8GB VRAM not enough (and 10 / 12)

[BFG10K]

8GB

• Dying Light 2, Battlefield 2042, Avatar Frontiers of Pandora, Call of Duty Modern Warfare 3, Starfield, Forza Horizon 5, Horizon Forbidden West, Alan Wake 2, The Last of Us, Tekken 8, FC 24, Detroit Become Human, Death Stranding, Alone in The Dark, Overwatch 2
  3060 12GB higher 1% low than 4060 8GB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIfz57wmywg
• Cyberpunk 2077, Diablo 4, Hogwarts Legacy, Horizon Zero Dawn, Microsoft Flight Sim 2020, Witcher 3, Watch Dogs Legion skip to 4K + DLSS for each game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPiaWWd0xGc
• Ratchet & Clank, Plague Tale Requiem, Last Of Us, Jedi Survivor, Far Cry 6, Hogwarts Legacy, Forza Horizon 5, Cyberpunk 2077 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr3MckDxMfE&pp=ygUTMTZnYiB2cyA4Z2IgNDA2MCB0aQ==
• Far Cry 6, Godfall, Hogwarts Legacy, Forza Horizon 5, Forspoken, Doom Eternal, Watchdogs Legion https://youtu.be/fJc--C01P90?t=268
• Last Of Us, Resident Evil 4, Callisto Protocol, Plague Tale Requiem, Halo Infinite, Forspoken https://youtu.be/2_Y3E631ro8?t=429
• Last Of Us, Hogwarts Legacy, Resident Evil 4, Forspoken, Plague Tale Requiem, Callisto Protocol https://youtu.be/Rh7kFgHe21k?t=288
• Hogwarts Legacy, Last Of Us, Spider Man Remastered, Doom Eternal, Forza Horizon 5 https://youtu.be/R943CbDTq_s?t=1473
• Horizon Forbidden West 4060 has issues @ 1080p + DLSS unless you switch off frame generation and reduce settings to high https://youtu.be/3AyKvI23VGw?t=233
• Horizon Forbidden West 3070 requires reducing textures 2 notches https://youtu.be/xTwEGy6HHKo?t=351
• Deathloop https://youtu.be/lu_XHyO-6zY?t=918
• Ghost Recon Breakpoint https://youtu.be/iUGppQVpXzU?t=529
• Resident Evil 2 https://youtu.be/Aa-gsgRjMII?t=796
• Talos Principle 2 https://youtu.be/K6FATQAuEwI?t=337
• Spider Man Remastered https://youtu.be/vRVR_plVSlc?t=1060
• Witcher 3 https://youtu.be/vRVR_plVSlc?t=1240

Horizon Forbidden West 3060 is faster than the 2080 Super despite the former usually competing with the 2070. Also 3060 has a better 1% low than 4060 and 4060Ti 8GB.

Spoiler

Resident Evil Village 3060TI/3070 tanks at 4K and is slower than the 3060/6700XT when ray tracing:

Spoiler

Company Of Heroes 3060 has a higher minimum than the 3070TI:

Spoiler

10GB / 12GB

• Plague Tale Requiem 3080 10GB tanks if you enable ray tracing, would be fast enough if it had more VRAM because if you stop moving, the framerate stabilizes to >60FPS https://youtu.be/7zjrMww3fAc?t=496
• Hogwarts Legacy 4K + RT, 4060Ti 16GB is faster than 4070 12GB https://youtu.be/X-h_R488Mq8?t=191

Reasons why still shipping 8GB since 2014 isn't NV's fault.

Spoiler

1. It's the player's fault.
2. It's the reviewer's fault.
3. It's the developer's fault.
4. It's AMD's fault.
5. It's the game's fault.
6. It's the driver's fault.
7. It's a system configuration issue.
8. Wrong settings were tested.
9. Wrong area was tested.
10. Wrong games were tested.
11. 4K is irrelevant.
12. Texture quality is irrelevant as long as it matches a console's.
13. Detail levels are irrelevant as long as they match a console's.
14. There's no reason a game should use more than 8GB, because a random forum user said so.
15. It's completely acceptable for the more expensive 3070/3070TI/3080 to turn down settings while the cheaper 3060/6700XT has no issue.
16. It's an anomaly.
17. It's a console port.
18. It's a conspiracy against NV.
19. 8GB cards aren't meant for 4K / 1440p / 1080p / 720p gaming.
20. It's completely acceptable to disable ray tracing on NV while AMD has no issue.
21. Polls, hardware market share, and game title count are evidence 8GB is enough, but are totally ignored when they don't suit the ray tracing agenda.

According to some people here, 8GB is neeeevaaaaah NV's fault and objective evidence "doesn't count" because of reasons(tm). If you have others please let me know and I'll add them to the list. Cheers!

 

[NTMBK]

NV PR running damage control:

A Deeper Look At VRAM On GeForce RTX 40 Series Graphics Cards

What is VRAM? How much do I need? Does bus width matter? These questions and more are answered in our new explainer article.

www.nvidia.com

The obfuscation is strong with that one, like the implication that lower memory hits due to the cache somehow removes the need to have the data in VRAM in the first place. As if the textures can live in lalala-land or something.

And guys, guys, nVidia has released 3 new tools to degrade image quality ever further. You know, because 8GB is totally not their fault, yo.

The gross thing is that they're selling the bigger L2 as some big new innovation. They did this way back in the 750ti! That put 2MB with a 128-bit bus way back in 2014. 2MB to 32MB is just keeping up with Moore's Law scaling... Oh, and they increased the price from $150 to $500.

 

[psolord]

Could be they are getting a lot of flak from angry 4070 Ti owners who are pissed that the 4060 Ti gets 16GB while they have to make do with only 12GB, despite paying more.

HEY!

I am not pissed at Nvidia for making a 4060ti 16GB. xD

Was I pissed when they made a 12GB 3060, as a 3060ti 8GB owner? No!

Also the 12GB not enough thread, is not even a thing yet, so I'm good!

 

[psolord]

On a more serious note and on a separate post, so it does not seem I am attacking my friend Igor's comment, I will not really argue if more vram is better, because it sure is.

I just want to say, that I have three 8GB cards, a 1070, a rx6600 and a 3060ti and they are NOTHING alike. I see some posters here, somewhat drawing an imaginary line at 8GB and thinking that everything with 8GB is the same. Well they are not.

And since I mentioned the 3060 12GB in my previous post, I have gathered a few of the latest gamegpu's benchmarks.

imgbox - fast, simple image host

Use imgbox to upload, host and share all your images. It's simple, free and blazing fast!

imgbox.com

Talking specifically about a weaker card, with more vram, compared to a stronger card, with less vram, both at the same architecture, I don't see how the 12GB framebuffer of the 3060 is helping it, compared to the 8GB 3060ti, two years later. For me, two years, is a complete life cycle for a graphics card. Now will another two years prove disastrous for the 3060ti, compared to the 3060? Personally I don't think so. We will see of course, but I don't care either, since I have moved on already and by then I will have moved again.

I am not rich by a long shot, but it seems to me, we are making too much of a fuss, for a cost that ultimately is something like 15-30 bucks per month, to go to the next big thing two years later. Probably it's even less, if you sell your old card. Someone will have a use for it for sure.

 

[BFG10K]

7600XT is shaping up to be equally crap. AMD's pulling the same stunt of "effective bandwidth". The memory's "upscaled", yo. Next they'll be calling Infinity Cache "aye eye".

I'm getting tired of companies being able to lie just because they put marketing words in front of their claims.

AMD Radeon RX 7600 Final Specs and Power Figures Leaked, Uses 6 nm

Here are the final specifications of the Radeon RX 7600 RDNA3 graphics card, bound for launch later this month. The specs list springs up some surprises. To begin with, while the GPU at the heart of the RX 7600 is based on the latest RDNA3 graphics architecture, it is built on the older 6 nm...

www.techpowerup.com

Only thing that'll save it is a good price like $199, but I expect $300+ which also makes it DOA.

 

[KompuKare]

Memo to me when discussing GPUs: ignore serial upgraders!

Because I want my cards to last a lot longer than 2 years!

 

[Aapje]

For me, two years, is a complete life cycle for a graphics card

Probably it's even less, if you sell your old card. Someone will have a use for it for sure.

You are being very inconsistent here. If you expect the card to have value on the second hand market, then the life cycle of the card lasts beyond the 2 years that you use it for. I don't think you understand how life cycles of products work, if you think that your desire to use it for only 2 years means that the actual life cycle of the product is two years.

And upgrading from a 3060 Ti to a 4060 Ti 8 GB is a really, really bad deal, with the minimal uplift.

Of course, you may be one of these people who doesn't so much base their decisions on how much better the new product is, but rather just really likes the novelty of getting something new. There are plenty of people like that, but they are hardly representative of those who care about value for money and are perfectly willing to stick with something for 4 years or longer (or have to, because they don't have that much money).

 

[Ranulf]

On a more serious note and on a separate post, so it does not seem I am attacking my friend Igor's comment, I will not really argue if more vram is better, because it sure is.

I just want to say, that I have three 8GB cards, a 1070, a rx6600 and a 3060ti and they are NOTHING alike. I see some posters here, somewhat drawing an imaginary line at 8GB and thinking that everything with 8GB is the same. Well they are not.

And since I mentioned the 3060 12GB in my previous post, I have gathered a few of the latest gamegpu's benchmarks.

imgbox - fast, simple image host

Use imgbox to upload, host and share all your images. It's simple, free and blazing fast!

imgbox.com

Talking specifically about a weaker card, with more vram, compared to a stronger card, with less vram, both at the same architecture, I don't see how the 12GB framebuffer of the 3060 is helping it, compared to the 8GB 3060ti, two years later. For me, two years, is a complete life cycle for a graphics card. Now will another two years prove disastrous for the 3060ti, compared to the 3060? Personally I don't think so. We will see of course, but I don't care either, since I have moved on already and by then I will have moved again.

I am not rich by a long shot, but it seems to me, we are making too much of a fuss, for a cost that ultimately is something like 15-30 bucks per month, to go to the next big thing two years later. Probably it's even less, if you sell your old card. Someone will have a use for it for sure.

I can go back to the old upgrade every 2-3 years mindset if you actually get decent upgrades every 1-2 generations. When the "midrange card" is equal to the high end or better. WHen the 1060 beats a 980. When my mid range card is half price of the previous gen's top end as it were. It doesn't help when these companies are now pushing the software side to get performance uplift so that my ultimate 1080p card is above way $300 now, pushing $400-500 can run all the bells and whistles, the traced rays and such at 720p upscaled to 1080p. Same thing applies to the whole rest of the lineup. So much for advancement. Pay more money, get less value and buggy games that you should wait 6-12 months for fixes and discounts to buy.

 

[BFG10K]

The 4060TI unearthed four more games with issues. Control (NV's poster-child for RT back in the day) and Halo Infinite have blurry textures because they don't load properly on 8GB cards.

Also stuttering in Spider Man and Forza compared to a 12GB 6700XT.

RTX 4060 Ti 8GB - we just can't recommend it [Full Review]

Today we are putting the RTX 4060 Ti 8GB through its paces. Built on AD106 silicon, this new GPU promises extraordinary efficiency, but question marks loom o...

youtu.be

We probably now have around 20 games in this thread where 8GB is an objective problem. Who knows how many other games done on previous 8GB hardware are invalid because reviewers didn't check texture quality? Even in 4060TI tests, some reviewers still claim no issues with 8GB, in the very same games shown in this thread.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Also stuttering in Spider Man and Forza compared to a 12GB 6700XT.

RTX 4060 Ti 8GB - we just can't recommend it [Full Review]

Today we are putting the RTX 4060 Ti 8GB through its paces. Built on AD106 silicon, this new GPU promises extraordinary efficiency, but question marks loom o...

youtu.be

Dom showing the issue in Spiderman is another great example of why average gaming performance bar charts and all the other charts following on the heels, are worthless to me. The 6700XT has significantly lower averages but provides a markedly better experience. Yet those basically worthless average numbers will have pages of analysis stemming from it.

 

[coercitiv]

KitGuru have got this all wrong, those are not the frame times, they're the soundtrack!

 

[Ranulf]

Dom showing the issue in Spiderman is another great example of why average gaming performance bar charts and all the other charts following on the heels, are worthless to me. The 6700XT has significantly lower averages but provides a markedly better experience. Yet those basically worthless average numbers will have pages of analysis stemming from it.

I tend to favor the 1% lows over the average fps these days. Give me what the absolute worst observed numbers were as that will show how bad it can get and that might make a game unplayable overall.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I tend to favor the 1% lows over the average fps these days. Give me what the absolute worst observed numbers were as that will show how bad it can get and that might make a game unplayable overall.

You have the acumen necessary to translate the 1% into something you can visualize as gameplay. I doubt most gamers do that. Watching gameplay with AB info ensures any gamer benefits.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

7600XT is shaping up to be equally crap. AMD's pulling the same stunt of "effective bandwidth". The memory's "upscaled", yo. Next they'll be calling Infinity Cache "aye eye".

-If I'm not mistaken, AMD coined the "effective bandwidth" thing back with RDNA2, so it's not some newfangled thing. We event went through the whole "Ewww 6900xt has 256-bit bus, that's mid-range" there too and that's never a good look. The issue this gen is a branding and price issue, the underlying tech is fine and the performance "cap" of this gen increased in like with historical average (AMD) to historical best (Nvidia).

I tend to favor the 1% lows over the average fps these days. Give me what the absolute worst observed numbers were as that will show how bad it can get and that might make a game unplayable overall.

-1% lows are still an isolated data point. Remember the whole FRAPS thing that took off back in the day thanks to NV pressing it's frametime advantage against AMD in reviews? Time for any reviewer with a backbone to dust off those frame time tools and include those in reviews. Same with image quality analysis, was a big deal back in the day before AF was solved and there was all kinds of hidden trickery from ATI and NV in improving performance. That needs to come back too (outside of DLSS and FSR reviews).

 

[Ranulf]

Sure, more data is better but I view it as more important than avg. fps and frame time. A low 1% means you should go look at frame time even more. HUB and one or two of the other reviews I've seen today have included frametime graphs as well. HUB as mentioned I think in this thread showed the problems with Plague Tail and Halo Infinite with frame time.

 

[psolord]

You are being very inconsistent here. If you expect the card to have value on the second hand market, then the life cycle of the card lasts beyond the 2 years that you use it for. I don't think you understand how life cycles of products work, if you think that your desire to use it for only 2 years means that the actual life cycle of the product is two years.

And upgrading from a 3060 Ti to a 4060 Ti 8 GB is a really, really bad deal, with the minimal uplift.

Of course, you may be one of these people who doesn't so much base their decisions on how much better the new product is, but rather just really likes the novelty of getting something new. There are plenty of people like that, but they are hardly representative of those who care about value for money and are perfectly willing to stick with something for 4 years or longer (or have to, because they don't have that much money).

I said for ME the life cycle of graphics card is two years, not for everyone. When you sell it (if you sell it), the person that will get it, knowingly gets something old, so they will have to act accordingly with their settings. I still do performance tests of old cards to this day, and they are usable with correct settings.

Case in point, two examples of the super old Radeon 7950 (non monetized).

If the 3GB 7950 is not useless, how are 8GB cards useless? They become useless if the user cranks everything over 9000 and expects it to run correctly.

Now if you want to argue specifically for something like a 399$ 8GB 4060ti, saying it's expensive for what it offers, I will not argue, but that's a matter of pricing and not only a matter of 8GB per se.

I never said anything about upgrading from a 3060ti to a 4060ti though. I did upgrade to a 4070ti and this is a solid upgrade. The 3060ti is now connected on a 1080p panel and runs like a champ. If I would have sold it, the 4070ti would have come much cheaper, but speaking for myself, I am not selling anything. I am just mentioning what is possible. Nvidia and AMD know this and they are factoring it in, in their prices.

Ultimately markets regulate themselves. No matter how much complaining buyers do, it only damages their own psyche. I know for a fact that the 4070ti was 200 coins more expensive than it should. Am I going to bitch about it for two years? No because it's an extra of 8.3 coins per month. I can live with that. When prices get so bad, where I (or most people) cannot live with that, then the market self regulation will come into play. Either I will be kicked out of the tier I like, or the market will subside.

 

[Timorous]

-1% lows are still an isolated data point. Remember the whole FRAPS thing that took off back in the day thanks to NV pressing it's frametime advantage against AMD in reviews? Time for any reviewer with a backbone to dust off those frame time tools and include those in reviews. Same with image quality analysis, was a big deal back in the day before AF was solved and there was all kinds of hidden trickery from ATI and NV in improving performance. That needs to come back too (outside of DLSS and FSR reviews).

HUB have started doing that. The devoted a whole section in their 4060Ti review to showing the playability and the texture swapping issues that they encountered.

Sometimes the impact of low VRAM does not show up in the FPS numbers because the title does a good job of keeping frame rates steady by constantly texture swapping and making the whole thing look awful.

 

[Aapje]

If the 3GB 7950 is not useless, how are 8GB cards useless?

This is just a straw man, because no one is arguing that the card is useless.

Now if you want to argue specifically for something like a 399$ 8GB 4060ti, saying it's expensive for what it offers, I will not argue, but that's a matter of pricing and not only a matter of 8GB per se.

Yes, and that's exactly what I'm arguing, that the card is really poor value for money. And not even so much in terms of how it compares to the competition, but in relation to how much value you will get from the card compared to previous generations. For example, for how long in the future you can play new AAA games on reasonably high settings or how well it performs at 1440p (in particular the 1% lows).

I never said anything about upgrading from a 3060ti to a 4060ti though. I did upgrade to a 4070ti and this is a solid upgrade.

It better be if you are paying almost twice as much. However, a proper value for money comparison requires that you look at what the new generation brings for the same money (where an inflation correction may be reasonable, although even that has caveats.)

Ultimately markets regulate themselves.

Economists have actually established a long time ago that markets do not optimally self regulate, for a lot of different reasons, like barriers to entry, which is a major factor when it comes to GPUs, as Intel is demonstrating right now.

 

[BFG10K]

KitGuru have got this all wrong, those are not the frame times, they're the soundtrack!

It's ironic that Doom Eternal was the first game in this thread. Things have come full circle.

I still can't understand how some other 4060TI reviewers claim to see no issues with 8GB. Videos show objective proof, just test the same areas.

 

[Timorous]

It's ironic that Doom Eternal was the first game in this thread. Things have come full circle.

I still can't understand how some other 4060TI reviewers claim to see no issues with 8GB. Videos show objective proof, just test the same areas.

With how some games handle running out of VRAM (texture swapping) to keep playable frame rates I can no longer trust reviews that simply throw FPS bars at me. Unless they show the IQ was the same I am going to disregard their reviews.

It is not exactly apples to apples when you have the 4060Ti being 30% ahead of the 6700XT in Hogwarts when the latter is producing a vastly superior image and the former looks like a trod on chip.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1661119867242651650

 

[igor_kavinski]

The 4060 Ti image looks two dimensional. Like almost no bump mapping. No depth perception.

I've seen better graphics on PS3.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

With how some games handle running out of VRAM (texture swapping) to keep playable frame rates I can no longer trust reviews that simply throw FPS bars at me. Unless they show the IQ was the same I am going to disregard their reviews.

It is not exactly apples to apples when you have the 4060Ti being 30% ahead of the 6700XT in Hogwarts when the latter is producing a vastly superior image and the former looks like a trod on chip.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1661119867242651650

Welcome aboard my war wagon mate. I have been on a years long diatribe about this. Their testing methodology is repeatable and scientifically sound. It's also inadequate. It fails to reflect the actual gaming experience. 25-60 runs early on in games. Not watching, and LISTENING. Audio issues are one of the biggest OOFs with underpowered CPUs. Not watching means you didn't observe the assets not loading, the NPCs missing, the texture pop in, your friends on discord hearing garbled or not at all.

I could go on and on. I am stoked that some like Aussie Steve are returning to actually playing the games for a good bit, and recording the experiences. It is the only way to truly serve the consumers/gamers you are advocating for.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

The 4060 Ti image looks two dimensional. Like almost no bump mapping. No depth perception.

I've seen better graphics on PS3.

I did a tongue and cheek vram = console generation a while back. I am starting to think it wasn't funny, it was depressingly on point. Firm handshake for you🤝

 

[psolord]

Regarding Hogwarts, mentioned above, I have done a run on it, at 4k/ultra/dlss on the 8GB 3060ti. (non monetized)

This is a ten minute run, not 30sec/1min, because I want to stress all system components. It seems to me it run OK, although the 3060ti was not meant for such settings. Especially the second part of the run, which has a heavier troll fight, I think it's OK, I mean I don't see blurry textures or shadows missing.

I now have a 12GB card though, so I can retest.

I cannot be 100% certain there is nothing missing, but by reductio ad absurdum, compared to what I saw on the GTX 970 medium settings, there are clear differences, so I think it was OK.

EDIT PS If anyone of you wizkids, has any guide in mind, where I can learn how I can do side by side videos, using my runs, I'd like to know, thanks.

 

[psolord]

This is just a straw man, because no one is arguing that the card is useless.

Oh ok then, because the vibes I'm getting from this thread, is that they are and as an owner of three of them, I can attest they are not.

Yes, and that's exactly what I'm arguing, that the card is really poor value for money. And not even so much in terms of how it compares to the competition, but in relation to how much value you will get from the card compared to previous generations. For example, for how long in the future you can play new AAA games on reasonably high settings or how well it performs at 1440p (in particular the 1% lows).

No arguments from me here.

The 4060ti, is clearly not a 4060ti. As most of the 40 series nvidia cards should be one tier down. But this is another topic altogether.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Regarding Hogwarts, mentioned above, I have done a run on it, at 4k/ultra/dlss on the 8GB 3060ti. (non monetized)

This is a ten minute run, not 30sec/1min, because I want to stress all system components. It seems to me it run OK, although the 3060ti was not meant for such settings. Especially the second part of the run, which has a heavier troll fight, I think it's OK, I mean I don't see blurry textures or shadows missing.

I recently sold my 3060ti, which I bought during the pandemic for $449 through the Newegg shuffle. It's a good thing I have the money to waste, because I feel like it was a bad purchase in retrospect.

You are running Hogwarts at 1080 ultra no RT. You may think the upscaled image looks better than native 1080, cool, but it's still 1080 not 4K. No way would I have been happy about my $450 card not being able to hold 1080 60 locked, with no RT, 18 months after I bought it.