Discussion AMD's Future CPU-APU Gone ARM !!!

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soresu

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Dec 19, 2014
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Still, I'm leaning towards false for this one as it doesn't make sense to me. Samsung tried to create their own GPU in the past, but failed to do so and that was the catalyst for them to go after AMD for the IP licensing agreement.
Did it actually fail?

Or did they just put it on R&D slowburn because AMD offered them the shorter path to a functional product?

If this rumor is real I'm inclined to think the latter because they didn't just whip this up recently.

After all, with AMD restricting what they can do with their RDNA IP they have little choice but to go an alternative route for WoA SoC's, and Mali was already a problem so it's not gonna be that route, while PowerVR is just yesterdays news to most people so that's probably out too.
 
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(I didn't follow, but isn't ARC acceptable as a mid-range GPU?).
Very, if a bit inefficient due to its focus on compute and relatively immature drivers.

But their RT units are designed with the future in mind. I'm not sure about AMD's approach but Intel has a dedicated thread sorting unit which they claim is future-ready (I believe this is the PPT file with their claim: https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...ck-guide-to-intel-s-ray-tracing-hardware.html).

 

soresu

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But their RT units are designed with the future in mind
IMHO real time RT software techniques are still very much in flux as nVidia scrambles to make RT as viable as possible to game devs having stepped in it by pushing the change long before the hardware or software was truly ready for it.

Knowing that I don't see how they could be truly future proof beyond general guesswork made at the time the µArch was designed.
 
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From their slide:



Since Nvidia also agrees that path tracing is the future (and they pushed it with 4090 in CP2077 and going to tout it as a killer feature with 5090 no doubt), I think that may be the general consensus in the graphics research community.
 

KompuKare

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2009
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Indeed. Intel's original sin was to try to use a CPU/ISA architecture to make a GPU. That's inefficient. There are many reasons why there are dedicated blocks to do various tasks (DSP, NPU, ISP, etc.) a CPU could in theory do. Intel lost years trying with Larrabee. But that doesn't mean they won't finally succeed in designing a good GPU (I didn't follow, but isn't ARC acceptable as a mid-range GPU?).
It's not bad unless measured in performance per transistor or area where it fails massively.

From the size of its die and the number of transistors it should perform two tiers better, I think. (AFAIR it's die size is around 400mm² on 6nm so it should perform between a RX6700XT and RX6800, but it's nowhere near that.)
 
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soresu

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Dec 19, 2014
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From their slide:

View attachment 98335

Since Nvidia also agrees that path tracing is the future (and they pushed it with 4090 in CP2077 and going to tout it as a killer feature with 5090 no doubt), I think that may be the general consensus in the graphics research community.
From a realism POV it is the future sure, but in terms of acceptable performance I think as with RT in general PT is being pushed far earlier than the available hardware capabilities.

This is the entire point in pushing DLSS for nVidia since Turing.

Even then they are still denoising the heck out of every frame to reduce sampling noise, which diminishes image quality as it smooths over details in textures and geometry.

The fact that they picked Quake 2 as their initial test case for PT is a case on point for this with its low poly geometry and low res textures (to say nothing of the deceptive gimmick of removing the modern PBR raster renderer from the pipeline for Q2 RTX so that the raster shift is back to the OG render backend and textures).

They have improved software techniques since, but there's still a ways to go to make PT viable for real time in dynamic, ultra high poly geo and texture res games.

I fear that there will never be a time when denoising is not a necessity to get a clean frame - at least not outside of true foveated rendering in VR.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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at least not outside of true foveated rendering in VR.
Some generous billionaire needs to buy out Tobii and make the hardware/software opensource so that problem is solved once and for all on desktop. When the GPU is certain what you are viewing, it will be a simple matter of slightly reducing the quality of the parts of the frame that the viewer is not focusing on.
 

soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
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Some generous billionaire needs to buy out Tobii and make the hardware/software opensource so that problem is solved once and for all on desktop. When the GPU is certain what you are viewing, it will be a simple matter of slightly reducing the quality of the parts of the frame that the viewer is not focusing on.
Infra red metalenses will go some way to further reducing the footprint of the tracking sensor.
 
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Tigerick

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Apr 1, 2022
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Sound Wave was leaked earlier. The name sounds weird; seems unrelated to current Point codenames.

Then I realized Soundwave is one of the characters from the original Transformers. Hmm, could it be the beginning of Transformation ???
As speculated by your truly two months ago, AMD Soundwave is indeed an ARM APU. People in this forum should know how powerful is upcoming Cortex-X5, therefore AMD has to pursuit the ARM opportunity. I haven't mentioned about Zen 7 which could be the first ARM core designed by AMD.
 

poke01

Senior member
Mar 8, 2022
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If leaks are to believed then Cortex X5 will have better IPC than Zen 5, Lion Cove and M3.

The only problem is at what cost?
 

Tigerick

Senior member
Apr 1, 2022
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If leaks are to believed then Cortex X5 will have better IPC than Zen 5, Lion Cove and M3.

The only problem is at what cost?
My guess is below USD$1000 for SoC with 64-bit memory bus. Remember we are talking about year 2026 which LPDDR6 would be standard.
 

poke01

Senior member
Mar 8, 2022
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My guess is below USD$1000 for SoC with 64-bit memory bus. Remember we are talking about year 2026 which LPDDR6 would be standard.
I don’t see anyone using 64bit bus. That’s what phones use.

I think in 2026 all base ARM chips will be LP6 and 128-but bus.

I could be wrong I have to see how M5 and X Elite 2 will use.
 

Thunder 57

Platinum Member
Aug 19, 2007
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As speculated by your truly two months ago, AMD Soundwave is indeed an ARM APU. People in this forum should know how powerful is upcoming Cortex-X5, therefore AMD has to pursuit the ARM opportunity. I haven't mentioned about Zen 7 which could be the first ARM core designed by AMD.
View attachment 99172

Not sure why you are giving that guy views, but that is beside the point. It is not in AMD's interest to join a crowded ARM field. Also, they have developed ARM CPU's before, There was an Opteron at least.
 
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Nothingness

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Jul 3, 2013
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Also, they have developed ARM CPU's before, There was an Opteron at least.
Yes, it was AMD A1100. That was a complete failure: too late, broken PCIe, expensive.


They were not trying seriously for sure. But as you wrote, it's not obvious it makes sense to enter that market right now; perhaps later when their increase of x86 market share slows down (though they have to start design early before that happens).
 

uzzi38

Platinum Member
Oct 16, 2019
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I haven't mentioned about Zen 7 which could be the first ARM core designed by AMD.
View attachment 99172
The first ARM core designed by AMD would be the now-shelved K12, which was literally just Zen but with an ARM front-end.

It never came to market and no future development has happened on the design either. AMD are not interested in designing their own ARM cores currently, they're fully focused on x86.

(Btw, the design team that worked on K12 later worked on Zen 3).

Like I said earlier in this thread (probably multiple times by now, I actually don't know on that but I know I've said it at least once): what you're looking at right now is a semi-custom product with standard ARM core IP put together with AMD fabrics (I think, I'm not 100% sure on this one) and GPU IP for an APU. That's it, just a semi-custom product.you really need to strop trying to read into this any more than that.
 

uzzi38

Platinum Member
Oct 16, 2019
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What is that? Zen for games? ARM for Sony OS/Interface(PS6)?
You know the first thing I thought of when I saw this job listing wasn't "oh they're thinking of switching to ARM for PS6", it was "oh they're either probably looking into PS3 backwards compatibility now or looking to getting more PS exclusives on Switch."
 

uzzi38

Platinum Member
Oct 16, 2019
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The cost would likely be higher power wise than M3, but not those other two.
I'm genuinely very interested to see how power efficiency compares to M4 and X4. X4 could already pull >10W single core in many workloads, and I'm pretty sure M4 can as well with how it looks like some ST tests benefit from wild cooling setups in the iPad. So I'm mostly interested to see if X5 will push even higher, or will it manage the significant performance uptick at the same or lower power.
 
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jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,688
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Not sure why you are giving that guy views, but that is beside the point. It is not in AMD's interest to join a crowded ARM field. Also, they have developed ARM CPU's before, There was an Opteron at least.

As dumb as it sounds, the entire industry is so obsessed with AI to the point where I could see AMD being worried that WoA will gain a foothold because OEMs won't care about x86, only AI. Zen 5c can't be that big of a core, can it?
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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As dumb as it sounds, the entire industry is so obsessed with AI to the point where I could see AMD being worried that WoA will gain a foothold because OEMs won't care about x86, only AI. Zen 5c can't be that big of a core, can it?
If the best rumors are true, it CAN be that big. Its just that its physically smaller Zen 5 cores that run slightly slower than Zen 5.
 

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
661
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The first ARM core designed by AMD would be the now-shelved K12, which was literally just Zen but with an ARM front-end.

It never came to market and no future development has happened on the design either. AMD are not interested in designing their own ARM cores currently, they're fully focused on x86.

(Btw, the design team that worked on K12 later worked on Zen 3).

Like I said earlier in this thread (probably multiple times by now, I actually don't know on that but I know I've said it at least once): what you're looking at right now is a semi-custom product with standard ARM core IP put together with AMD fabrics (I think, I'm not 100% sure on this one) and GPU IP for an APU. That's it, just a semi-custom product.you really need to strop trying to read into this any more than that.
Agreed. This stuff is getting ridiculous.
 

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
661
407
106
I'm genuinely very interested to see how power efficiency compares to M4 and X4. X4 could already pull >10W single core in many workloads, and I'm pretty sure M4 can as well with how it looks like some ST tests benefit from wild cooling setups in the iPad. So I'm mostly interested to see if X5 will push even higher, or will it manage the significant performance uptick at the same or lower power.
Agreed.

X5’s average though in Specint and SpecFP was still not 10W. It was like 5.7 and 7 where Apple’s were also as high just with much performance. So yeah while that’s true, I could quote outliers in individual loads for AMD and Intel as well and it’d be fairly unpretty, they’re still ahead of what Phoenix etc would pull down (and remember those workloads measured full power including DRAM etc).

But I agree about the direction it and Apple has gone even if still more efficient than AMD/Intel from a system perspective — though they (Apple especially) get very upset about this because they believe their “core” really only consumes 4-5W for the whole machine lol. It’s hilarious and reminiscent of like, the other guys quoting package or core power. Everyone is completely full of it and it’s so tiresome.

Indeed RE: X5. They have as much IPC as the A14 almost, yet they’re pulling down much more power even on superior nodes. I’ve said this elsewhere, but Arm will need more than just improved IPC — they’ll need a better architecture RE: power, and more cache.

Did you see the M4 iPad GB6 test from a Chinese reviewer? Not the fake 7W BS, the 11W one, which makes far more sense to me, and was measured externally.


Except this is averaged over the entire load, and more telling. The performance of course is good, but the direction they’re going is clearly pushing power up more than nodes can afford.
 
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