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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,485
19,904
136
I watched, as thoroughly as my attention span could allow,

Michael Clayton - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0465538/reference/

starring Clooney, and directed by a guy who has done nice things (Nightcrawler) and horrible things (The Bourne Legacy).

A kind-of spy story that involves Clayton (Clooney, obviously) being on the receiving end of a unscrupulous law firm, embroiled in a costly lawsuit for a chemical giant.
The film spends A FUCKTON OF TIME to paint Clayton as a "fixer" (while at the same time painting him as a mediocre man that we have very little cause to root for), and once the character is established, the feeble plot happens. A coworker of Clayton has a mental breakdown, and threatens to divulge a memorandum that would see his client, the evil giant corporation, lose the suit - and the lawfirm in turn lose the client. The lawfirm has the coworker killed, and then to tie up loose ends, tried to kill Clayton as well. Clayton then shows up again and says AHA, GIBE MONY!

.. because there is a .. again, the only word i can use to describe it is "feeble" .. a feeble character arc; where during the film Clayton has doubts about rising above and becoming the ruthless fixed his colleagues want him to be - or imagine him to be - he then does so in the final showdown, comes out roaring, but it is quickly revealed that he does this now for ETHICAL REASONS, such arc, much unbelief, wow.

So the whole film is a slooooow drag to show one, just one decent scene, that lasts maybe 4 minutes. 2 actors, the other being Tilda Swinton, who is substantially stronger than Clooney in this one scene (Clooney isn't helped by the uninspired dialogue).

It has none of the strength of films like Erin Brockovich, or The Ides Of March, or The Firm, his character is worse than Up In The Air, the photography is, frankly, kinda shit, the dialogue is mediocre, so i'm not really sure wtf people saw in this film. I would not recommend it.

My vote: 5.8/10
I thought Michael Clayton was entertaining. It wasn't brilliant but I thought it was a good yarn. I mean of course you have to suspend some disbelief, but people do have redemption arcs, and it did seem like Clayton was kind or reaching the end of his rope, older and worn out, so it wasn't such a stretch to be unimaginable. If he was a younger man, I suspect he wouldn't have had that turnaround.

I remember really liking the Cruise Shogun movie, and like any movie, it could benefit from a longer retelling, so started the show today. Episode 1 was excellent. Looking forward to more.
 

quikah

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2003
4,079
661
126
Just saw Dune part 2. I am kind of bummed they took the safe route with Paul's sister. That is the one really goofy thing in the book I wish they would have tried to tackle. I thought Lynch handled that pretty well in his version. I really didn't like Florence Pugh's portrayal of Irulan. Not sure what they were trying to go for there, really stilted performance. Was she trying to emulate Walken to show a family resemblance or something?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,106
27,876
136
The Last Voyage of the Demeter 7.5/10.

If you like Bram Stoker’s Dracula this is a good follow up. BSD only talked about Dracula shipping himself from Transylvania to London for a few minutes. The book it was only 1 chapter. Monster is the Nosferatu version. Really creepy but not a lot of depth. The human characters are well constructed which make the movie.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,816
9,813
136
@DigDog

Re Michael Clayton

I can't seen 'Eric Brockovich' (Julia Roberts... <shudder>), but I'll happily compare 'Michael Clayton' to 'The Firm': The latter is a film from back when the American Dream was still peddled and wasn't generally considered to be a complete scam yet, one of these films where most of the characters are nice people with nice houses in nice neighbourhoods, but there is trouble in paradise dear readers! The only character I recall who comes across as a flawed, actual human being in a way that doesn't serve to propel the plot is the one Gene Hackman plays. IIRC, even the brother's manslaughter conviction is dressed up in a "he's a nice person really" trope, because otherwise a nice person would be helping a bad person and that would make caveman viewer's brain go "wait, what?" (I might be misremembering this, it's been a long time).

'Michael Clayton' on the other hand, I could easily write a paragraph on his character alone. This film isn't the opposite of the American Dream by a long shot, but it shows plenty of people making mistakes and hardly anyone is living an American Dream life - mistakes unforced or due to life's pressures - which make them relatable on some level (unless of course you've managed to live a life like an American Dream). It portrays mental health problems in a person who is both successful and intelligent (which can be a double-edged sword in terms of managing the chronic condition), and a layman's difficulty in engaging with the situations that person creates. It portrays how people sometimes have this rose-tinted, more successful self-perception and how things could have been if it wasn't for <reasons other than they fucked up>.

True, there's no action in this movie. The lawyer doesn't get into a chase across a crowded square, doesn't get to hang on to that part of a helicopter or walk away from an explosion.

I don't think your description of the protagonist's motivations are accurate either. Admittedly I don't think the dramatic event followed by <some time earlier> format strengthened this film but I can sort of see why they did it. Also, the law firm did not have anyone killed.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,535
2,137
126
@DigDog

Re Michael Clayton

I can't seen 'Eric Brockovich' (Julia Roberts... <shudder>), but I'll happily compare 'Michael Clayton' to 'The Firm': The latter is a film from back when the American Dream was still peddled and wasn't generally considered to be a complete scam yet, one of these films where most of the characters are nice people with nice houses in nice neighbourhoods, but there is trouble in paradise dear readers! The only character I recall who comes across as a flawed, actual human being in a way that doesn't serve to propel the plot is the one Gene Hackman plays. IIRC, even the brother's manslaughter conviction is dressed up in a "he's a nice person really" trope, because otherwise a nice person would be helping a bad person and that would make caveman viewer's brain go "wait, what?" (I might be misremembering this, it's been a long time).

'Michael Clayton' on the other hand, I could easily write a paragraph on his character alone. This film isn't the opposite of the American Dream by a long shot, but it shows plenty of people making mistakes and hardly anyone is living an American Dream life - mistakes unforced or due to life's pressures - which make them relatable on some level (unless of course you've managed to live a life like an American Dream). It portrays mental health problems in a person who is both successful and intelligent (which can be a double-edged sword in terms of managing the chronic condition), and a layman's difficulty in engaging with the situations that person creates. It portrays how people sometimes have this rose-tinted, more successful self-perception and how things could have been if it wasn't for <reasons other than they fucked up>.

True, there's no action in this movie. The lawyer doesn't get into a chase across a crowded square, doesn't get to hang on to that part of a helicopter or walk away from an explosion.

I don't think your description of the protagonist's motivations are accurate either. Admittedly I don't think the dramatic event followed by <some time earlier> format strengthened this film but I can sort of see why they did it. Also, the law firm did not have anyone killed.
Karen Crowder, U-North's general counsel, discovers that Arthur has a confidential U-North memo ....
Karen authorizes the hit men to take "drastic measures". They break into Arthur's apartment, kill him, and make it look like suicide.

On the night of the poker game, the hit men rig Michael's car with a bomb and follow him .. Michael witnesses the car explode
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Clayton#Plot
The firm absolutely does have someone killed. And they try to kill Clayton as well.

As for Clayton being broke, incapable of dealing with his brother, a losing gambler, and having self-worth problems, none of these fit into his work role. It would have some appeal to center a film around a fixer, because "fixer" isn't a job title most people have. Wolf from Pulp Fiction is a fixer, and his secondary characteristics suit the role of fixer, making him even-moar-fixier. If you wanna portray the flawed family man, maybe best to keep it simple so that the audience can relate to the man; let's say, a Doctor who is skilled at his job, and well paid, but extremely arrogant (reminds you of anyone?). Or a Doctor who is in good employment and with a beautiful wife, but cannot keep it in his pants (i think Kubrik had such a character).
This film dedicates a substantial amount of the runtime to show how miserable of a man is Clayton. He's broke, underpaid AND the firm exposes him to all & any risk, failed in business, failed in family, can't see a future for himself, and doesn't even have conviction of character. While you COULD make a film with this premise and show the character having an arc where they get their head down and change all these things about themselves (idk, Limitless does it, although it uses a gizmo), Clayton does it OFF SCREEN, at the very end of the film. There is nothing to show the beginning, progression and completion of the arc, which makes it not-an-arc, it's rather an about-face, Like Vader at the end of RotJ. I mean, even in Return they had at least a shot of Vader watching the lightning. In Michael Clayton we have the burning car and Clayton running away.

That's my problem with the film.

The main character's job as Fixer is not enticing, and the script does nothing to help that. See, Clooney also starred as Ryan Bingham in the vastly superior Up In The Air, and here the unusual "terminator" role that Bingham has *IS* interesting. He is an interesting character for WHAT HE DOES, but at the same time the script has humanizing flaws in Bingham having not developed any family skills - given that he is always Up In The Air, both factually and metaphorically - which means that his secondary characteristics work in synergy with the primary (he fires people), and a considerable part of the film is dedicated to the character arc - from the moment he meets The Woman, to the conclusion.

Having something similar in Michael Clayton would possibly make the film work better (we'd still have to do away with the horrible photography, the ridiculous scenes with the horses, the ridiculous scenes of Clayton staring into the sky, etc), but at that point why not watch UITA or The Firm?

*****************
furthermore;

Erin Brockovich because the film has some legal-drama elements that push the sense of urgency. The firm is the villain, their goal is to continue billing the Chem company.
There is a McGuffin memorandum that the hero/traitor Clayton uses to punish the villain.
Of course Erin Brockovich is *much* better.

in The Firm, the bad guys start threatening Mitch McDeere (Tom Cruise) with death at the end of Act 1. There's a part where McDeere needs to Investigate To Learn The Truth, there's a part where the protagonist has to Pretending He Does Not Know He Is In Danger, and then there is the !Escape ! part where the clock is ticking and the Hero must get the McGuffin stolen documents to the police in time before he is discovered.
Note how Cruise's character' flaws are his smugness and excessive self-confidence, traits that WORK with his role as Unscrupulous Lawyer. And ofc The Firm is a better film that Michael Clayton.


.. you can't have reality in cinema. it doesnt work! you need characters that are cut for the screen, Rick Blaine / Casablanca works because of the combination of traits of that character, and not every mix works in cinema. 'Happy for someone to discover a new stock character, but Michael Clayton ain't it.
 
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Jul 27, 2020
16,824
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That's my problem with the film.
I think you are being unfairly harsh. I'm sure it's at least watchable. You've sat through far worse movies. Just admit that you dislike Clooney I wouldn't blame you. He doesn't always pick the best roles or movies to star in. The only thing I can remember him for any acting is maybe Syriana?

Up in the Air? I remember that only for introducing me to Vera Farmiga who I remember being very alluring and she's since never let me down in any of her other movies.

Just look how short his essential movies list is: https://aframe.oscars.org/what-to-watch/post/essential-george-clooney-movies-to-watch

Tomorrowland had great potential but he was once again just mumbling his lines.

I have yet to see Descendents and Michael Clayton but I'm not holding my breath to be wowed by his performance.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,816
9,813
136
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Clayton#Plot
The firm absolutely does have someone killed. And they try to kill Clayton as well.
Read it. uNorth orders the hits. uNorth is not the law firm, it's the weedkiller firm.


<snip, I promise I have read it!>

That's my problem with the film.

Plenty of people are good (in terms of competence) in one aspect of their life and a total train wreck in others, it doesn't always follow that one facet of their lives 'therefores' the other. That's the human condition. If you want to write a good story, you write your characters to have human traits. Being unable to deal with his brother* simply because he's a good 'fixer' doesn't really follow either because a set of strategies that work well in one setting do not necessarily work in another. Having an unshakeable expectation that a person does well in facet A of their life because facet B is "sorta similar" is basically asking for everything about a character to be immediately relevant to the story's plot. Yes, it's simpler that way, but reality is not simple.

* - though it's debatable that he did "deal" with his brother - by cutting him out of his life... much like what a corporation would do to "fix" a problem employee.

Having something similar in Michael Clayton would possibly make the film work better (we'd still have to do away with the horrible photography, the ridiculous scenes with the horses, the ridiculous scenes of Clayton staring into the sky, etc), but at that point why not watch UITA or The Firm?

Ridiculous scenes? The character was grieving for a recently dead friend. You seem to have a remarkably low tolerance for what people might do when grieving.

re "why not watch 'The Firm" : Because most of the characters in 'The Firm' are utterly dull. 'The Firm' is not thought-provoking in any sense (IMO the book manages to be even more dull, it's like a no-brainer novelisation of a film). It's a flick. By all means enjoy it for that (I've enjoyed it before too). If you discount/strip the humanity out of 'Michael Clayton', then it would be very dull.

.. you can't have reality in cinema.

IMO what this comes down to is what *you want* from a film (or maybe your expectations when choosing to watch 'Michael Clayton' were fundamentally different to what you experienced), and if so I'm frankly astonished that you have an opinion like this given the amount of films you watch; I'd understand it if you spent your entire time reviewing movies like the Fast & Furious franchise (and I'm not intending this as an insult to anyone who does), but AFAIK you watch a pretty diverse range of films.
 
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Oyeve

Lifer
Oct 18, 1999
21,920
829
126
Spaceman - Not your typical Sandler movie but I thought it was deep and pretty good. Had I actually paid for a movie ticket and had to travel to see it in a theater I might have been disappointed, but for Netflix streaming I thought it was decent and a different type of movie. 7 out of 10.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
5,712
1,928
136
Just saw Dune part 2. I am kind of bummed they took the safe route with Paul's sister. That is the one really goofy thing in the book I wish they would have tried to tackle. I thought Lynch handled that pretty well in his version. I really didn't like Florence Pugh's portrayal of Irulan. Not sure what they were trying to go for there, really stilted performance. Was she trying to emulate Walken to show a family resemblance or something?

I thought Pugh was fine. I've always imagined Irulan as an erudite, preferring her books over actual human interaction.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,535
2,137
126
I DO NOT DISLIKE CLOONEY !!! O Brother is at the top of my best list, he's great in UITA, Ides Of March, Three Kings, and .. well that's it but i don't dislike him, he's just not had a lot of luck. Like Hail Caesar or Tomorrowland, he wasn't bad, but the scripts & dialogue were just not great.

My only bias in Michael Clayton is that i don't like gamblers, so that puts me off the character immediately.

But - to try to reply to both at the same time - Clayton is an emotionally weak character, in a role that clashes with being emotionally weak.
Also note that there already is a scene, at the beginning of the film, where he just casually stops his car to go idk, talk to some horses. The same horses as in the later scene, in a film that has no supernatural elements otherwise. Who is he grieving for, his brother?

I am absolutely not a fan of emotionally weak characters; but i can accept this in a role that fits with that characteristic, for example as in Film Blue, or in Kramer vs Kramer.
If you recall, that vastly-lauded KvK film is about Kramer 1 (Dustin Hoffman) and Kramer 2 (Meryl Streep) where K1 is clearly a loving father and K2 is clearly a bitch, but K1 does not have the strength of character to try to CRUSH K2, while K2 absolutely does - and is the villain of the story.
This is where a human weakness works *with* the character role, where a "flaw" is a relatable trait that strengthens the character.

it's not the Clayton's weaknesses are bad because they are weaknesses, it that - in my magnificent opinion of really very smart guy - they clash with his role.
Scrooge is great because he is a miser; the flaw works with the role. But if you take, idk Spiderman and make him a miser, the flaw does not work with the role. Now in real life, anyone can be a miser, or a sadist, or a megalomaniac, but in cinema, theatre and storytelling, certain combinations work better than others.

Even though i'm basically like, a godlike human computer, of genius beyond mere human comprehension, this may surprise you, i did not invent the concept of stock characters.

And while you are certainly free to try to find new stock characters, it's not something easy to do.

Just to be 100% clear, a stock character is a character that, through the years and centuries of theatre, has been found to resonate particularly with audiences, regardless of where, or when. They are more "discovered" than invented, mmk? So the old sage, the clever fool, the buffoon, the devious servant, the absent-minded professor, etc..these are all recognized as viable stock characters. It is known, that if enough traits are are put into a new character in a new story, to match one of these, then this new character will "work" with the audience.

And all these stock characters can have additional traits, a writer is certainly free to explore new combinations, but there is no guarantee they will work. You certainly can have characters who are weakened by grief, but it's generally a good idea to attach these traits to a character where they augment the depth of said character, not clash with it; if you try to write "sad, grieving WEALTHY CEO" then the character will probably not work well - they did that with Kevin Spacey's character in Margin Call and his character is shit, but fortunately he is only briefly in the film and for the most part he just forgets he's actually grieving when he has any dialogue.
You can't take the fatherly love and devotion of Mrs Doubtfire and give it to the ship captain in Jaws, it doesn't fucking work, ok?

Can i remove this character train from this character and NOT affect the story? If the answer is yes, or "yes with minor rewrite changes" that you got a bad character. Can you remove the overconfidence from Tom Cruise's McDeere character and still have the same story? Can you make Ted Kramer into a fighter and still have KvK ? Can you take the obsession and loss of touch with reality from Travis Bickle and still have Taxi Driver?


I dont think Michael Clayton is shit, but i don't think it's a film worth recommending. There are other films that have done the same better, and when you've seen Page 8, The Pelican Brief, All The President's Men, The Firm, Erin Brockovich, Philadelphia, Ides Of March, Up In The Air, you really dont need to watch Michael Clayton.

Here is my summary without omissions of the film.

Michael Clayton is an employee in a law firm. One of his senor colleagues becomes remorseful of having defended a corporation who knew they were selling a dangerous chemical. After the colleague is murdered by the company
[ok so Tilda Swinton is a lawyer for the company, not for the firm, though they work together in the same defense counsel]

Michael Clayton has a change of heart, and manages to get the counsel to confess to the murder so they are arrested.

You don't need Clayton to be remorseful. You don't need him struggling with his role as a ruthless fixer. PROBABLY if he was a tormented character i.e. if he was capable of being ruthless, but CHOOSES to be good, that would actually improve the character. You don't need the grief of a failed life to force his hand, because the best character arcs are those borne out of self-determinations. I want to come with you to Alderaan. I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi, like my father.

The "i was a good employee and you betrayed me, now i'm gonna fuck you up" has been done a million times, Paycheck does this wonderfully, though most people hate that film.

Anyway, i'm ok that we disagree. At least we're having a sensible conversation about it. I am not the most sensitive man about things like grief, i dislike characters that are caught in the current, not in charge of their own life. I like the blonde, white-horse riding hero that kills the dragon, the asskicking "what if EVIL GUY was GOOD?" anti-hero, i like stories that end in triumph and glory, and don't like the misery of ordinary life, because i already got too much of my own.
 
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skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,073
4,877
146
I appreciate your insights @DigDog
My method is simpler. Either a movie pleases me or not so much, or I really don't care for it.
The interplay of stock characters makes sense.
No Country was great.
If I put Tomorrowland and Michael Clayton on a balance, it is Tomorrowland for sure.
The other movie was just not memorable.
I'll choose silly and upbeat over "not memorable".
I think Clooney has some chops.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,816
9,813
136
@DigDog

I agree or at least can relate to a lot of what you said there, I understand your perspective better now at any rate I'm fine with anyone not liking 'Michael Clayton', I just wanted to get to the bottom of your criticism because it felt a bit like if someone said, "12 Monkeys didn't make any sense, watch Back to the Future instead, so much better", and I'm like.... what?

I like 'Margin Call' too but I completely agree that the dog plot was awkwardly crowbarred in there and doesn't serve to deepen Spacey's character at all.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,816
9,813
136
Her problem is attachment. That is a recipe towards the dark side and it can push her to become a formidable Sith. Just as letting go and trusting the Force to bring balance fuels a Jedi's focus, attachment fuels the Sith's desire to be in control of everything including preventing death. A Jedi kills the few to save the many whereas the Sith kill many to save the few.

This quote is why I'm saying that the concern makes no sense:

Huyang: I have known many padawans over the centuries, and I can safely say your aptitude for the Force would fall short of them all.


There's no room for argument about whether Huyang was using reverse psychology either, because:


Then suddenly when the plot demanded it, her grasp of the Force goes from zero to hero.
 

NuclearNed

Raconteur
May 18, 2001
7,835
305
126
Various things I've (re)watched lately:

The Godfather 1 & 2: I can't decide which of these two is the best movie ever. Then I realized that there's no real reason to choose...
The Godfather Coda: The Death of Michael Corleone (aka the director's cut of Godfather 3): much, much better than plain old vanilla Godfather 3, but def still not 1 or 2
Mission Impossible 1 & 2: eh, enjoyable but eh. I think I borderline hated #2 - the John Woo slowmo action just gets a little too silly
The Pacific (aka Band of Brothers 2): I didn't like it as much as BoB, but still pretty good. I'm not sure how any of those guys came home with even a shred of sanity
The Batman: way better than I expected it to be, I just wish the runtime wasn't so long...
The Fellowship of the Ring (extended ed): still love it, but strangely not as much as I did the last time I watched it several years ago
The Two Towers (extended ed, 1st half only for now): same as Fellowship, still love it, but it doesn't resonate quite like it did with younger me
Dune part 1 (for the 3rd time) & Dune Part 2: both are quite awesome; can't wait to see part 2 again
 
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DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,535
2,137
126
Nah. I didn't end it with /s.

Those are genuine possibilities, no? Besides, I think the writers deliberately leave such plot holes to foment online and offline discussion among the fans.
Ah see, to me there exist only 3 films in the Star Wars universe, so midichlorians aren't actually a thing i need to consider.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,816
9,813
136
Nah. I didn't end it with /s.

Those are genuine possibilities, no? Besides, I think the writers deliberately leave such plot holes to foment online and offline discussion among the fans.

(re Ahsoka, in case anyone else is wondering)

If you want to write Star Wars fanfiction then by all means do so, but pro writers who are good at their jobs do not write plot holes into their work.

The more I think about this series, the more plot holes I'm finding, the plot breaking type.

Also, don't get me started on the notion of strapping more engines on a ship makes it go faster / further, it reminds me a lot of this:
article said:
Vulcan science academy: Why do you need another warp core?

Humans: We're going to plug two of them together and see if we go twice as fast.

VSA: Last time we gave you a warp core you threw it into a sun to see if the sun would go twice as fast.

Humans: hahaha yeah. It did tho

VSA: It exploded.

Humans: It exploded twice as fast
 
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Jul 27, 2020
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article said:

Vulcan science academy: Why do you need another warp core?
Humans: We're going to plug two of them together and see if we go twice as fast.
VSA: Last time we gave you a warp core you threw it into a sun to see if the sun would go twice as fast.
Humans: hahaha yeah. It did tho
VSA: It exploded.
Humans: It exploded twice as fast
THANK YOU!

I needed that
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,535
2,137
126
i watched the Director's Cut (with the director being Milos Forman) of Amadeus. Now even longer at a full three hours, and the story focusing much more on Salieri's plans to destroy Mozart. While Salieri personally hates Mozart - because Mozart is gifted, and instead Salieri has had to suffer a life of privations to have in the exchange his music inspired by God - but professionally he respects him very much. So the Salieri in public is a different man from the Salieri in private. The original cut made Salieri much more of a frienemy, here he's a complete piece of shit with the occasional remorse.

This version isn't better. The original cut weirdly isn't better either, one is too long and the other is too short, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, that the script should have been trimmed instead of just cutting scenes. I would recommend the original cut over the DC.
 
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