Info Windows 12 may never come

Jul 27, 2020
16,536
10,532
106

bba-tcg

Senior member
Apr 8, 2010
615
304
136
computerguyonline.net

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
21,335
4,469
136
Bump Windows / Microsoft after having used their OS's since PC DOS Version 3.1 days. I've given up with Microsoft insisting constantly that I need to upgrade to Windows 11 from windows 10 and now pushing ads into the OS and almost requiring a MS Account to install it. I had been running Linux on my desktop(s) for many years but kept Windows on my Notebook(s). I am now currently running 100% Linux on all of my systems. I've finally had enough.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,976
126
If Windows 12 does arrive, I expect it'll be close to when 11 is EOL. If they shipped it now they'd have another fragmented disaster with having to support 10, 11, and 12 all at once.

Just look at how much trouble they had getting rid of 7 and XP. Depending on which stats you check, 7 is still ~5% desktop share which is still higher than Linux.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,552
8,234
136
They need to make the AI stuff optional. I'm pretty certain it won't be allowed on PCs at my work that deal with confidential patient information.
So if it's optional for business PCs make it optional for everyone.
I have copilot disabled using a group policy but they should make an easy toggle for everyone regardless of version of Windows.


Tbh I feel like a lot more stuff in windows should be modular. They ship it with the Microsoft Store as is. Why not make Windows more bare bones and just open up the store after the first boot. Microsoft could have a "suggested software" page for all the most common things people want and the crud that Microsoft want to push.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,976
126
Why not make Windows more bare bones and just open up the store after the first boot.
You know exactly why, because nobody wants the garbage they're peddling. That's why they force it into the OS.

Start Screen, Widgets, Metro, UWP, WinRT, app store, Bing, Cortana, XBox integration...all complete failures. AI will also be a complete failure. It's as stupid as when NV and Intel decided to take their control panel out of the driver install and move it to the app store.

MS still don't understand that it's the backward compatibility of x86 + Win32 which keeps Windows relevant and popular, so the fools keep trying to chip away at it. Killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Get rid of that and you may as well start off with a clean slate and move to Arm + Linux.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,754
9,687
136
@BFG10K

I wrote a much longer response than this and saved it as a draft but it's been lost, so hopefully here's a briefer version!

I don't think backwards (at least win32) compatibility is Windows's main attraction to most of its customers, it's familiarity, which is also something that MS keeps messing with like deckchairs on the Titanic.

I think MS's main problem is that they have an opinion that Windows doesn't draw the kind of revenue they would like, ie. subscription-based. Subscriptions are nice, regular payments that look great on balance sheets and give an easier-to-digest impression of a product's popularity, and generally constitute far worse value for money for the end users. Subscriptions and operating systems don't go well together both legally speaking and in terms of popularity which leaves MS forever in a quandary with regard to Windows.

Therefore IMO MS sees Windows as a delivery vehicle for subscriptions/services rather than a vehicle for productivity. It's why MS is always increasing its advertising techniques in Windows including their most recent plan to put ads in the Start menu.

With Windows's complicated/fragile status in terms of revenue, it leaves Windows with a complete lack of long-term leadership and vision. There was no good reason to supersede Windows 10 and I think the only reason why MS released Windows 11 was to appease OEMs who likely believed that a new version of Windows would drive sales. Incrementing the release number by one is hardly likely to improve matters, and isn't going to change the fact that Windows 11 is not popular by Windows release standards and MS doesn't know what to do about that either.

Overall I think MS needs a solid kick up where the sun doesn't shine, perhaps in the form of a credible threat to take its home users away from them. Maybe then they'll also stop pedalling several products with the same name (which I suspect is part of an intentional attempt to make basic-end computing more complicated and encourage a culture of "if in doubt, subscribe to Microsoft Everything").
 
Reactions: Pohemi and pcgeek11

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,732
561
126
The purpose of Windows 11 is to drop support for Windows without the TPM2.0, which lays the ground for blocking use of "unauthorized" software on the OS in the long run.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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The purpose of Windows 11 is to drop support for Windows without the TPM2.0, which lays the ground for blocking use of "unauthorized" software on the OS in the long run.
Is that a theory or is there existing software that uses TPM 2.0 for DRM purposes?
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,369
10,067
126
MS's documentation states, among other things, that Win11 uses the TPM2.0 unit, for "OS attestation". What could that be useful for, other than OS licensing and DRM.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,754
9,687
136
MS's documentation states, among other things, that Win11 uses the TPM2.0 unit, for "OS attestation". What could that be useful for, other than OS licensing and DRM.

And evidently they don't yet use it for that, or if they do, they do it in a way that includes a fallback for no-TPM setups, which I find a tad bizarre, given Win11 RTM's system requirements.
 
Last edited:
Jul 27, 2020
16,536
10,532
106
MS's documentation states, among other things, that Win11 uses the TPM2.0 unit, for "OS attestation".
I thought the main reason was security, to ensure that the OS is communicating directly with hardware, instead of some rootkit that's been injected into RAM before the OS kernel loading and thus fooling the OS by intercepting its calls to and from the hardware. This could, for example, allow the rootkit to steal all keystrokes surreptitiously and forward them undetected to any IP controlled by the malicious party.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,754
9,687
136
I thought the main reason was security, to ensure that the OS is communicating directly with hardware, instead of some rootkit that's been injected into RAM before the OS kernel loading and thus fooling the OS by intercepting its calls to and from the hardware. This could, for example, allow the rootkit to steal all keystrokes surreptitiously and forward them undetected to any IP controlled by the malicious party.

A problem is, that's not what happens in a lot of cases anyway. It's been a long time since I encountered an actual rootkit (they used to be commonplace-ish certainly pre UAC), but one I vaguely remember just added a filter driver to the keyboard driver to get what it wanted.

AFAIK these days the most common way to circumvent Windows security is to sign a driver using a compromised signing authority (which has happened alarmingly often) and with that you can basically do whatever the hell you like on the system.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,732
561
126
Is that a theory or is there existing software that uses TPM 2.0 for DRM purposes?
Really just a theory, but it is clear they're jealous of iOS and Android's heavily locked stores where they get a cut off all sales and near total control over the platform.

No one would release Windows software that requires TPM 2.0 right now if they want to sell it, but after Microsoft landfills all the hardware without it by dropping support they can start the process of requiring attestation, probably with annoyances and security warnings and other nags. That ends with them just blocking non attested software altogether but they'll need to attain critical mass first which will take years.

Of course, the main attraction to Windows is the ability to run lots of old software. Obsoleting the main advantage will be a tricky thing, they'll likely sell an out to businesses forever but their push into consumer is basically the mobile playbook. Microsoft has been pretty incompetent in their store push so far and many consumers will just move to Mac/iOSor and to a lesser extent android/chromeOS since they both have a better average consumer brand and already do the app store thing. I doubt big productivity software makers like the idea of a Microsoft store but they may sleepwalk into it if given enough time. I don't think this will end with Microsoft taking marketshare from the markets Apple/Google have, if fact I think they'll lose marketshare on desktop doing this. But they'll make more money from the people that remain so they probably don't really care.

It is important to remember that Windows OS is just a strategic moat for MS at this point, not a big money maker compared to their other divisions. It works in service to them, not the other way around.
 

burninatortech4

Senior member
Jan 29, 2014
674
389
136
They need to make the AI stuff optional. I'm pretty certain it won't be allowed on PCs at my work that deal with confidential patient information.
So if it's optional for business PCs make it optional for everyone.
I have copilot disabled using a group policy but they should make an easy toggle for everyone regardless of version of Windows.


Tbh I feel like a lot more stuff in windows should be modular. They ship it with the Microsoft Store as is. Why not make Windows more bare bones and just open up the store after the first boot. Microsoft could have a "suggested software" page for all the most common things people want and the crud that Microsoft want to push.
They won't. AI is another way to push targeted ad's to you (in the OS!). You are the product and AI is the solution /s.

AI integration won't be optional.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,552
8,234
136
They won't. AI is another way to push targeted ad's to you (in the OS!). You are the product and AI is the solution /s.

AI integration won't be optional.
At the worst they are going to have to make it so you can disable it or there are lots of places you won't be able to use Windows!
At the moment you can kill copilot with group policy.
 

burninatortech4

Senior member
Jan 29, 2014
674
389
136
At the worst they are going to have to make it so you can disable it or there are lots of places you won't be able to use Windows!
At the moment you can kill copilot with group policy.
I'm guessing it becomes what Edge is now. Part of the OS. You can disable certain functions, but you can't get rid of it completely.
 
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