8GB VRAM not enough (and 10 / 12)

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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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8GB
Horizon Forbidden West 3060 is faster than the 2080 Super despite the former usually competing with the 2070. Also 3060 has a better 1% low than 4060 and 4060Ti 8GB.
Resident Evil Village 3060TI/3070 tanks at 4K and is slower than the 3060/6700XT when ray tracing:
Company Of Heroes 3060 has a higher minimum than the 3070TI:

10GB / 12GB

Reasons why still shipping 8GB since 2014 isn't NV's fault.
  1. It's the player's fault.
  2. It's the reviewer's fault.
  3. It's the developer's fault.
  4. It's AMD's fault.
  5. It's the game's fault.
  6. It's the driver's fault.
  7. It's a system configuration issue.
  8. Wrong settings were tested.
  9. Wrong area was tested.
  10. Wrong games were tested.
  11. 4K is irrelevant.
  12. Texture quality is irrelevant as long as it matches a console's.
  13. Detail levels are irrelevant as long as they match a console's.
  14. There's no reason a game should use more than 8GB, because a random forum user said so.
  15. It's completely acceptable for the more expensive 3070/3070TI/3080 to turn down settings while the cheaper 3060/6700XT has no issue.
  16. It's an anomaly.
  17. It's a console port.
  18. It's a conspiracy against NV.
  19. 8GB cards aren't meant for 4K / 1440p / 1080p / 720p gaming.
  20. It's completely acceptable to disable ray tracing on NV while AMD has no issue.
  21. Polls, hardware market share, and game title count are evidence 8GB is enough, but are totally ignored when they don't suit the ray tracing agenda.
According to some people here, 8GB is neeeevaaaaah NV's fault and objective evidence "doesn't count" because of reasons(tm). If you have others please let me know and I'll add them to the list. Cheers!
 
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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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CouncilorIrissa said:
My favourite part about the VRAM debate is comparing it to community's consensus around RAM capacity, which is "you can never go wrong with having as much RAM as possible".
Click to expand...
Yep, history has shown repeatedly high VRAM cards age far better than low ones, e.g. 960 2/4, 1060 3/6, 580 4/8, etc. Yet despite this, we've had a constant stream of certain individuals on the internet arguing otherwise.

Heck, go back far enough in this very forum and you'll see people defending 320MB 8000GTS over 640MB, despite launch reviews already showing problems.


OMG guys, even back then "wrong settings" were being used. Will the injustice to Papa Jensen never end???
 
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DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
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CouncilorIrissa said:
My favourite part about the VRAM debate is comparing it to community's consensus around RAM capacity, which is "you can never go wrong with having as much RAM as possible". Remember how much crap (deservedly so) Apple get whenever they announce their new MacBook featuring 8GB RAM as the base configuration? But somehow it's totally fine to charge through the nose for a 4060Ti 8GB.

Jensen's reality distortion field is superior to that of Apple at this point. Amazing.
Click to expand...
There is no debate, all that's left is a textbook case of the backfire effect. 100% is not required for a consensus. There is a consensus; 8GB for $300 is a terrible investment. With the caveat that there are some niche use cases for the 4060 where it is a good pick due to power, heat, and space constraints.

The 4060ti 8GB has zero reason to exist beyond parting loyal customers and the unknowing from their money. While ensuring it ages like warm milk thus encouraging upgrades long before it would otherwise be necessary aka planned obsolescence.

Bar graphs are increasingly less and less relevant, as is the testing methodology attached to most of them. The test runs are too short, and often in locations unsuited to conveying the full gaming experience. When not using canned benchmarks that mostly stress the GPU while under stressing the CPU compared to intense gameplay. Traditionally the charts were used as appeal to authority, one of the strongest debating tactics. Here in 2024 most are more anachronism than authority.
 
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T

Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
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GodisanAtheist said:
You guys aren't playing the correct games tho. I'm running 2012 Dragon's Dogma on my 6GB 980ti SteamBox just fine, 60 FPS locked, max settings.

Any smart ass retorts to that? Didn't think so...

Don't worry @psolord I got yo back
Click to expand...

I suppose if you are 12 years behind on your gaming backlog then 8GB is just fine as long as you stick to correct settings.
 
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psolord

Golden Member
Sep 16, 2009
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BFG10K said:
OMG guys, check out how awesome I am.


1080p is clearly "incorrect settings" for a 4060TI, everyone knows it's a 720p card, yo.

Also guys, check it out, 87FPS is the same as 18FPS. And minimums don't matter, so 65FPS 1% low is the same as 10FPS 1% low and proves 16GB is "wasted" on the 4060TI.

Absolutely no difference between the frametime graphs either, no siree.

Guys, guys, we've proven I'm not a liar and I'm not legally blind!
Click to expand...

It is clearly shown that the video ram is just a little above 8GBs. Therefore it is spilling over the framebuffer of the base 8GB model. This is what I call stupid settings. Yes in situations like these, the 16GB model will perform much better. However of all that 16GBs, only 1 or 2GBs more will be used compared to the 8GB model. There is no way the 4060ti 16GB will face a full 16GB dataset and will be able to process it properly. See above the unobtainum preset on the 4090. It is below 16GBs and still cannot run properly. On the freagin 4090.


And no you don't have to use 720p, although quite probably dlss would run fine. In this situation, my solution is simple. Turn the effin RT OFF. Problem solved. The 4060ti 8GB will run fine.

Case in point, my rx6600 run of Callisto Protocol (non monetized). Timestamped at about where the above screenshots are from.




The rx6600 is doing what it can, at Ultra preset, still playable although a bit handicapped by the rest of the system, however the point is, that the vram is at 6GBs, without RT. This is a 17 minute run btw.

So if the rx6600 can do 1080p Ultra, the 4060ti 8GB will do it even better. And the more expensive 16GB model, will have an added feature. Why do we have to be saying the same things over and over?

I said it before. The 16GB model will have SOME advantages in some cases. I never said they will be the exact same. For the vast majority of cases, when things will be gpu heavy, they will both tank. In which case, save your money and get a better card from the get go.

And speaking of Callisto protocol, this is my run on the freagin Radeon 7950. (non monetized)


and here is a picture at the same location at medium preset.



Is it butt ugly? No. And we are talking about a 3GB card ffs. It is not ideal, I'll tell you that, but all things considered, and for a card from 2012, son I'm impressed.
 
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psolord

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igor_kavinski said:
One wonders if psolord is really scared of 8GB suddenly going the way of the dodo. Almost like he has a whole warehouse full of them somewhere...

Anyone else here from Greece? Is someone there running ads on the TV with the blurb, "8GB is more than enough and more than you could ever need! Call 800-PSOLORD to place your order now!".
Click to expand...
Nuh, I only have three. And as I keep telling everyone, they are doing a fine job, for their respective tiers, while at the same time, they give vastly different results, despite their same framebuffer. You know why? Because I am not turning everything over 9000 and then complain.
 
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psolord

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nurturedhate said:
This is what we have been saying and what you have been arguing against...
Click to expand...
No. Far from it. 8GBs is the norm now, but my take on the 8GB matter, is that gpus will run out of gpu power sooner. That means that you will have to reduce your settings anyway. This will take down vram requirements as well.

The other main argument from my opposing camp here, is that you will have to reduce the most important asset, which is the textures.

That's why I have shown you my examples, in TLOU that textures indeed hammer the memory, but the high preset is damn fine, virtually indistinguishable, with 1.5GBs less vram usage. Then in Horizon Forbidden West, all my runs were done at max textures and anistropy, but not maxed settings. And after we have gone past the textures, no we will have to put RT into the mix too. I mean there's no winning with you guys. You want access to the premium features, from all tier cards. Yeah good luck with that. You will never be happy.
 
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reggie_fils_aime

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Mar 8, 2024
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psolord said:
I mean there's no winning with you guys. You want access to the premium features, from all tier cards. Yeah good luck with that. You will never be happy.
Click to expand...

No, we want adequate performance for the money asked. Every day we see a new game proving the inadequacy of Nvidia's "budget" offerings, where their advertised feature sets are almost entirely negated by their inadequate VRAM buffers and memory subsystems. Paying 400 dollars for a card (4060Ti 8G) that gets utterly rinsed by cheaper years-old competition (the 6750 XT) is very extremely silly. Anything that can be done to keep people from buying one is a service to the PC industry as a whole.
 
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Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
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psolord said:
So if the rx6600 can do 1080p Ultra, the 4060ti 8GB will do it even better. And the more expensive 16GB model, will have an added feature. Why do we have to be saying the same things over and over?
Click to expand...

The issue is when the 4060Ti 8GB offers a worse experience than the 3060 12GB or 7600XT which are bother lower tier parts and we know it happens now and then because the 3070 and 3070Ti can fall behind the 3060 12GB in certain scenarios.

When your $500 or $600 MSRP GPU loses to a $330 MSRP GPU you have an issue.
 
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Mopetar

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Jan 31, 2011
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psolord said:
It is clearly shown that the video ram is just a little above 8GBs. Therefore it is spilling over the framebuffer of the base 8GB model. This is what I call stupid settings.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a very roundabout way to state and then cope with the fact that 8 GB isn't enough.

The rest of your post is just more supercilious silliness. If I could find some game where the other hardware resources of the 4060 Ti aren't fully utilized, could those also be considered overkill? NVidia should have cut back on the shaders if they can't keep them fed.

All you do is demonstrate that the 4060 Ti should have had a wider bus and 12 GB of VRAM, because it's otherwise too lopsided of a design. Insisting otherwise was arguments over "correct" settings is only going to lead to consumers making poor purchasing decisions and companies not correcting their behavior.
 
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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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Guys, guys, I'm back again! This time demonstrating my superior math skills and ability to comprehend elementary benchmarking results that a child could understand.


See that 13GB? It clearly shows VRAM "just a little above 8GB". That's right folks, 63% more is "just a little above".

Also 1% 82FPS clearly shows the card "can't process the data set properly", so that makes it "stupid". It's so clear to everyone here, yo.

But guys, that's not the best part. Because it isn't using all 16GB, that means 13GB is equal to 8GB! That's right guys, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 are all the same numbers, and it makes no difference which one it is!

It's only when you get to 16 that the number really changes, until then it just pretends to change! My friends, I'm afraid the numbers have tricked us all this time.

OMG guys, my pants are on fire right now with this math discovery. Someone give me Nobel prize!
 
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Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
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BFG10K said:
Guys, guys, I'm back again! This time demonstrating my superior math skills and ability to comprehend elementary benchmarking results that a child could understand.


See that 13GB? It clearly shows VRAM "just a little above 8GB". That's right folks, 63% more is "just a little above".

Also 1% 82FPS clearly shows the card "can't process the data set properly", so that makes it "stupid". It's so clear to everyone here, yo.

But guys, that's not the best part. Because it isn't using all 16GB, that means 13GB is equal to 8GB! That's right guys, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 are all the same numbers, and it makes no difference which one it is!

It's only when you get to 16 that the number really changes, until then it just pretends to change! My friends, I'm afraid the numbers have tricked us all this time.

OMG guys, my pants are on fire right now with this math discovery. Someone give me Nobel prize!
Click to expand...

But it uses so much more power that it will cost a lot more to run over the life time of the card making it stupid. Just buy a more expensive card instead.
 
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psolord

Golden Member
Sep 16, 2009
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BFG10K said:
Guys, guys, I'm back again! This time demonstrating my superior math skills and ability to comprehend elementary benchmarking results that a child could understand.


See that 13GB? It clearly shows VRAM "just a little above 8GB". That's right folks, 63% more is "just a little above".

Also 1% 82FPS clearly shows the card "can't process the data set properly", so that makes it "stupid". It's so clear to everyone here, yo.

But guys, that's not the best part. Because it isn't using all 16GB, that means 13GB is equal to 8GB! That's right guys, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 are all the same numbers, and it makes no difference which one it is!

It's only when you get to 16 that the number really changes, until then it just pretends to change! My friends, I'm afraid the numbers have tricked us all this time.

OMG guys, my pants are on fire right now with this math discovery. Someone give me Nobel prize!
Click to expand...
Unfortunately for you, math skills is not the only thing required. Sometimes you have to do some reading between the lines or I don't know, some testing of your own?

I mean it's RE4 remake, you know I would have tested it right?

Here is my GTX 1070 run (non monetized).


This is using the MAX preset as well. The vram requirements are clearly shown in the settings. 12.2GB out of 7.14GB available. That's 71% higher vram requirements than what the GTX 1070 has.




However as you can see, the game runs fine. And on a pci 2.0 8b/10b bus, on an ancient 2500k, which you know will be handicapped....

And I also have a freagin GTX 970 run, with also overshot settings above it's vram requirements, but not as extreme and yet the game runs fine too. Not ideal but fine. No texture missing, no pop ups, no blurryness no nothing. Once again, your are making a fuss about nothing.

 
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psolord

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reggie_fils_aime said:
No, we want adequate performance for the money asked. Every day we see a new game proving the inadequacy of Nvidia's "budget" offerings, where their advertised feature sets are almost entirely negated by their inadequate VRAM buffers and memory subsystems. Paying 400 dollars for a card (4060Ti 8G) that gets utterly rinsed by cheaper years-old competition (the 6750 XT) is very extremely silly. Anything that can be done to keep people from buying one is a service to the PC industry as a whole.
Click to expand...
We are only seeing extreme examples, easily solvable with one or two mouse clicks. You are chosing to see the problem and not solve it. Especially in the case of the 4060ti 16GB, it is the definition of waste of money. You can actually get a good next gen card, in the form of the 4070, with a little more money.

The 6750XT was always a good card. It may consume 100W more than the 4060ti but still. If you have a sum up with a good number of games, I'd like to study it.

However, talking about vram and buses in a tech forum, like they are the most important factors, is silly. Nvidia's new hardware are different beasts. Look at RE4, as the conversation brought it to surface.



I mean look at the 4060ti compared to the 2080 super. Both 8GBs, but at 1440p the 2080 super goes tits up, while the 4060ti holds nicely.

AMD's 12GB cards hold up nicely of course. We know that RE4 can be busty. ALL that however, is easily solvable, with zero image impact. The game has been manufactured that way, to cause problems. It's sponsored. It happens.
 
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psolord

Golden Member
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Timorous said:
The issue is when the 4060Ti 8GB offers a worse experience than the 3060 12GB or 7600XT which are bother lower tier parts and we know it happens now and then because the 3070 and 3070Ti can fall behind the 3060 12GB in certain scenarios.

When your $500 or $600 MSRP GPU loses to a $330 MSRP GPU you have an issue.
Click to expand...
Maybe in some extreme examples, where all cards will fall to unplayable results.

Next gen will kill them all.

Case in point, ARK Survival Ascended. Retested yesterday by gamegpu.

Ark: Survival Ascended Client v39.4 - Server: v39.6: PC Performance Benchmarks for Graphics Cards and Processors | MMORPG / Online games | GPU TEST

We tested Ark: Survival Ascended Client v39.4 - Server: v39.6 at the highest graphics settings, on video cards from the GEFORCE RTX and RADEON RX series. Also, during the tests we conducted, we app
gamegpu.tech



Again, these are 1080P results. lol

Good luck with these 20fps on the 3060 12GB.

VRAM usage shows that it can indeed go above 8GBs, but what's the point? Everyone will have to use correct settings and upon doing so, the gpu power is what will come on top.
 
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