Your thoughts on God

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ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,977
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What you want is for people to do is think like you. The "white mans burden". There are happy and rational people who are religious who do good things. Teachers, plumbers, and yes even scientists, and you proselytize like this? You "free" them this way by letting them know they don't fit your personal metric?

Nah, I ask questions like how do you know that what you believe is correct? I ask what evidence they've seen to drive them to the conclusion that a creator exists or that a god is real or that the Bible is infallible or that Christ was divine, etc. I don't get snippy and insulting unless they turn out like Rob M. who, like what was stated earlier, pretends not to know anything about evolution (as an example), gets it explained to him, slinks away from the thread, then comes shitting all over other threads as if nobody explained it to him. The ones who want to argue ignorantly are far more entertaining to me, admittedly, because I like conflict and I like arguing. I think rational civilized debate is the only true measure of intelligence and respect for one another. Weird, huh

One can construct nice sentences and use the best grammar and still be completely wrong. You speak of judgement by the religious and make blanket statements in judgement. Maybe I should get religion if this is the "logical" alternative.

The blanket statements I make are based on my own personal experience. You're either extremely simple minded to get lost in religion and defend it in the face of conflicting evidence or you're knowingly spreading the lie of religion and you don't care that you're wrong and that you're lying to others of your own species. I respect neither.

No, once again it has been demonstrated that this is not a place where religion can be discussed thoughtfully, and those were always rare, but rather a pig with lipstick.

It can be discussed thoughtfully and respectfully just like how I'm replying to you, just not with people like Rob M. If Rob posted the same way you do, these threads he gets involved in wouldn't degrade into the circus that they seem to degrade into.

If someone attacked blacks or gays with such blanket statements they'd be gone in a minute but ignorance is far reaching and not just with Pat Robertson.

Right, because my disdain for organized religion which is responsible for the vast majority of conflict in the world is the same as me being racist? Wow, impressive. When are you going to mention Nazis?

I would have avoided this thread but religion bashing has become the dominant topic in this subforum, the one that draws.

It had promise but some genius threw open the doors and asked for this. So be it.

Religion isn't the dominant topic in this forum at all. The number of threads on religion do not out number the number of threads on everything else. Religion comes up from time to time amidst many other topics. It just so happens that religion is on of the more heated topics since it has more people involved in both sides of the line. I wouldn't participate much in an abortion or gun control thread because I'm not as vested in those topics.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,977
4
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I don't understand....why doesn't it matter to you why he choose to unlock the chains of atheism?

He was 27, so he likely was well informed and being a former atheist, he saw no value in being one anymore.

Again, why does it matter to YOU?

Because religion is largely responsible for most of the conflict in the world. Your own religion preaches atrocities that I, as an atheist, would never condone yet your god supports and demands them of you. You, as a brainwashed religious sheeple, ACTUALLY REVERE characters in the bible who act out immoral and unethical atrocities because you believe those actions to be justified simply because god commanded it.

That is an incredibly dangerous attitude and one that deserves to be ridiculed and destroyed.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,977
4
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Well, the way I read his comment, he's saying if science simply concedes that they don't know what started evolution (hence, God may have done it)

Stop. This conclusion is absolutely irrational and illogical. This is the "god of the gaps" argument and has been debunked repeatedly.

This is what we're talking about. You can't explain it or you don't know and instead of saying "I can't explain it" or "I don't know" you jump to the fucking stupid conclusion that "IT WAS GOD!!"

This conclusion, this leap of faith, is what we're criticizing. There's no reason to draw the supernatural conclusion. This "I don't know" portion isn't evidence for supernatural or evidence for divine yet some dumbass standing on the corner with a bible will pull in crowds of weak-minded fools because their mind is willing to make the same illogical, irrational jump to conclusion about the issue. It's this supreme stupidity that many of us fight against. It's education that we support, educating yourself on the matter, educating others that making such an absurd leap of faith is doing nothing but enabling the problem to continue.

, then you wouldn't get such a negative response.

After all, can you positively rule OUT a creator, scientifically speaking?

You can't prove a negative. However, that doesn't matter. The burden of proof rests on the shoulders of those making the positive claim.

It's not my job to disprove a creator. It's your job to prove why you're making wild claims.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,655
6,220
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How? All you'd be acknowledging is that you don't know how we got here, so you're actually taking the open-minded route of humility.

Call it god, Zeus, the FSM, whatever you want. Heck, science even acknowledges that we didn't originate here on earth -- we likely had a source from space.

Your not conceding the scientific model of investigating our origins -- you're simply saying "I don't know, so it could be anything at this point".

Stop being so stubborn.

Nonsense. Humility? To what? Oh, your "god" you can't provide any evidence for.

How about this: All you Theists get together, do some Research and find Evidence of any god. Then maybe, just maybe such a thing can be adopted by Science. How it is adapted will depend on what Evidence is shown.

Science only concerns itself with verifiable Evidence. It does not concern itself with the Opinions of Others. I think the lack of Humility lies with those who want their unverifiable opinions foisted upon the very thing that has no Pre-Conceptions and rejects no Verifiable Evidence. Science is the epitome of Open Mindedness, it is neither Rigid or Humble. It simply accepts what the Evidence shows to be true.

So again, No. Such a compromise is unacceptable and is completely nonsensical to even entertain.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,977
4
0
How? All you'd be acknowledging is that you don't know how we got here, so you're actually taking the open-minded route of humility.

Call it god, Zeus, the FSM, whatever you want. Heck, science even acknowledges that we didn't originate here on earth -- we likely had a source from space.

Your not conceding the scientific model of investigating our origins -- you're simply saying "I don't know, so it could be anything at this point".

Stop being so stubborn.

You're the only one being stubborn. You have a conclusion that you cling to (it was god). You go looking for evidence. You find none. You reject evidence that strongly suggests that the creator in the bible isn't real because that evidence doesn't match the conclusion that you refuse to let go of.

This is unscientific. This is irrational. You know this, but you still don't care because of reasons listed right in the paragraph that I just typed.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
108
106
Nonsense. Humility? To what? Oh, your "god" you can't provide any evidence for.

How about this: All you Theists get together, do some Research and find Evidence of any god. Then maybe, just maybe such a thing can be adopted by Science. How it is adapted will depend on what Evidence is shown.

Science only concerns itself with verifiable Evidence. It does not concern itself with the Opinions of Others. I think the lack of Humility lies with those who want their unverifiable opinions foisted upon the very thing that has no Pre-Conceptions and rejects no Verifiable Evidence. Science is the epitome of Open Mindedness, it is neither Rigid or Humble. It simply accepts what the Evidence shows to be true.

So again, No. Such a compromise is unacceptable and is completely nonsensical to even entertain.

Fair enough.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,113
6,610
126
Does it really matter whether God created man in His image or we created God in ours?

I would think that what would matter is that we have in our imaginations the very best image that we can. I learned a long time ago from a black preacher on TV that if you wanted that Cadillac you have to first imagine yourself in the driver's seat. So I got a Cadillac and it was no big deal.

These days I drive around as the Supreme Being. And when people laugh, ridicule, and call me crazy, I roll the windows up and laugh my ass off. Even an imbecile should know that if you want proof all you have to do is imagine yourself in the car with me. Be careful about what you imagine though. Aim low and you could end up as road kill.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,977
4
0
Does it really matter whether God created man in His image or we created God in ours?

I would think that what would matter is that we have in our imaginations the very best image that we can. I learned a long time ago from a black preacher on TV that if you wanted that Cadillac you have to first imagine yourself in the driver's seat. So I got a Cadillac and it was no big deal.

These days I drive around as the Supreme Being. And when people laugh, ridicule, and call me crazy, I roll the windows up and laugh my ass off. Even an imbecile should know that if you want proof all you have to do is imagine yourself in the car with me. Be careful about what you imagine though. Aim low and you could end up as road kill.

There's a PONTIAC joke in there somewhere.

Besides, we all know your drug-fueled rose colored glasses leads you to all kinds of crazy points of view, none of which are really relevant or rational in the real world.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Nonsense. Humility? To what? Oh, your "god" you can't provide any evidence for.

How about this: All you Theists get together, do some Research and find Evidence of any god. Then maybe, just maybe such a thing can be adopted by Science. How it is adapted will depend on what Evidence is shown.

Science only concerns itself with verifiable Evidence. It does not concern itself with the Opinions of Others. I think the lack of Humility lies with those who want their unverifiable opinions foisted upon the very thing that has no Pre-Conceptions and rejects no Verifiable Evidence. Science is the epitome of Open Mindedness, it is neither Rigid or Humble. It simply accepts what the Evidence shows to be true.

So again, No. Such a compromise is unacceptable and is completely nonsensical to even entertain.

Science can at most prove that a creator of some kind was not necessary.

Yes, there is no evidence of a creator outside of faith. That doesn't mean atheists need to spit on those who have faith in a creator of some kind.

The Catholic church accepts the possibility of evolution as natural law:
"the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter...."
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution

It's possible (though the only evidence is faith) that there is a spiritual part of mankind that is not visible to science.

I don't have the faith to believe that myself, but I'm not going to go around telling everyone that does have this faith that I somehow "know" they are wrong. I can only say that there is no scientific evidence for their belief.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
126
Well, the way I read his comment, he's saying if science simply concedes that they don't know what started evolution (hence, God may have done it), then you wouldn't get such a negative response.

Not even that far. Not even that far.

All I am saying is that if scientists and atheists would stop using evolution as a club to try to beat down those who believe in God and point to it as some sort of proof that COMPLETELY proves there isn't a God, then maybe more people would be open to the theory of evolution.

The truth of the matter is that those entrenched on both sides demand the same pound of flesh for daring to oppose their obviously superior viewpoint. Like the rant on not tolerating religion earlier in the thread.

All that does is get the religious people to round the wagons more and subject all of us to their politics and perspectives. Both sides dig in and those in the middle end up worse off.

Because, at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if there is a God. What matters is the human condition and life experience of those actually on this earth. On both sides if people are using their belief in God or their lack of belief in God to pushes an agenda that makes us all worse off (like the hard line on evolution making people anti-science) then they are the problem. Period.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
108
106
Not even that far. Not even that far.

All I am saying is that if scientists and atheists would stop using evolution as a club to try to beat down those who believe in God and point to it as some sort of proof that COMPLETELY proves there isn't a God, then maybe more people would be open to the theory of evolution.

Thanks for clearing that up. This is basically the camp I am in.

The truth of the matter is that those entrenched on both sides demand the same pound of flesh for daring to oppose their obviously superior viewpoint. Like the rant on not tolerating religion earlier in the thread.

Agreed.

All that does is get the religious people to round the wagons more and subject all of us to their politics and perspectives. Both sides dig in and those in the middle end up worse off.

Because, at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if there is a God. What matters is the human condition and life experience of those actually on this earth. On both sides if people are using their belief in God or their lack of belief in God to pushes an agenda that makes us all worse off (like the hard line on evolution making people anti-science) then they are the problem. Period.

Can't really disagree with any of this.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,113
6,610
126
Tapjams slumbered through the night

Disgorging gobs of bildid plight

Glandorous pithbobs lusting for a fignt

Gloompots lit for firelight.

The Tapjan creals on padded might

Clawyers belidled in its gite

Sloriously excoriating the souls delight


Piss on little minds in ivory towers

Behold within thee rosy bowers

Drink down now my ambrosial elixir

Promise you, it's a real fixer

Better by far to be my kind of drunk

Than your kind of skunk.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
126
Well, once humanity matures enough to shrug off the bondage of religion, we won't have to compromise between a reasonable, rational thought process and some dangerous bronze age myth that's full of lies and immorality.

Ok, let me turn the table on you a little bit.

Can you show me ANY evidence that one day humanity will "mature" to the point we don't need the crutch of religion, or are you taking that on faith?

Because most of humanity believes in a higher power, every major society has had some sort of religion, heck even secular communist Russia had people willing to risk death to declare they are religious.

To take my question further, do you have ANY evidence that humanity is evolving towards some more enlightened state in the near future that will make your perspective practical?

Because even in 2013 I see a world that has all of our worst characteristics over the years- slavery, war, greed, purposeful ignorance, pride, lust, etc. I don't think we have improved at all as a species in the age of written history, we just have changed our social standards so some things are no longer ok IN SOME AREAS (like slavery in America) which then allows new things to be ok (like collecting interest in Christendom).

My perspective is that we must take the most practical path possible to minimize the harm caused by the makeup of humanity. In almost every case that means compromise towards a bigger future goal.

To go even further, I blame the atheists and scientists for the anti-science undercurrent in American MUCH more than I do the religious.


Why? Because many of the religious don't know any better, they weren't born with the tools or training to think for themselves. But the so-called "open minded" and much better educated on average group of atheists and scientists should be smart enough to realize when they are trying to twist the knife with their talking points that they are doing the exact same harm that the religious fundamentalists they oppose are doing. And I hold that group to a higher standard than the religious because they should know better. Or you think they would if people were actually evolving.

At the end of the day, whether God exists or not and whether he/she/it caused evolution or not doesn't matter. Anyone's personal beliefs on evolution doesn't change the process taking place. But when the hard line of both sides leads to an anti-science element that devalues scientific research that could help ALL humans then something in the actual world does change, for the worst.
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,655
6,220
126
Ok, let me turn the table on you a little bit.

Can you show me ANY evidence that one day humanity will "mature" to the point we don't need the crutch of religion, or are you taking that on faith?

Because most of humanity believes in a higher power, every major society has had some sort of religion, heck even secular communist Russia had people willing to risk death to declare they are religious.

To take my question further, do you have ANY evidence that humanity is evolving towards some more enlightened state in the near future that will make your perspective practical?

Because even in 2013 I see a world that has all of our worst characteristics over the years- slavery, war, greed, purposeful ignorance, pride, lust, etc. I don't think we have improved at all as a species in the age of written history, we just have changed our social standards so some things are no longer ok IN SOME AREAS (like slavery in America) which then allows new things to be ok (like collecting interest in Christendom).

My perspective is that we must take the most practical path possible to minimize the harm caused by the makeup of humanity. In almost every case that means compromise towards a bigger future goal.

To go even further, I blame the atheists and scientists for the anti-science undercurrent in American MUCH more than I do the religious.


Why? Because many of the religious don't know any better, they weren't born with the tools or training to think for themselves. But the so-called "open minded" and much better educated on average group of atheists and scientists should be smart enough to realize when they are trying to twist the knife with their talking points that they are doing the exact same harm that the religious fundamentalists they oppose are doing. And I hold that group to a higher standard than the religious because should know better.

At the end of the day, whether God exists or not and whether he/she/it caused evolution or not doesn't matter. Anyone's personal beliefs on evolution doesn't change the process taking place. But when the hard line of both sides leads to an anti-science element that devalues scientific research that could help ALL humans then something in the actual world does change, for the worst.

The moment Darwin released the Origin of Species Theists began to lash back.

I don't care who you blame, your contention that Science is to blame for the Theist Anti-Science stance is ridiculous.

I will point out that many Theists have no problem with Evolution. They have learned to accept it for what it is, that it reflects the Evidence.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,977
4
0
Ok, let me turn the table on you a little bit.

Oooooo sweet. Respect +1, sir.

Can you show me ANY evidence that one day humanity will "mature" to the point we don't need the crutch of religion, or are you taking that on faith?

Faith isn't a word I would use. Hope is. History strongly suggests that religion is the source of most conflict in the world. When those religions preach violence like the subjugation of women, slavery and how to beat them and how to kill them, genocide, mass murder on a global scale, and then commands that you hold those actions in reverence because they were commanded by god, I tend to agree with history that religion is far more dangerous than not having it. Faith is a crutch of the weak just like religion, and religion needs faith to function. I reject faith and religion, but I don't mind holding out hope that some day we'll be free of this madness.

Because most of humanity believes in a higher power, every major society has had some sort of religion, heck even secular communist Russia had people willing to risk death to declare they are religious.

To take my question further, do you have ANY evidence that humanity is evolving towards some more enlightened state in the near future that will make your perspective practical?

Yes. The atheist movement here in the States is a good example. People are deciding that their morals and their ethics can stem from solidarity and mutual respect for one another in an effort to further positively evolve their own species (and for survival). The religious movement is solely responsible for the stunting of stem cell research that has already proven to have more medical benefits possible than we have ever dreamed (rapidly growing replacement organs that are exact matches for the patient, re-growing cardiac muscle to replace damaged hearts after heart attacks, etc). Once religion is removed from our political system, we won't have to waste tax dollars and time and effort keeping our science books free from "stupidstition." Religion and the fear of the effects on souls is solely responsible for the lack of medical knowledge and progress throughout the dark ages and beyond. For the longest time, docs had to dig up bodies from their graves or pay grave robbers just to have a cadaver in secret to study and learn from. The list goes on and on, I can do this for days.

Because even in 2013 I see a world that has all of our worst characteristics over the years- slavery, war, greed, purposeful ignorance, pride, lust, etc. I don't think we have improved at all as a species in the age of written history, we just have changed our social standards so some things are no longer ok IN SOME AREAS (like slavery in America) which then allows new things to be ok (like collecting interest in Christendom).

Yes, it's true that we are largely still bound by our primitive bronze age myths. While none of this nonsense will go away completely (because nobody is perfect and some people just want to watch the world burn), much of it will be lessened. The example of slavery in the United States is a great example. Slaves still exist to this day in Africa but some day their stupid superstitions and ignorance will be gone because they'll either have killed each other and died out or they'll have evolved beyond the need to harm one another or abuse one another or use one another for profit and gain. Again, that's my hope. It's already happened here in the States and it'll happen around the world if we give it time and make a solid effort to denounce superstitious and tribal bullshit that still grips our childish societies. Sure, there's slavery in other ways in this country to this day like indentured servitude (which is what the American dream has sadly evolved into), but given time and effort I have hope that "this too shall pass."

My perspective is that we must take the most practical path possible to minimize the harm caused by the makeup of humanity. In almost every case that means compromise towards a bigger future goal.

To go even further, I blame the atheists and scientists for the anti-science undercurrent in American MUCH more than I do the religious.

Why would you compromise with a lie? Would you compromise to a child once they catch daddy putting presents under the tree that Santa is real but forgot our house this year so dad had to do it, but Santa is still real? Fuck that bullshit. Lying to kids (that Santa is real) is almost as evil as telling them that hell exists and threatening them using fear that they'll go to hell if they don't behave.

It's not rational to blame scientists and atheists for pushing truth when the irrational reaction by the religious to push against it even harder is not an action that was chosen by the scientists or atheists. You're blaming us for the actions of the religious. Why?

Why? Because many of the religious don't know any better, they weren't born with the tools or training to think for themselves. But the so-called "open minded" and much better educated on average group of atheists and scientists should be smart enough to realize when they are trying to twist the knife with their talking points that they are doing the exact same harm that the religious fundamentalists they oppose are doing. And I hold that group to a higher standard than the religious because should know better.

A child doesn't know any better before going to school, but you don't blame teachers for a child's disbelief when you spray chemicals into a bunsen and watch it change colors. You blame the child for being a disbelieving dumbass.

At the end of the day, whether God exists or not and whether he/she/it caused evolution or not doesn't matter. Anyone's personal beliefs on evolution doesn't change the process taking place. But when the hard line of both sides leads to an anti-science element that devalues scientific research that could help ALL humans then something in the actual world does change, for the worst.

Yes, it absolutely DOES matter. You cannot continue to lie to one another and it is EXTREMELY disrespectful to knowingly allow your fellow man to continue believing a lie -especially when that lie is at the foundation of immoral and unethical actions and beliefs.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,977
4
0
Atheism, not science.

It doesn't matter what word you use in place of science in that sentence. The only people responsible for anti-scientific back lash are the ones who do it.

Theists are responsible for their own actions. I am not responsible for you coming into these threads day in and day out and pretending that nobody explained it all to you the day before.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
126
The moment Darwin released the Origin of Species Theists began to lash back.

Yes of course. Just like when Galileo discovered the earth was not the center of the universe. Religion always reacts that way to threats to its doctrine.

Luckily at some point someone was conciliatory about it and we don't have people pushing a geocentric model hundreds of years later. We will see if that is the case with evolution.

I don't care who you blame, your contention that Science is to blame for the Theist Anti-Science stance is ridiculous.

You misunderstand me. I don't blame the science community for the stance of theists. The theists created their stance.

I blame the science community that over a hundred years after Origin of Species was published both sides are so entrenched that belief in creationism is growing. That means the theists are winning the battle of messages, and maybe the atheist community needs to put out a message that is a little better than the current mix of smugness, ridicule, belittlement, and condescension.

I will point out that many Theists have no problem with Evolution. They have learned to accept it for what it is, that it reflects the Evidence.

You don't have to point that out, I did earlier with the stats. And the stats show that the reason they don't have a problem is because they take the middle ground that you refuse to even validate as a better alternative than creationism.

More people believe in evolution with divine intervention than without divine intervention. The vast majority of Americans have NOT accepted the atheist answer "for what it is," instead they have created their own belief system of a middle ground with very little guidance for either extremist side. That to me is more admirable than firing shots from an entrenched position, and is a real example of "thinking for oneself."
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
126
He wants Science to compromise. By definition it can't.

I am not saying compromise.

I am saying when the message gets shaped, TAKE GOD OUT OF IT.

If someone wants to bring it in go "well I don't know about that, this is science not religion. You yourself will have to take the scientific evidence and reconcile it to your beliefs if that is what you want. I am talking about what is proven fact."

Don't use evolution as proof that "lol Christian sheep are so stupid, and I am so clever making fun of them with my spaghetti bowl monster!"
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
108
106
It doesn't matter what word you use in place of science in that sentence. The only people responsible for anti-scientific back lash are the ones who do it.

Theists are responsible for their own actions. I am not responsible for you coming into these threads day in and day out and pretending that nobody explained it all to you the day before.

Poofy already said it., the smugness, ridicule, and overall hatred you have for people who don't see the world the way you do is primarily the reason I haven't been reading or responding to your posts (until now, of course).

Magnify that by 100 and combine it with the prejudice of your Lord Dawkins, and you'll see why.
 

hotrod72

Junior Member
Jun 9, 2004
4
0
0
Quote:
by poofyhairguy
Because, at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if there is a God. What matters is the human condition and life experience of those actually on this earth.

How can this be true? If there is god, wouldn't that make for a different metric of evaluating and understanding that condition and experience, than if there is not? To disregard the difference each theory would have on the resultant possibilities seems cavalier if not myopic to any concept of meaning or value. I think it absolutely matters.
 
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