicule is not the answer at all. Some people will not change their beliefs for anything. All you will be accomplishing is behaving uncivilly for no purpose.

Atheists need to be more accepting of other beliefs. We know we are right, however at some point you need to hold yourself accountable for how you represent atheism and how you represent your self.

 

[sandorski]

Source that is it already happening? Because all I see is theists circling their wagons even tighter.

I know that in American society non-believers are growing as a demographic, especially among youth. But is that a permanent shift or a temporary shift while religion modernizes its message delivery?

Who knows really.

That, Creationist museums having financial troubles, Churches losing members in droves, most Teen Theists lose their Theism by 30, etc.

 

[poofyhairguy]

You start with facts and evidence and debates and stuff. Once you crush everything that they THOUGHT was evidence to support their side, if they're still not willing to be reasonable, then it's time for ridicule and they deserve every last bit of it like I did.

No, if you if you "crush" everything they thought was evidence and they still don't follow you, then you didn't "crush" anything outside of your own mind. It means you failed at delivering your message and you need to go back to the drawing board to rework it. Once you add in the ridicule you burn your bridge to get a second chance with an improved message. More likely than not your message incompetence just created more opposition for your cause.

Just having the correct facts, the right answers, doesn't mean your side automatically wins. Heck we are in a technology forum and we ALL have seen superior technology lose out to better marketed worse technology. Unless you want your message to go the way of the betamax you need to work on your delivery....

 

[ThinClient]

I have no problem with your message. It is probably the right message. The problem is with your tone, your attitude, and your lack of respect towards people that aren't as far along on the truth line as you are.

I don't care that you don't like my methods. Really, it doesn't bother me one bit. As I said before, I start with reasonable conversation like I did originally with Rob M. However, his [discussion club censored] response EVERY SINGLE TIME leads me to more and more disrespectful replies to him. Hell, he started the disrespectful reply volleys. It's just that I am far better at them than he is. I don't expect you to read every thread or every post so I'm not surprised that you aren't aware. Other people have seen it and have even commented on it in this very thread (and the other religion thread that's at the top right now). Hell, in this very thread, someone very clearly described his modus operandi. He comes into religious threads with the same arguments that were destroyed in previous threads, presents the same arguments, proves that he doesn't know what he's talking about, gets schooled, eventually calms down and asks to be educated, which we do, and then disappears from the thread either entirely or until another day when he shows back up with the same boring tired arguments that have already been debunked, but he pretends like he hasn't been through it before and we end up going in circles. The evolution thing is the biggest example of his ... habits. It's not that I don't respect him, it's that he has earned a level of disrespect. People like you are awesome and deserve every ounce of respect that you have earned in these conversations and not because you're basically on the same side -but because of how you argue.

If I am the marketing director for a large company, and I make this million dollar ad campaign to sell my product, can I blame the "dumb public" for not understanding the genius of my ads when sales drop? Or will my boss blame me for not putting together a message palatable to the dumb public?

The same argument can be made for teachers. If an entire class of students fails, it's the teacher's fault. However, you don't have an entire class failing when it comes to religion vs atheism. You don't have the entire public failing to understand the ad campaign. You have a large group who are willfully ignorant about the ad campaign. You have a large group who are so hell bent on destroying your company that it doesn't matter what ad campaign you put out, they're going to find some way to twist it so their stupidity-inducing agenda won't be threatened. It's not the company's fault. It's not the ad campaign manager's fault that these people are too prideful to admit that they're wrong when they're proven wrong time and time again.

If you really want atheism to grow, the target market left for growth is the dumb unwashed masses. If your plan to convince them is to throw out a message foreign to them and then belittle them when they try to reconcile it with what they previously believed then you are failing at message delivery. Pure and simple.

Nobody ever said that the message had to be foreign or too complicated to understand. You can't explain abiogenesis to a 6 year old and expect them to understand every detail about the idea. You have to start small. You have to start on their level. If the 6 year old calls you a shithead and says you're wrong and then convinces all his other 6 year old buddies that you are wrong, that's somehow the instructor's fault? Fuck no, spank that kid and teach him some respect.

Thomas Edison was not the greatest inventor of all time. Not by a longshot. But most people regard him as the greatest inventor of all time- they give him credit for the light bulb.

Why?

Because Thomas freaking Edison knew how to sell his inventions and his processes to the masses. He knew how to make what he was doing palatable to common folk. And so he gets all the credit.

Being right is useless if no one is willing to listen.

Edison wasn't the greatest inventor. He was a dishonest, hostile profiteer who stole and destroyed most of Tesla's research. I don't care what people think. When someone is stupid enough to say "Edison was the greatest inventor ever!" then they need to be educated. If they reject said education, then they deserve ridicule.

I don't see religious blinders as any more dangerous than political blinders ("I only watch Fox News") or societal blinders ("That never happens in MY community") or any type of blinders. Selective ignorance is always bad.

Those are dangerous, but fox news doesn't advocate taking your child out into the wilderness to kill them to prove your loyalty to them. Fox news doesn't kill off your entire family and all the animals you own and make you deathly ill just to test your faith. Fox news doesn't REQUIRE you to revere these actions as holy simply because "god works in mysterious ways."

There is no comparing the dangers of evolution to something as petty as politics.

The only part I need you to explain is why aren't transition point acceptable? Why isn't gradual progress acceptable?

Gradual progress isn't just acceptable, it's the only way progress can be made.

That doesn't mean conceding anything to religion. That means pushing against religion as hard as humanly possible without taking a single break from doing so. Eventually society will change, but change cannot occur if an effort is not being made. A consistent effort is the only effort worth making.

The numbers show that believing in evolution with divine intervention is the "gateway drug" to believing in evolution without divine intervention, if you will. What is so wrong with admitting this middle ground is at least better than creationism, and get the payoff that will eventually come when people progress through their own journey on the matter?

The BEST way is to stop lying to children. Stop raising children in religious settings. Don't introduce them to religion until they're adults. I guarantee religion will take an abrupt drop once this method is employed. The folks who are too stubborn to see logic and reason will eventually die off (like those who couldn't let go of their right to own black slaves picking cotton) leaving those of us left to revolutionize the world with something as simple as farming equipment (which is the real reason slaves don't exist anymore: it was too costly to continue when you could save gobs of money by getting a machine to do it more efficiently and for less).

My question is: Why don't your side want to win then? Why doesn't your side hold their noses, do a better job of crafting their messages, and actually TRY to appeal to the common person that could go either way?

We're doing that every single day. Books like the God Delusion do a fantastic job of succinctly breaking down religion and the need for it. Books like the Selfish Gene prove that we don't need religion to have morals and ethics which is a HUGE arguing point that the religiotards use.

In time, sir. In time. Our tools are getting better and better with each new generation.

Not only does that message not sell, but when people emotionally compare your vitriol with some creationist "God is love" message your message loses out time after time and we watch as creationism grows in America.

How can you say it doesn't sell when I bought it? The most ignorant of the religious might not buy it, but there are massive swaths of people across many religions who are intelligent enough to "buy it" -to reason their way out of their oppressive religion. I am living proof.

Can you just not stoop to find a way to respect, or pretend to respect, those who DO use religion as a way of dealing with problems? Can you find a way to respect those who DON'T want to think for themselves?

Because the alternative is that your side loses basically. Or more accurately, will continue to lose.

I don't want that.

I cannot respect someone who does not think for themselves. If you're old enough, there's no reason to act like or think like a child.

If atheists would craft a message worth a damn, maybe they would follow you. Heck they voted for Bush, they are open to anything it seems.

I voted for Bush because Kerry was the greater of two idiots --err, evils.

What if they don't want to be saved from their stupidity? What if they don't want to think for themselves? Are you ready to craft a dogma that is palatable enough to swallow wholesale? Because if not atheism will stay the domain of the educated elite.

I got no problem with people who want to live in abject slavery to a celestial dictator who can convict you of thought crime in your sleep.

My problem comes when their religion preaches that they indoctrinate others. Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.

Sure you can. Billions of dollars wouldn't be spent on marketing every year if that wasn't the case.

The essential question is: are you willing to craft and compromise your philosophy to be presented in a way palatable to most Americans?

Because if not you are not going to change how people think. All you will do is yet another atheist mental circle jerk so you can feel like you "fought the good fight" when yet another state picks a textbook that mentions creationism.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with my methods. I have benefited from said methods. Others who are smart enough can benefit from said methods as well. I'm not the only one fighting this fight so I'm sure someone else has an alternative that will reach the crowds that I do not. I don't expect to be able to reach everyone, but I reach the ones that are intelligent enough to play on my level. Those who aren't, well they can go to their graves and I couldn't possibly care less as long as they keep their religion to themselves.