Your thoughts on God

[ThinClient]

That would place you in the faith camp regarding, say, your certain knowledge that I use drugs, and expose your thinking as other than rational, logical, analytical, or scientific. It would mean, also, that you are that which you claim to despise. Interestingly also, the truth you claim not to be able to speak about me owing to the rules of this forum are no barrier for me because the truth about you is revealed by your behavior which you yourself have graciously expose for everybody to see.

Oh shut up already. Nobody takes you seriously. Everyone is convinced that you're on drugs because of your wild Word Salad nonsense.

Just stop. You aren't reaching anyone. Nobody can relate to you.

Exposed my behavior? As if I had something to hide? I have made no bones about the way I feel and post. Nobody gives a shit about what you have to reply.

If you're just going to dig into me with every post you make, save your keyboard strokes because your posts aren't even worth reading. You puffing up your chest and flinging slander around while ignoring the topic at hand and all it's doing is derailing this thread.

You can take your ball and go home, too.

 

[ThinClient]

Religion bashing is a fixture here. It's not personal.

Seeing how atheists conduct themselves here, and over the entire internet for that matter, is a strong indicator of what it has become.

I like how you conveniently ignored everything he said.

 

[Moonbeam]

The only reason you see all of this "hate and prejudice" coming from Atheists in this forum is because of your posting style. It has nothing to do with Atheists disliking you because you're religious, it's just people disliking you because you're dishonest.

Saying that you'd never become an Atheist because you dislike the way you've been treated in an internet forum is as dumb as saying that you don't believe 1+1=2 because your elementary school math teacher was mean to you.

But you and Rob operate on different moral foundations, wouldn't you say? He believes in a Supreme Being that is goodness and light and love, a entity who has no room in its being for dislike of the dishonest because he loves us all the same. So for him the question may arise as to where your dislike comes from. How much honesty do you think it might take to truly answer that?

 

[Moonbeam]

I like how you conveniently ignored everything he said.

I'm noticing that too. Hehe. I thought I'd long ago have gotten that proof I take drugs. You're not getting away with that faith based crap with me.

 

[JD50]

Religion bashing is a fixture here. It's not personal.

Seeing how atheists conduct themselves here, and over the entire internet for that matter, is a strong indicator of what it has become.

The Internet (and real world) is also full of obnoxious religious extremists, but that wouldn't stop me from becoming religious if there was evidence to support the existence of a god or gods. Anyways...

Saying that you'd never become an Atheist because you dislike other Atheists is as dumb as saying that you don't believe 1+1=2 because your elementary school math teacher was mean to you.

 

[brandonb]

Nope, they are mutually exclusive. One claims that evidence is required to support a conclusion. The other claims that faith is required and that you MUST believe without any shred of evidence.

I'd just like to say you are incorrect on that.

Let's take the laws of physics in our world. We can measure them. But take a look at the big picture. How and why did the laws of physic come into existence? Why does mass attract other mass and create a magnetic field? We have an answer for it? Can we prove why this occurs? But it does, we see the evidence. Yet we don't know. But here they are... Our universe was created with mass, laws of physics, magnetic fields, photons, electrons, neutrons. We live in 3 dimensions, or 4 if you count time. Could these laws, mass, magnetic fields and what not create themselves from nothingness? How could they?

If the laws evolved, there would be chaos before they existed, but if it's a law, it always was there, right? So we can only conclude there was nothing, then our universe, and it's laws appeared out of nothingness. They all came into existence simultaneously. But how can all of this come into existence from nothing? The laws forbid it. It's either all or nothing. So, something happened, or the laws are wrong, and therefore, science is wrong.

Can you prove how this happened? You have to make a leap of faith don't you? It's required is it not? Sure, you can measure some aspects of these laws. You can see it with your eyeballs and you have some evidence, but you don't have a complete picture do you? So to fill in that complete picture, isn't that faith? And you have to believe it, it's required, otherwise it invalidates the rest of the picture.

Some believe that God created this universe, created the mass, the laws of physics, and our 4 dimensions. He was the catalyst. Our universe could not have happened without something outside of these laws and dimensions causing it to come into existence. So a sandbox was created with boundaries and mass, but something outside of the box created the sandbox.

Either way there is faith, until we can prove one or the other. And that is not going to happen in our lifetime. So all this squabbling is moot...

I don't see them being mutually exclusive. Some choices require you to think of possibilities outside of the box, others are inside the box. That is not mutually exclusive. Isn't that the very essence of science? To explore all possibilities?

 

[ThinClient]

I'm noticing that too. Hehe. I thought I'd long ago have gotten that proof I take drugs. You're not getting away with that faith based crap with me.

Why are you still posting in this thread, troll?

 

[ThinClient]

The Internet (and real world) is also full of obnoxious religious extremists, but that wouldn't stop me from becoming religious if there was evidence to support the existence of a god or gods. Anyways...

Saying that you'd never become an Atheist because you dislike other Atheists is as dumb as saying that you don't believe 1+1=2 because your elementary school math teacher was mean to you.

:awe:

 

[Paul98]

I'd just like to say you are incorrect on that.

Let's take the laws of physics in our world. We can measure them. But take a look at the big picture. How and why did the laws of physic come into existence? Why does mass attract other mass and create a magnetic field? We have an answer for it? Can we prove why this occurs? But it does, we see the evidence. Yet we don't know. But here they are... Our universe was created with mass, laws of physics, magnetic fields, photons, electrons, neutrons. We live in 3 dimensions, or 4 if you count time. Could these laws, mass, magnetic fields and what not create themselves from nothingness? How could they?

If the laws evolved, there would be chaos before they existed, but if it's a law, it always was there, right? So we can only conclude there was nothing, then our universe, and it's laws appeared out of nothingness. They all came into existence simultaneously. But how can all of this come into existence from nothing? The laws forbid it. It's either all or nothing. So, something happened, or the laws are wrong, and therefore, science is wrong.

Can you prove how this happened? You have to make a leap of faith don't you? It's required is it not? Sure, you can measure some aspects of these laws. You can see it with your eyeballs and you have some evidence, but you don't have a complete picture do you? So to fill in that complete picture, isn't that faith? And you have to believe it, it's required, otherwise it invalidates the rest of the picture.

Some believe that God created this universe, created the mass, the laws of physics, and our 4 dimensions. He was the catalyst. Our universe could not have happened without something outside of these laws and dimensions causing it to come into existence. So a sandbox was created with boundaries and mass, but something outside of the box created the sandbox.

Either way there is faith, until we can prove one or the other. And that is not going to happen in our lifetime. So all this squabbling is moot...

I don't see them being mutually exclusive. Some choices require you to think of possibilities outside of the box, others are inside the box. That is not mutually exclusive. Isn't that the very essence of science? To explore all possibilities?

No, you don't need to fill it in, we know we don't have the whole picture and accept that. We try to answer the questions why these things exist. Ideas are thought up and evidence is looked for. "Law's" may or may not always exist they are simply what we see happening now. Scientific theories are much more robust and try to explain some of the questions you have. The questions are trying to be answered.

 

[ThinClient]

I don't see them being mutually exclusive. Some choices require you to think of possibilities outside of the box, others are inside the box. That is not mutually exclusive. Isn't that the very essence of science? To explore all possibilities?

Faith and the Bible require you to believe something for which there is no evidence. That, in and of itself, I cannot accept and neither can a scientific, rational, reasonable thought process. Your "fill it in" comment is something called the God of the Gaps theory and that explanation withers with every new scientific discovery. "We don't know, so therefore god did it" gets smaller and smaller with each new "we don't know" that we solve.

What's worse is that the god of the Bible, being all powerful and all loving, avoids doing a lot of things that those two items combined would bid him do.

If god loves me, why did he create me with such a critical mind? If he exists, why did he bother creating me without the capability of believing in him as an adult? If he loves me so much and he can make anything happen, why can't he just appear in front of me and have a conversation with me? Why can't he make it obvious? Either he doesn't exist or he's malevolent. If it's the latter, that WOULD match up with the evil capricious god described in the Old Testament but wouldn't match the god described in the New Testament. Why is there a difference? Why is god contradicting himself?

There are pages and pages of questions that negate the answer of the question before it. God disappears in a puff of logic. He really does.

 

[Retro Rob]

The Internet (and real world) is also full of obnoxious religious extremists, but that wouldn't stop me from becoming religious if there was evidence to support the existence of a god or gods. Anyways...

Let me be more clear: The tone of the message is critical in determining whether or not one would even listen, let alone examine any evidence.

For instance, if I said "JD, you're a complete and utter fool, and stupid hell-bound *bleep* if you don't come to my church", then good luck in even getting you in the building, let alone getting you to examine this "evidence" I claim to have to support this.

The success of the message depends on its tone, and the tone of the message depends on messenger.

 

[ThinClient]

Let me be more clear: The tone of the message is critical in determining whether or not one would even listen, let alone examine any evidence.

For instance, if I said "JD, you're a complete and utter fool, and stupid hell-bound *bleep* if you don't come to my church", then good luck in even getting you in the building, let alone getting you to examine this "evidence" I claim to have to support this.

The success of the message depends on its tone, and the tone of the message depends on messenger.

You are the only one suffering. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face because you're too prideful to listen to the truth because your feelings are more important than the message or the truth.

That's the root of the problem. That's why you can't let go of your religion, because you are controlled by emotion. Your PRIDE is getting in the way of your progress and you're PROUD of that. You're basically saying "I won't listen to you unless you suck my dick and kiss my ass before telling me what I want to hear."

 

[Moonbeam]

ThinClient: Oh shut up already. Nobody takes you seriously. Everyone is convinced that you're on drugs because of your wild Word Salad nonsense.

M: Don't let emotions cloud your judgment or alter your perception of reality. My word salad, as you call it, came after you accused me of taking drugs and therefore couldn't have caused that perception.

TC: Just stop. You aren't reaching anyone. Nobody can relate to you.

M: I will be the judge of that. You may of course believe that you're everybody that matters but you're not.

TC: Exposed my behavior? As if I had something to hide? I have made no bones about the way I feel and post. Nobody gives a shit about what you have to reply.

M: Now now, I happen to know that 9 out of 10 dentists agree with everything I say so the important majority that determines meaning and importance are almost all on my side. But being far more generous by nature that you seem to be, I'll allow you that one dentist to my nine.

TC: If you're just going to dig into me with every post you make, save your keyboard strokes because your posts aren't even worth reading. You puffing up your chest and flinging slander around while ignoring the topic at hand and all it's doing is derailing this thread.

M: I call this reflecting back to you who you are. Sometimes it's the message that shoots the messenger. It's your sense of the self importance of your own message that makes you such an easy target and causes you to run rough shod over the sacred beliefs of others. You got me involved when you claim to do it in the name of reason rather than the pettiness of your own ego. I believe that you derailed this thread when you brought into it you condescending contempt for the opinions of others. You exercised no shame or sense of humility, and here I am.

TC: You can take your ball and go home, too.

M: I am home. I'm the dirt you shit on and the flowers that grow from it. God took my ball and left me here with the keys to his car. It's a great car, by the way. The bumpers never scratch when I bang into things.

One of my thoughts on God is that people of faith, right or wrong, can often be much nicer and happier people than some Atheists and if the Atheists can't match that they have nothing at all to teach them. What such kinds of Atheists want to do is bring them down. It is the nature of those in need, recognized or not, to destroy the faith that sustains others. They hate the fact that the irrationality of another's mind may serve to protect them and they want to tear it away, and that's not very nice. They will go on and on and on about the illogicality and irrationality of the other's faith, and all from a far worse place. It's called the arrogance of empty reason.

"There are a million paths in life and they all lead nowhere. Choose a path that has a heart." Reported as a saying of a Native American who took drugs.

 

[ThinClient]

blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda

more thread-derailing word salad from the resident druggie

Maybe I'll start using my ignore list since you can't control yourself, Moonbeam.[

Edit: "This message is hidden because Moonbeam is on your ignore list."

ahhhhh, this thread cleaned up nicely. Sorry for buying into Moonbeam's derailing bull, everybody.

Now, where were we?

 

[ThinClient]

Let me be more clear: The tone of the message is critical in determining whether or not one would even listen, let alone examine any evidence.

For instance, if I said "JD, you're a complete and utter fool, and stupid hell-bound *bleep* if you don't come to my church", then good luck in even getting you in the building, let alone getting you to examine this "evidence" I claim to have to support this.

The success of the message depends on its tone, and the tone of the message depends on messenger.

I'd listen, because I'm not childish enough to let petty insults harden my pride so much that something as important as religion would be ignored.

Really, you want people to kiss your ass for you to listen to them. People have been nothing but nice to you in the past, completely civil on both their and your part, and you still reject their logic and reason and you still come back the next day with the same tired arguments that were destroyed the day before, pretending that the previous day's arguments never took place. The reason people are pissy with you is because you, yourself, are dishonest about your willingness to learn or even discuss these issues rationally.

 

[Retro Rob]

You are the only one suffering. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face because you're too prideful to listen to the truth because your feelings are more important than the message or the truth.

That's the root of the problem. That's why you can't let go of your religion, because you are controlled by emotion. Your PRIDE is getting in the way of your progress and you're PROUD of that. You're basically saying "I won't listen to you unless you suck my dick and kiss my ass before telling me what I want to hear."

No, you're missing this. It's not about pride -- it's about respect. If you're bashing someone because they believe XYZ, then, because they're self-respecting human beings, they simply will NOT be verbally abused and hence, they will NOT listen to you.

Every human being deserves respect. Bashing someone isn't only rude to them, but it's disrespectful of their individual viewpoint(s). You will never get through to people this way, hence, why you and your fellow atheists are bottom feeders and are still losing out to theism.

Religion, IMO, is very shrewd about this and recognizes that you attract bees with honey and not vinegar.

Logic 101.

EDIT: You want an example -- look at the Pope and how he's changing the focus from condemning to "accepting". All you hear is people saying they'd com BACK to the Church because of this, how much they "like" him. Before, people left because of the condemnations and criticism, but now the tone has changed, and people want to come back.

I cannot believe how you cannot understand this simple point.

 

[Moonbeam]

You are the only one suffering. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face because you're too prideful to listen to the truth because your feelings are more important than the message or the truth.

That's the root of the problem. That's why you can't let go of your religion, because you are controlled by emotion. Your PRIDE is getting in the way of your progress and you're PROUD of that. You're basically saying "I won't listen to you unless you suck my dick and kiss my ass before telling me what I want to hear."

And what is it that keeps YOU from letting go? Can we assume it's YOUR belief in the superiority of YOUR thinking. Aren't you just a less kind version of Rob in reverse? Couldn't you just have posted your thoughts on God without having to troll him? What makes you so special that you get to shove your beliefs down his throat. That's what religious zealots do. Are you one of those? The multiplicity of your posts in this thread would suggest you're Crusader Rabbit.

 

[ThinClient]

No, you're missing this. It's not about pride -- it's about respect. If you're bashing someone because they believe XYZ, then, because they're self-respecting human beings, they simply will NOT be verbally abused and hence, they will NOT listen to you.

Every human being deserves respect. Bashing someone isn't only rude to them, but it's disrespectful of their individual viewpoint(s). You will never get through to people this way, hence, why you and your fellow atheists are bottom feeders and are still losing out to theism.

Religion, IMO, is very shrewd about this and recognizes that you attract bees with honey and not vinegar.

Logic 101.

No, you just have an inflated sense of self worth and pride. Respect is a cop out. Those who demand respect deserve none. Those who deserve respect have earned it. You are the former.

I'd listen to Moonbeam if he weren't full of shit.

Like I said, I'm not the only one who's talked to you about this and I haven't always been hostile about it. In fact, I used kid gloves talking to you about this stuff the first few times until I realized that you're not interested in a conversation; you just want to argue and bury your head in the sand when someone bests the lack of logic that you use. Countless people have come to you the same gentle way and all you do is blow them off or argue yourself into a corner and then plug your ears and close your eyes and go LA LA LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING, just like you're doing now.

Thanks for proving everybody's point, bud. Again.

 

[Retro Rob]

No, you just have an inflated sense of self worth and pride. Respect is a cop out. Those who demand respect deserve none. Those who deserve respect have earned it. You are the former.

I'd listen to Moonbeam if he weren't full of shit.

Like I said, I'm not the only one who's talked to you about this and I haven't always been hostile about it. In fact, I used kid gloves talking to you about this stuff the first few times until I realized that you're not interested in a conversation; you just want to argue and bury your head in the sand when someone bests the lack of logic that you use. Countless people have come to you the same gentle way and all you do is blow them off or argue yourself into a corner and then plug your ears and close your eyes and go LA LA LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING, just like you're doing now.

Thanks for proving everybody's point, bud. Again.

See my edit.

 

[ThinClient]

See my edit.

People are coming back to the church because the Pope is crushing the old irrational, illogical, xenophobic dogmas of the church. They're not coming back because he's a nice guy. All the old popes were nice guys too but their message was full of hatred and bigotry which is what drove them away to begin with.

You are absolutely wrong in every way.

 

[Retro Rob]

People are coming back to the church because the Pope is crushing the old irrational, illogical, xenophobic dogmas of the church. They're not coming back because he's a nice guy. All the old popes were nice guys too but their message was full of hatred and bigotry.

THAT was my ENTIRE point...the type of message.

Now, what can we learn from this? Maybe you'd have flocks of people heading toward "logic and reason" if you change, or at least, adapt you message to be more moderate, accepting, less critical, less anti-religion, and make it more pro-science, pro-learning, more inclusive.

 

[ThinClient]

THAT was my ENTIRE point...the type of message.

Now, what can we learn from this? Maybe you'd have flocks of people heading toward "logic and reason" if you change, or at least, adapt you message to be more moderate, accepting, less critical, less anti-religion, and make it more pro-science, pro-learning, more inclusive.

No, your point was the attitude of the person bringing the message. You refuse to see the message because you don't like the message and you're using this bullshit "He was mean to me" excuse to justify your ignoring the message.

The point is that the message is all that matters, not how it gets to you. If you're too prideful and stubborn to see the message for what it is, then you're doomed to wallow in your own ignorance. That's fine, if that's what you choose, but keep your ignorance to yourself and stop participating in these threads pretending like your arguments weren't destroyed in the previous thread.

 

[Retro Rob]

No, your point was the attitude of the person bringing the message. You refuse to see the message because you don't like the message and you're using this bullshit "He was mean to me" excuse to justify your ignoring the message.

Here's what I said to JD a few posts ago:

The success of the message depends on its tone, and the tone of the message depends on messenger.

The messenger determines its tone. My focus is ultimately on the tone.

The point is that the message is all that matters, not how it gets to you. If you're too prideful and stubborn to see the message for what it is, then you're doomed to wallow in your own ignorance. That's fine, if that's what you choose, but keep your ignorance to yourself and stop participating in these threads pretending like your arguments weren't destroyed in the previous thread.

No, you're wrong, because people won't listen (the message won't get to them) unless they have a reason to listen to it.

For example, I'd like to know how many sincere religious people would read a book entitled "God is not Great" compared to a book entitled "Why Science is Great"?

Or compare that to a book called "The End of Faith" contrasted to a book called "The Birth of Enlightment"?

How about "The God Delusion" compared to "The Realities of Science"?

I think the point of those books was to intentionally be controversial (because it sells) and not really educational. If they really wanted to educated religious people (which they didn't) they knew that a provocative title wasn't the way to do it.

I'd read a book with pro-science titles rather than anti-religious ones, FWIW.

 

[Moonbeam]

No, you just have an inflated sense of self worth and pride. Respect is a cop out. Those who demand respect deserve none. Those who deserve respect have earned it. You are the former.

I'd listen to Moonbeam if he weren't full of shit.

Like I said, I'm not the only one who's talked to you about this and I haven't always been hostile about it. In fact, I used kid gloves talking to you about this stuff the first few times until I realized that you're not interested in a conversation; you just want to argue and bury your head in the sand when someone bests the lack of logic that you use. Countless people have come to you the same gentle way and all you do is blow them off or argue yourself into a corner and then plug your ears and close your eyes and go LA LA LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING, just like you're doing now.

Thanks for proving everybody's point, bud. Again.

Ah, so he provoked you and you became unpleasant. It wasn't that your unpleasantness was there from the beginning. It was all Rob's fault. Just exactly how was this horrible thing possible for you, that this sweet little angel should suddenly become so hostile? Really, all because of Rob? Or did he trigger old feelings in you that you had and have no idea that you feel? Battered wives hear this story too.

 

[JD50]

Rob, people were very polite to you in the beginning. You repeatedly ignored valid points, or even worse said that you actually understood what people were saying and thanked them for explaining it to you. But then in the very next thread you'd act like no one had ever taken the time to explain those very same points to you. This has been your MO for a very long time now, people have gotten tired of it.

Edit - There are many, many people like you and it's what causes many Atheists to lose their patience.