Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

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raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
Brovane, this is for you:

The Russian December 2021 ultimatum were a set of documents presented by Russia to the United States, NATO, and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) on 17 December 2021, during the prelude to the Russian invasion of Ukraine.[1][2] The ultimatum outlined Russia's demands and expectations regarding the security situation in Europe, especially in relation to the ongoing conflict in Ukraine and the future expansion of NATO. The proposals were seen as an attempt by Russia to exert pressure and influence on the Western countries, and as a sign of its dissatisfaction and distrust with the existing security architecture in Europe.[3][4][5][6] The ultimatum was soundly rejected, and the Russian invasion of Ukraine followed two months later.

So Russia did attempt some sort of deal before it invaded. This proposal was rejected by USA and NATO.
 
Reactions: Meghan54

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
Putin: NATO expansion is reason for the war in Ukraine, a country that had not applied to join NATO.

Sweden/Finland: We are joining NATO.

Putin: *incoherent slurred bluster about destruction of the nordics*

Sweden/Finland: Yeah whatever.

Putin: uh we actually didn't care so fine.
LOL, this is a good one.
 
Reactions: Meghan54

outriding

Diamond Member
Feb 20, 2002
3,141
2,237
136
-Which country has been shelling ethnic Russians in the Donbass region for 8 straight years prior to this invasion? Ukraine.

-Which country has ADMITTEDLY walked out on not one, but two peace agreements in Minsk 1 and 2? Ukraine.

-Which country has allowed to turns its country which borders Russia into a NATO outpost? Ukraine.

-Which country has allowed itself to host secret 12 CIA bases(according to the NYT) on Russias border? Ukraine.

Love how you guys like to begin the story in Act 3 and never bring up Act 1 or Act 2.

But when it comes to Palestine, you start at Act 1(the decades long conflict between Israel and Palestine) and not Act 3(Oct 7).

You might want to learn the history of this conflict bud. It started way before 2/24/22.

Is it really that hard to read a map?

Donbas is in ukraine…
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,281
33,560
136
Brovane, this is for you:

The Russian December 2021 ultimatum were a set of documents presented by Russia to the United States, NATO, and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) on 17 December 2021, during the prelude to the Russian invasion of Ukraine.[1][2] The ultimatum outlined Russia's demands and expectations regarding the security situation in Europe, especially in relation to the ongoing conflict in Ukraine and the future expansion of NATO. The proposals were seen as an attempt by Russia to exert pressure and influence on the Western countries, and as a sign of its dissatisfaction and distrust with the existing security architecture in Europe.[3][4][5][6] The ultimatum was soundly rejected, and the Russian invasion of Ukraine followed two months later.

So Russia did attempt some sort of deal before it invaded. This proposal was rejected by USA and NATO.

The terms of this were laughable. Among other things requiring the pull back of all NATO forces to basically Germany. A total non-starter of a demand.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,243
48,433
136
Brovane, this is for you:

The Russian December 2021 ultimatum were a set of documents presented by Russia to the United States, NATO, and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) on 17 December 2021, during the prelude to the Russian invasion of Ukraine.[1][2] The ultimatum outlined Russia's demands and expectations regarding the security situation in Europe, especially in relation to the ongoing conflict in Ukraine and the future expansion of NATO. The proposals were seen as an attempt by Russia to exert pressure and influence on the Western countries, and as a sign of its dissatisfaction and distrust with the existing security architecture in Europe.[3][4][5][6] The ultimatum was soundly rejected, and the Russian invasion of Ukraine followed two months later.

So Russia did attempt some sort of deal before it invaded. This proposal was rejected by USA and NATO.
It demanded Ukraine not join NATO AND that NATO abandon current members, which of course would have destroyed NATO as an entity.

It was not a serious proposal.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,400
1,578
136
Brovane, this is for you:

The Russian December 2021 ultimatum were a set of documents presented by Russia to the United States, NATO, and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) on 17 December 2021, during the prelude to the Russian invasion of Ukraine.[1][2] The ultimatum outlined Russia's demands and expectations regarding the security situation in Europe, especially in relation to the ongoing conflict in Ukraine and the future expansion of NATO. The proposals were seen as an attempt by Russia to exert pressure and influence on the Western countries, and as a sign of its dissatisfaction and distrust with the existing security architecture in Europe.[3][4][5][6] The ultimatum was soundly rejected, and the Russian invasion of Ukraine followed two months later.

So Russia did attempt some sort of deal before it invaded. This proposal was rejected by USA and NATO.

That deal went way beyond just Ukraine. Can you show me a specific deal where Russia offered to not invade Ukraine if Ukraine and NATO committed to not admitting Ukraine? Just a deal about Ukraine. You keep saying this invasion is about possible NATO expansion into Ukraine. Can you show me where Russia offered to not invade if Ukraine would commit to not joining NATO?
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
11,737
890
126
Saw this quote on Masters of the Air and it works well for the current war. Just replace Hitler with Putin and world with Eastern Europe.

Sandra Westgate : No. Your friend was on that plane for one reason, and one reason only: because Adolf Hitler and his gang of thugs decided they should rule the world. That's it. That's the only reason anybody dies in this war.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,531
5,047
136
Thank you, the compliments are very appreciated. I did edit/reread at least 5 times before posting.

Exactly the problem. There was a simple choice for the world: bow to the USD, with the grip of the American State behind it, risk getting sanctioned, risk american laws being applied to your citizens, risk the ire of the USA when their interests came upon you...or on the other hand, there was the great dark void of losing all the infrastructure (SWIFT, international banking system) and trying to survive alone against the world.
And in a few years, the choice will be "USD and the U.S State and its imperial interests" or "the Russian alternative and its imperial interests".

It is a dramatically worse situation in every possible metric. The unknown is now known. Countries with little for large scale banking infrastructures will eventually just "attach" to Russia like they did to the U.S. If the Russians aren't too stupid they'll merely match 80% of what the Americans offer and that'll be that. Take BRICS(which really means China) general financial backing and that's it, the total monopoly has suddenly become a competitive market where the Americans are so, so, so ridiculously bloated because nobody competed before.

To put it in computer terms, "It's 1982 and IBM suddenly has competition with Compaq". And we all know where that ended.

I'm not enough of a competent economist to give a prediction, but Young Grasshopper and you have pointed out the problem: the USD is under an absurd degree of debt, and that's fine as long as you're the best option, or formerly the only option, to hope that debt repaid.

In the words of Tywin/Tyrion Lannister "if the Iron Bank can't get its money back, it will fund our enemies". Well, there were no enemies or competitors that held any promise. And now, there will be.
The problem isn't to have $33T or any other ridiculous number, the problem is that if your debt is less likely to be repaid than the competition's, you get an increasing amount of weight against you, and as the Law of Capitalism states, the more money you have, the more you can do things which makes you more money. Stands to reason that the N°2 has an uphill battle against the N°1, so the question becomes who's going to become N°1?

And for that, I love using this metaphor:

There's a whisky seller (let's call him Johnny) in the street that's selling his whisky from the biggest, most mean-looking barrel ever. And everyone comes for a glass.
Then someday, the seller sees Ivan and kicks him off the stand, telling him he won't be getting any whisky anymore and tells everyone to not talk to Ivan.
Ivan sets up his vodka stand across the street. The vodka stand is smaller, has a worse table and looks pretty poor, but it does attract a few customers who were also kicked out by Johnny.
And every day, people notice that at Ivan's stand, they seem to get pretty damn drunk. VERY drunk.
So one after the other, depending on how much they like Johnny or how much of Johnny's whisky they already drank, they go and try. And realise immediately that Johnny's whisky was being cut with water. More and more water every single day since years. When you're having just one source, you don't see it, but when you test Ivan's vodka, it's instantly obvious.
And you pay the same money for Johnny's whisky as you pay for Ivan's vodka.

While the american debt is absolutely ridiculous, the real problem is the american inflation. "Cutting with water" means printing money, and throwing the dollar's value down the drain every year. Countries who have $1M and want to buy 1000 barrels of petrol will have to get that $1M through selling things on the intl markets. But when a few years later, they'll want to get the same 1000 barrels, suddenly they need $1.3M, while not having any more dollars than before.

Inflation through money printing is functionally a tax. With taxes, the State takes your money for itself. With inflation, it prints money, injects it into the economy, buys what it wants at full currency price, the money gets shuffled into the economy and loses value as it does. The goods, services and skills in your economy are the same, more paper just means that what used to be bought for 1$ now can be bought with 2$, one from the normal economy, and one that was freshly printed by the State. So prices rise because there's more "currency watering down", because the State's money is pressuring the economy's current money.

When the Dollar is the sole currency that the world uses, the world pays tax through inflation to the United Printers of America. When the American State gets global competition on the dollar (Ivan opens up shop), suddenly everyone will go from "have 1M$, get 300 barrels instead of 1000" to "have 1M[Russian global currency], get 1000 barrels". And that's how you know who's going to become number 1.

The problem will also climb into an absurd death spiral at some point. Because let's say you start with:
- 150 countries use the dollar for their oil
- the U.S state prints enough dollars to create a 30% inflation of monetary mass in the U.S.A, but spreads it across the world
- the dollar makes a 5% shared inflation

A year later, it's:
- 140 countries use petrodollars
- 30% inflation of monetary mass
- dollar makes 5.5% shared inflation

Three years later:
- 100 countries on petrodollar
- 30% inflation of monetary mass
- dollar makes 10% shared inflation

Meanwhile the competition's monetary space has a 3% flat inflation and all the countries that go to them have to deal with comparatively much less stringent consequences of the Russian/Chinese/BRICS monetary policies. Meaning the inflation tax and multiple privileges the US state gave itself from the USD dominance just aren't there. The countries that jump off the USD keep getting richer because they suffer less inflation tax, and keep climbing while the followers of the USD keep suffering harder every year.

When you get to the point that it's the last guard of the American Empire (read: the most wrecked/submissive vassals, say, England) that's going to be stuck there with 30% yearly inflation and an absolutely deadly financial situation, everyone's gonna jump. And it will be hard. Very hard. Because it won't just be 30% inflation every year, it'll be 30% inflation while a huge amount of the global financial power of the U.S.A shrinks, while tons of public servants have to be fired, while the economy crunches extremely hard, while the banking sector tries desperately to sustain whatever still works and takes its money out of the country from what doesn't, while nobody wants to take responsibility, while...well while everything blows the hell up within a few months. A slow climb of pressure that at its end explodes volcanically. Yes, the current inflation in the West is the SLOW part of the crisis.

Suddenly we'll see Weimar Republic tier of financial consequences. Probably very hostile govt takeover of means of production or savings. And I can picture a bunch of Lindsay Grahams and Janet Yellens or Ben Bernankes take a plane to the Bahamas like they're Sam Bankman Fried when the inevitable crunch from the american people will come.

I always find it funny when americans explain to me that "they have good industries, good skills, agricultural independence, nobody's gonna touch them". Guys, nobody's gonna conquer Colorado. Colorado is going up in flames due to your govt, but it's not getting invaded. However, that global trade control? Massive army? Impossibly long list of bases? Huge administration with innumerable public servants? Subsidising entire nations? Subsidising your industries? Subsidising however many "NGOs" around the world? Predatory industries that could maim and gobble up European industries? Controlling the oil market to your advantage? The ability to run the world? Almost all of them have no idea of how the world has been paying for it.
And now, we're going to see the world get divided between those who pay for an empire shouldering a $33T debt and those who pay for an empire shouldering a $280 billion debt. With inflation showing very quickly who's solvent and who really, really, really isn't.

And the irony of all of this, again, is that Russia didn't even "walk away" from the dollar.
Russia was kicked out. They literally did this to themselves. Unbelievable amounts of sheer incompetence and the hubris of thinking that the world was going to just bow to their monetary craze no matter what.
The actions the U.S Empire took in regards to Ukraine will be the death of the U.S Empire within the next 15 years tops. Possibly less than 10.

The Russians are effectively incredibly behind, somewhere I read that the Elbrus chips are on 150nm, that's 2005 technology, but China is such a ridiculously poorly analysed affair. I still remember large amounts of naive fools in the semiconductor industry assuring me, with great certitudes, that "China isn't even close to EUV" or "China can't do this class of chips", before they all went Surprised Pikachu Face when China announced that it had jerry rigged 7nm class chips for its own industries.

Sure, there are hard limits and many hurdles to overcome, but these people just look at the technicals and ignore how power works. In the case of China, they have a lot of money, and a lot of influence locally in Asia, so hiring away people disgruntled with TSMC or Samsung and getting a local industry kickstart on the back of CCP money was just obvious (Asianometry made excellent videos on that subject, like the "TSMC Renegade Genius" one).
I can easily envision announcements in a few years of 5nm chips, and then the beginning of EUV technology based off more or less stolen ASML technology, with help from a surprising amount of people formerly of ASML or TSMC or Carl Zeiss. All this economic growth is giving the Chinese a lot of options to pay for a lot of nice things, and they will get the nice things. And to boot, the U.S has made the moronic move of placing Russia as the main enemy/danger, when China is unquestionably the real weight. Reminds me of France thinking Mussolini was the danger in 1938 and Hitler was a lesser risk. The incompetence just piles on, might as well get beer and enjoy the West going up in flames.

Yeah, I think I'll pass. I prefer conversations that do not have me saying something and the response is different grades of base sarcasm, insults and pointless distractions meant to bring back the discussion to within Party Guidelines.
I feel I gave it a honest shake and got nothing of value, I won't be trying again. I'm really not too keen on using angry milifan spit as my shampoo from now on. In the first place, my education is in politics, but I hold an intellectual interest in semiconductors, that's why I opened an account here. Listening to semi professionals is very educational to me, if giving back with geopolitical education gets rejected this strongly, I won't be bothering anyone with trying to make them think against their will.
I don't mind answering genuine questions about geopolitics or discussing events, but I won't be trying to convince anyone anymore. My time is better spent on 5 hours of failures at Slaying the Spire than spending a minute talking to those who have welcomed me so...liquidly.
TL;DR wall of copy-pasta bullshit
 

Young Grasshopper

Senior member
Nov 9, 2007
926
296
136
So it is now admitted that US wants to use Ukraine as cannon fodder because it does not want to directly fight Russia?

Create millions of refugees, along with so many casualties so you can use Ukraine to cause damage to Russia?

Whoopsie. Looks like the truthful side in him accidentally slipped out.

😁
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,283
24,331
136
Brovane, this is for you:

The Russian December 2021 ultimatum were a set of documents presented by Russia to the United States, NATO, and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) on 17 December 2021, during the prelude to the Russian invasion of Ukraine.[1][2] The ultimatum outlined Russia's demands and expectations regarding the security situation in Europe, especially in relation to the ongoing conflict in Ukraine and the future expansion of NATO. The proposals were seen as an attempt by Russia to exert pressure and influence on the Western countries, and as a sign of its dissatisfaction and distrust with the existing security architecture in Europe.[3][4][5][6] The ultimatum was soundly rejected, and the Russian invasion of Ukraine followed two months later.

So Russia did attempt some sort of deal before it invaded. This proposal was rejected by USA and NATO.
Raildogg you ignorant slut
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,721
13,537
146
One difference between Mexico example and Ukraine is that a certain coup took place and a certain pro-Western government was installed. Too much meddling going on. Let's assume Russia caused a color revolution in Mexico and overthrew the current regime and installed a pro-Russia regime. Then it built up Mexican forces, etc and wanted to build bases in it. Would you be fine with this?

I can appreciate your openness to peace but I am sure neocons such as John Bolton and Lindsay Graham will be calling to blow up Mexico. They are already talking about bombing Mexico due to cartels, etc! Psychopaths in US government it seems.

That's why I won't and will not blame American people too much. I know they are not maniacal warmongers but many of their leaders are.
Interesting that you called it a coup and a western government being “installed “. It sure looked like a majority of the Ukrainian people were not happy with Yanukovych’s pro Russian policy and Yanukovych fled to Russia during the rioting. Yanukovych was then removed by the majority of their legislature and new elections were called.

Without a pro Russian Ukraine president Putin did his first invasion violating their previous agreements.

(Also as a reminder Yanukovych had his first bid for President overturned due to election tampering. He was later helped into power by Paul Manafort who was also Trumps 2016 campaign manager who he later pardoned. Trump was impeached for attempting to blackmail the current Ukraine president)
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
27,480
36,928
136
Sweden and Finland are not Ukraine so Russia is OK with that, not pleased, but OK. Different countries have different rules.

Ukraine has a special strategic importance, history has shown this. Yes, you don't like it but can you respect it?

If you don't like it and also cannot respect this rule, let's allow Russia to place hypersonic missiles on Cuba then. After all, Cuba should be allowed to do as it pleases? And let's build 5 Russian military bases in northern Mexico. After all, Mexico should operate independent of US, right?


Different countries have different rules yes, why can't you respect it? Why can't Putin? Either you believe in Ukrainian sovereignty or you don't.

Here, softball for you:

If America invaded Mexico, for whatever reason, and started targeting civilians - killing them, torturing them, raping them, kidnapping children, attempting to stamp out Mexican identity and Spanish as a language... that would be bad, right?
 
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dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,597
3,432
136
- Are we on some sort of FSB psyop bulletin or something what the fuck is going with all the Russian troll farmers on AT?

That said, as I've participated more on Techspot and TPU forums, there seems to be a lot of uh... unusual political beliefs that go along with interest in PC hardware so dunno what that's about. AT is actually far more left leaning than some of the other tech sites out there.

Wild how ATPN, with traffic a minute fraction of a crumb of a percentage of Reddit or X still rates at least two or three obvious ones.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,243
48,433
136
Different countries have different rules yes, why can't you respect it? Why can't Putin? Either you believe in Ukrainian sovereignty or you don't.

Here, softball for you:

If America invaded Mexico, for whatever reason, and started targeting civilians - killing them, torturing them, raping them, kidnapping children, attempting to stamp out Mexican identity and Spanish as a language... that would be bad, right?
Does anyone think for a second these guys would say ‘this is China’s fault’?
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
27,480
36,928
136
Wild how ATPN, with traffic a minute fraction of a crumb of a percentage of Reddit or X still rates at least two or three obvious ones.

It's possible a certain forum numpty, though well meaning, may or may not have caused the place to show up for psyop trolls by linking and posting about a certain Taiwanese drone bomber, gifted to Ukraine many moon and a thousand pages ago.

I like the wild chance explanation though too.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,721
13,537
146
But he sure can pile it sky-high.

Or is it just transcribed?

Wild how ATPN, with traffic a minute fraction of a crumb of a percentage of Reddit or X still rates at least two or three obvious ones.
I’ve been trying to figure out too. Maybe it would have been worth it if social engineering was a thing when AT was in top 100 sites 20+ years ago but today?

Either they are just a couple of posters who are anti democracy and pro despotism or maybe the troll farms send them here for training.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,499
3,373
136
AT forums show up in search engines. Maybe they are getting certain search terms and links aggregated.
Yeah this is the likely answer imo. They don’t care about the handful of posters who still read this forum regularly — we all know they’re paid dancing clowns. I don’t have them on ignore but skip over their walls of text that no real person has time to read or write. They’re just here to spread shit far and wide. Maybe it gets used to feed future (current?) GPT models.
 

Zor Prime

Golden Member
Nov 7, 1999
1,018
587
136
Yup. If you weren’t aware Zor is definitely not on Ukraines side in this three day special operation.
It would be such a conflict of interest on my behalf that I mentioned recently I'm fine with the aid package that passed the Senate since what basically amounts to my hometown will get almost a billion dollars of investment out of it. Giving a bunch of hillbillies almost a billion dollar investment could do wonders for the area. I'm also fine securing contracts to rebuild Ukraine. It would serve me for Russia to be eventually expelled so that we can secure more reconstruction contracts by way of the Ukraine Development Fund that BlackRock and JPMorgan are pushing and any funds like it. I am invested in all of that from defense to finance to construction, I am not invested in Russia. I'm not choking on dick here nor there, be it Putin or Zel. If that confuses people, don't know what to tell y'all.
 
Reactions: Paratus

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
There is this thing called diplomacy which is now a very alien word to the West. Yeah Russia had demands prior to the Ukraine war but that is where diplomacy comes in. You cannot get all you want. If America and NATO were serious about peace they would have sat with Russia and talked. But no, they outright rejected Russia's concerns, from what I know. Leaving no room for talks. So you asked me to provide proof saying whether Russia said it would not invade if Ukraine would not be let into NATO - well, this did happen and NATO and America refused to talk any further. Did NATO and America think Russia was fooling around with national security? If they did, they have made a very serious miscalculation with Ukraine's security.

"The demands include a ban on Ukraine entering Nato and a limit to the deployment of troops and weapons to Nato’s eastern flank, in effect returning Nato forces to where they were stationed in 1997, before an eastward expansion."

The Guardian

America and NATO wanted to gobble up all of Europe all the way up to Russia's border and excepted Russia to shut its mouth and take it. It turns out that was not the case. You may not like it but every country has "red lines" and abilities to tolerate certain actions.

I think at one point Russia wanted to be part of NATO?

Interesting Turkish article:

According to the Kremlin, Russia is fighting Ukraine, or Vladimir Putin's words, “Little Russia,” to prevent NATO’s eastern expansion across Eastern Europe. While Kiev is not a member of NATO, Russia is fighting forces trained and armed by the Western Alliance.

But at one point in history, Putin’s Russia wanted to join NATO.

“Russia is part of European culture. And I cannot imagine my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call the civilised world. So it is hard for me to visualise NATO as an enemy,” said Putin, the country’s acting president in 2000, three weeks before the election, which made him president.

At the time, Putin’s words were interpreted as extending an olive branch to the West. Since then, Putin has been in power, rising to the occasion and becoming the sole decision-maker of the country.

The same year, according to the then-NATO chief George Robertson, Putin bluntly asked: “When are you going to invite us to join Nato?” Robertson advised the Russian president that he needs to “apply to join NATO” and not expect an invitation.

Now, under massive Western sanctions isolating Moscow from Europe and with much of the “civilised” world allied with Washington, Russia has reached a point that its long-serving president could not have imagined two decades ago. His words now sound like those of a man with an unfulfilled desire for an impossible love affair with NATO.

Some experts believe it could have been real if the West had taken Russia’s membership prospects seriously back in 2000 or the 1990s when Mikhail Gorbachev, the last Soviet leader, and Russian Federation’s first President Boris Yeltsin also lobbied for Moscow’s entrance to the alliance. Had it happened, the current Russian onslaught on Ukraine could have been prevented.

“Because they thought that they had won the Cold War and could dictate all the terms as Russia was 'beaten'. They were high on the euphoria of a perceived victory rather than a massive opportunity for peace and security,” says Gregory Simons, an associate professor at the Institute for Russian and Eurasian Studies at Uppsala University.

“They did not regard Russia as an equal and probably thought to use the idea of membership as a means of compliance. Like the EU has done to Turkey for years,” Simons tells TRT World.

 
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outriding

Diamond Member
Feb 20, 2002
3,141
2,237
136
There is this called diplomacy which is now a very alien word to the West. Yeah Russia had demands prior to the Ukraine war but that is where diplomacy comes in. You cannot get all you want. If America and NATO were serious about peace they would have sat with Russia and talked. But no, they outright rejected Russia's concerns, from what I know. Leaving no room for talks. So you asked me to provide proof saying whether Russia said it would not invade if Ukraine would not be let into NATO - well, this did happen and NATO and America refused to talk any further. Did NATO and America think Russia was fooling around with national security? If they did, they have made a very serious miscalculation with Ukraine's security.

What standing does Russia have when a country wants to join NATO?

Has Nato ever invaded Russia?
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
I don't know, every country is different has has different "red lines." For China, its Taiwan. For Russia, its Ukraine and Georgia. For America, its Europe, the Western hemisphere, South China Sea, East Asia, Red Sea, Mediterranean Sea and many more which I will not mention. So it appears Russia's red lines are a lot less than America's. And China's are even less than that.
 
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