Discussion Fallout 3/NV fan tries FO4 for the first time, and finds disappointment.

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Artorias

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2014
2,115
1,385
136
I've switched from survival difficulty to very hard and enjoying the game much more.

Survival is so poorly implemented that its just an exercise in frustration.
 
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GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
6,949
7,363
136
Lawd this game just needs to be over now. Level 42-ish, just completed the build molecular matter relay thing at the BOS Airport, visited the institute which piqued my interest again for a short stint before going back into more of the same.

Thinking it's time I beelined the main quest/faction quests and wrapped up my time with FO4.
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,238
5,244
136
Lots of games combine elements of several genres. Like rts with rpg elements. Some there the best games I played and that thinking out of the box is what creates new ideas.

Combining isn't the biggest problem. It's combining by morons, that do a crappy job of it. They Bethesda'd it up.

Take the Looter Shooter elements, likely inspired by the success of Borderlands.

Borderlands does the RNG Legendary tier weapon drop thing. Except in Borderlands you are ALWAYS finding better guns. It's a progression system.

FO4, there is no progression or tiers to the Legendary drops. There is maybe a one in hundreds of hours of play that you will find a good Legendary gun you want to use. I've played over 100 hours now. Haven't found a single decent Legendary weapon. I mostly find garbage like "Junkies Rolling Pin". Pure RNG garbage with no thought behind it. It's a TERRIBLE system. Look online and you will see people detailing how to spend your day farming to get a decent Legendary combo, and even if you do, well then you are done because their are no tiers. You could farm that explosive shotgun at level 10, and even at level 99 you can't farm a better one. This is just a thoughtless RNG system, done by incompetents that completely missed the point of Looter shooter elements they were attempting to emulate.

Look at the settlement building elements. I've enjoyed games where you build bases/settlements like RTS games, but they have UIs that it easy to do. The UI for settlement building in FO4 is so bad it literally made me sick. I got nauseous fighting it, trying place, orient items. It's hot garbage. Worse still your carefully crafted base defenses are useless, because unless you are actually in your base, they don't work. If you don't show up it's pure RNG again. The game does NOT factor in your walls, funneling everyone into kill zones. Because they don't actually place enemies and run them through your defenses. It's just a pure off screen RNG roll unless you show up in time.

I only cared about Sanctuary, I built tons of defenses because that's where my stuff was. Then much later, I noticed my Stuff was mostly gone. 70+ hours a tedious gathering of screws and duct tape, wiped out by off screen RNG. I narrowed it down to two saves. One where I still had my stuff and another 1 Minute later when my stuff was lost. First save I'm at Sanctuary. Have my stuff. Save one minute later had fast travelled far across the map, if immediately return, my stuff is already gone... Though I only noticed my stuff was gone 10 play hours later, because I don't build/craft very often, so reverting saves was not an option. Again, thoughtless design letting RNG just destroy game play.

Next up: Radiant Quests. This seems kind of MMO inspired to let you grind forever. While the Minutemen quests are most immediately and tediously obvious, all the factions have endless hamster wheel of empty meaningless RNG quests.

Notice that all over the place there is one major change in FO4: RNG (Random Number Generation). Instead of designing meaningful gameplay, they just put in place a bunch a poorly designed RNG systems to grind on.

All of this seems like a very half baked first step toward what they really want to do. Fallout online. AKA Fallout 76. Then you can spend your time grinding, but apparently more tolerable since you do it with other people. I'm not a fan of that, but apparently a lot of people are, and it's a big money maker.

But I really fail to see the point of a hollow RNG grind in single player.

So a whole bunch of grindy, poorly conceived and implemented RNG systems.

Even when you look at the scripted content, it's mostly bad, and lacking in fun/humor of past fallouts. Every faction rolls out the red carpet. Preston literally makes you General about 10 minutes after meeting him, you become the Railroads best agent, the BoS rising star and are offered the keys to the Institute Kingdom at the drop of a hat, and all at the same time.

All the companions seem to have the same script, about how you are the best dude/gal ever, that they never met anyone like that before and they can share all their hopes/fears. It's amateur hour cut and paste writing.

Oh and the visuals suck. I think FONV looks better. Here it's all mush and haze.

Not everything sucks. The gunplay is so much smoother now, and Nick Valentine is a great character, and ... well there isn't that much else. I'll finish this, but this won't make my top ten RPG list, but FO3 and FONV do.

I wish the could have spent their time making a traditional scripted story RPG, instead of an RNG grind infested, MMO stepping stone.
 
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DeathReborn

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 2005
2,750
746
136
Lawd this game just needs to be over now. Level 42-ish, just completed the build molecular matter relay thing at the BOS Airport, visited the institute which piqued my interest again for a short stint before going back into more of the same.

Thinking it's time I beelined the main quest/faction quests and wrapped up my time with FO4.
Before you consign it to the dumpster try it with a mod or 2, say Sim Settlements 2 - https://simsettlements2.com/ or Capital Wasteland - https://capitalwasteland.com/
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
6,949
7,363
136
Before you consign it to the dumpster try it with a mod or 2, say Sim Settlements 2 - https://simsettlements2.com/ or Capital Wasteland - https://capitalwasteland.com/

-Maybe one day, but I have SO MANY GAMES to experience and play that I am not going to go out of my way to make one of them more or less enjoyable through modding especially when it comes at the expense of a fresh new experience.

I liked FO4, its shown me what it has to show me, its time to wrap it up and move on to something else. Maybe come back and play Far Harbor or Nuka-World on a slow day but that's about it.
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,517
592
126
I think FO4's main/side quests and companions were pretty good. The settlement building is a fun diversion but little more than that, and the radiant quests should be completely ignored. The only weapons/armor worth finding are the unique variants, not the random legendary drops. At least I never got anything good out of those. Starfield has that same legendary drop system. Even if you find something good, it gets outclassed after a while by ordinary weapons at a higher level.
 
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GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
6,949
7,363
136
Once again got hit in the face with the proverbial tonal tuna when The Brotherhood of Steel wanted me to kill Paladin Danse, and Danse was so committed to BOS ideals that even he supported being killed because he was a Synth. And then I had to go wipe out the Railroad without any kind of warning from the game.

Ooofff that was pretty god damn rough and hit me in the feels right outta nowhere.

I turned off the frame limiter in my driver's too for the sake of smoother gameplay and faster load times, even if the speech is a bit off and I'm enjoying the game a whole lot more. To think I turned on the limiter because there was exactly one truck I could not jump into to complete a quest, but I've never been limited by jumping in the dozens of hours since...
 
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CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,517
592
126
Yeah that Danse quest line was really good and one of the high points of the game.

You have to get the mods I mentioned earlier, otherwise the game doesn't quite run properly at framerates higher than 60 even if it's allowed to. I was getting crashes every 5 minutes without it.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
6,949
7,363
136
Yeah that Danse quest line was really good and one of the high points of the game.

You have to get the mods I mentioned earlier, otherwise the game doesn't quite run properly at framerates higher than 60 even if it's allowed to. I was getting crashes every 5 minutes without it.

-No issues with crashing here, only the dialogue being cut a bit short and stuff like jumping a shorter height, which are minor tradeoffs for a much higher FPS and load speed.

I am trying to get things wrapped up with the main quest so not keen on installing any mods at this point.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
6,949
7,363
136
Alright, wrapped my first and likely only play through of Fallout 4, sided with the Brotherhood of Steel.

A lot of my prior issues were still there by the end of the game, same as the middle and beginning. Better than average game lifted by good ideas, kneecapped by some poor execution

The Good:
- Better writing and characters than prior Bethsoft entries (Valentine and Danse were standouts, as well as Kellogg).
- Better main quest structure than prior Bethsoft entries (Expectations subverted with "find son" main quest)
- Finally the ARPG that Bethsoft is comfortable with. Game never bothered to introduce me to VATS and I never needed it. Feels like Fallout 5 will drop VATS entirely.
-Remarkably stable vanilla experience. Only lock-up crash in 70 hours of gametime was on the final cutscene, which worked fine with a reload.
- Settlement system was a logical progression off Skyrim's build-a-house system.

The Bad:
- 80% MMORPG slog. Go here, kill 10 of that stuff.
- Uninspired crafting. Wore 3 items and used 3 guns over 50+ levels. Too much scrappable crap everywhere. Less stuff with more components please.
- Incredibly unintuitive gameplay and control scheme. Game has lengthy "tutorial" segment that doesn't actually bother explaining basic keybinds and functionality to the player.
- Dialogue options were really a meme.
- SPECIAL merged with Perks and skills are entirely gone. Just less opportunity for roleplay and it shows.
- Physics/loadtimes tied to framerate. Aside from annoying dialogue desync, it stopped me from completing precisely one quest in the entire game where I had to jump into the back of a truck.

In a lot of ways this game was carried by the Fallout brand and pure inertia of the series. I get the impression that a lot of Starfield's issues are that its Fallout 4 without bringing the dumptruck of nostalgia and charm the Fallout brand carries.

Anyhow, I have some waning desire to give Far Harbor and Nukaworld a shot, but more feeling burned out on FO4 and looking for a fresh experience at this point. Considering the game completed for all intents and purposes.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
15,636
7,966
136
Alright, wrapped my first and likely only play through of Fallout 4, sided with the Brotherhood of Steel.

A lot of my prior issues were still there by the end of the game, same as the middle and beginning. Better than average game lifted by good ideas, kneecapped by some poor execution

The Good:
- Better writing and characters than prior Bethsoft entries (Valentine and Danse were standouts, as well as Kellogg).
- Better main quest structure than prior Bethsoft entries (Expectations subverted with "find son" main quest)
- Finally the ARPG that Bethsoft is comfortable with. Game never bothered to introduce me to VATS and I never needed it. Feels like Fallout 5 will drop VATS entirely.
-Remarkably stable vanilla experience. Only lock-up crash in 70 hours of gametime was on the final cutscene, which worked fine with a reload.
- Settlement system was a logical progression off Skyrim's build-a-house system.

The Bad:
- 80% MMORPG slog. Go here, kill 10 of that stuff.
- Uninspired crafting. Wore 3 items and used 3 guns over 50+ levels. Too much scrappable crap everywhere. Less stuff with more components please.
- Incredibly unintuitive gameplay and control scheme. Game has lengthy "tutorial" segment that doesn't actually bother explaining basic keybinds and functionality to the player.
- Dialogue options were really a meme.
- SPECIAL merged with Perks and skills are entirely gone. Just less opportunity for roleplay and it shows.
- Physics/loadtimes tied to framerate. Aside from annoying dialogue desync, it stopped me from completing precisely one quest in the entire game where I had to jump into the back of a truck.

In a lot of ways this game was carried by the Fallout brand and pure inertia of the series. I get the impression that a lot of Starfield's issues are that its Fallout 4 without bringing the dumptruck of nostalgia and charm the Fallout brand carries.

Anyhow, I have some waning desire to give Far Harbor and Nukaworld a shot, but more feeling burned out on FO4 and looking for a fresh experience at this point. Considering the game completed for all intents and purposes.
Fair review, IMHO. I played it through 3 times (each faction) and started using Nexus Mods on the second play thru. Changed the game allot. Better crafting - grand forts - almost always went out with souped-up power armor (3rd run), etc. And improved textures. Incredibly moddable game. I even tried a hot sexy chick mod for a day - probably would have been awesome if I was 14.
 
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Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,238
5,244
136
- Physics/loadtimes tied to framerate. Aside from annoying dialogue desync, it stopped me from completing precisely one quest in the entire game where I had to jump into the back of a truck.

Mostly agree with review, but that one stands out.

It seems like a pretty massive day 1 bug, that was never fixed. You can find complaints about dating back the game release.

I found the load times intolerable at vanilla. How did it get by QA. How could they not fix this when the public started to complain?

I used a Mod that boosted FPS to 350 FPS, just on load screens, to make loads much more tolerable. It left the game at 60 FPS otherwise so everything else works as intended. Though even at 350 FPS the loads are still slower than FONV.

It's just such gross incompetence, that I'm still stunned that they never fixed this.

Anyhow, I have some waning desire to give Far Harbor and Nukaworld a shot

IMO Far Harbor is pretty good, Nukaworld is pretty terrible.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
6,949
7,363
136
Ok, put a dozen or so hours into Far Harbor. I like it, definitely moodier and and more "north east" than The Commonwealth on account of the fog and general Maine feel.

The map is less densly populated with locations so even though it's smaller it actually feels bigger thanks to a better sense of "empty space" between locations (and low visibility). It's weird how much it benefits from just having less of everything.

The combat is, of course, a cake walk thanks to being level 60 at this point, but it does let me focus on some of the more QOL perks and such.

The characters and environments like Far Harbor and the Synth Settlement are unique and well crafted. I like how there is some opportunity for the expansion to tie back into the primary faction (BOS seems interested in the happenings on Far Harbor, but I think I'm going to leave them out of the proceedings).

All in all I hope to get it knocked out this weekend and then I can put FO4 to rest for a while until.
 
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CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,517
592
126
Bring along Nick when you talk to Dima, there is a bunch of extra dialogue and story revelations.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
6,949
7,363
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Bring along Nick when you talk to Dima, there is a bunch of extra dialogue and story revelations.

- I used Nick to create a supply line a couple dozen hours ago and now I have no idea where the hell he is...

So its me and Longfellow.

Started doing some of the Children of Atom quests. While they're not my cup of tea as a faction, their cup o' style runneth over...
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
5,517
592
126
There is a mod that makes them return to the castle after a few days if you leave them somewhere.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
6,949
7,363
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Ok, wrapped up Far Harbor.

DiMA was executed by the citizens of Far Harbor but Acadia itself was spared. I gave the Children of the Atom what they wanted and detonated their nuke. Good riddance. Kasumi went back home to her parents.

Overall, an absolutely fantastic expansion. Great locale, good characters, fun/likable factions, solid main quest.

Why can't we get a mainline Fallout entry like this instead of this god awful *find family member X* while stumbling into another landmark every 50 feet so you never actually feel like you're in a desolate wasteland crap from 3/4?

Started Nukaworld and I already don't like the stupid maze into but I'll give it a few hours and see if it finds room to breathe...
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
28,664
21,174
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stumbling into another landmark every 50 feet so you never actually feel like you're in a desolate wasteland crap from 3/4?
Because it's a post apocalyptic trope to show destroyed and/or nature is reclaiming, famous buildings and monuments. If you want a desolate wasteland I can't recommend Mad Max enough. I've played it through at least 4 times now.

I liked Far Harbor a lot. It does feel like a game of its own.
 
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GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
6,949
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Because it's a post apocalyptic trope to show destroyed and/or nature is reclaiming, famous buildings and monuments. If you want a desolate wasteland I can't recommend Mad Max enough. I've played it through at least 4 times now.

I liked Far Harbor a lot. It does feel like a game of its own.

-I can't do two open world games, let alone post apocalyptic games, back to back. But I do have Mad Max sitting in my library so I'll take this to heart and keep it top of mind next time I need some open world goodness.
 
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GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
6,949
7,363
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Ok, got deeper into Nukaworld and while I am really liking the concept and the locale, there doesn't really seem to be a lot of room for roleplay or to, you know, not be an insane slaving piece of crap, so another big tonal shift.

Might come back with another deliberately evil character at some point to see Nukaworld through but right now it seems following the main quest means being a huge asshole.

I was hoping for a "Kill the captains, consolidate, power, point the raiders away from the Commonwealth" thread but it doesn't look like that's an option outside of just starting a huge fight and wiping out the raiders off-script.

So now I'll give the Mechanist a shot and then wrap things up.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
6,949
7,363
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Beat the Mechanist. Really enjoy the robot customization, can really put together a helluva killbot (dual minigun ADA was a beast), Mechanist was kinda a fun villain, get a bit of a choice at the end.

The Mechanist's actual lair kinda sucked, just a big grey factory thing, but got some nice armor out of it at the end, which was nice.

Short and sweet DLC.

Gonna noodle around, maybe do Vault 88 (am a couple quests in already) while waiting for the gaming muse to speak to me.
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,238
5,244
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Finished now. It took me longer because I wanted to try the Minutemen resolution by going back to an older save, and that kind of turned into a fiasco. "Old Guns" didn't trigger, so I got myself Banished from the institute hoping "Form Ranks" would trigger (which it did) but it turns out that won't finish without completing Old Guns (so back to an older save)... Eventually got there.

I enjoyed the BoS resolution much better, and I have no interest in RR or Institute options.

I did all the DLC too. Far Harbor was the best, Nuka-World the worse. Mechanist was buggy. Couldn't enter the lair without crashing until I applied a clean up mod.

I much prefer definitive endings you get in FO3/NV with slide show of your impacts, over just meandering endlessly until you get tired of it. Again, it feels more like a grindy MMO minus other people, which is just weird.

Worth the $14 I spent on it, but overall, I feel kind of Meh about it.
 
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