Discussion Future ARM Cortex + Neoverse µArchs Discussion

Tigerick · Apr 7, 2024

FlameTail said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1776759718893256998

Cortex X5, the new IPC king?

Hoho, now that I have the numbers (PPC), I think I can interpret what he said:

Qualcomm's custom core is basically the same as Apple A14 in terms of IPC, which is slightly better than Cortex-X4: Yes, my number aligns with what he said, see the table above with A14's IPC
Cortex-X5's IPC will surpass Apple, according to the leaked score of 1930 GB5 and 2700 GB6 @ 3.35GHz: Yes, D9400's IPC/PPC is 5% higher than A17 Pro.
If X5 manages power well, Nuvia can only explode to surpass: With lowest clock speed, I am not too worried about thermal power. And Phoenix core is really behind Cortex-X5 in ST, even you OC, it is still the same IPC, Qualcomm has to hope for Pegasus core to increase IPC...

FlameTail · Apr 7, 2024

X4 is power guzzler

Tigerick · Apr 7, 2024

FlameTail said:
View attachment 96541
X4 is power guzzler

Same clock, one in N4P and another on N3E

hemedans · Apr 7, 2024

Tigerick said:
X-Elite @ 4GHz scores about 2700 in GB6 1T, supposedly the same core used in upcoming 8G4.

If D9400 can achieve 2700 @ 3.35 GHz, I would say pretty impressive IPC in Cortex-X5, don't you think?

Isn't 2700 score for windows? Linux/Android will be 3000+ at 4.0ghz.

poke01 · Apr 8, 2024

hemedans said:
Isn't 2700 score for windows? Linux/Android will be 3000+ at 4.0ghz.

Essentially A18 Pro and Snapdragon 8 Gen 4 should have the same single core performance if they are clocked the same

FlameTail · Apr 8, 2024

poke01 said:
Essentially A18 Pro and Snapdragon 8 Gen 4 should have the same single core performance if they are clocked the same

What

0_o

Tigerick · Apr 8, 2024

Tigerick said:
Yeah, 2800 makes more sense, and if the core is the same as X-Elite, we should be expecting 4GHz with 700 PPC. God, I can't believe Phoenix core is showing its ages before launching...

I have compiled all upcoming flagship SoC for mobile phone. And I think I know why A18 Pro scoring 3500 might be true due to low amount of CPU core counts. That's why Apple able to clock A18 Pro higher than 8G4 even though they are all made by N3E process. Let's hope SF manage to launch Exynos 2500, if not all flagship SoC are going to be made by TSMC...

Node CPU Config Total CPU Cores CPU Max CPU Speed GB6 1T PPC GB6 MT
A18 Pro N3E 2 + 4 6 ? Highest 3500 ? ?
8 Gen 4 N3E 2 + 6 8 Phoenix Second High 2800 ? ~700 ?
D9400 N3E 1 + 3 + 4 8 Cortex-X5 3.35 GHz 2700 806
Exynos 2500-A SF3 1 + 3 + 4 8 Cortex-X5 3.2 GHz ? ? ?
Exynos 2500-B Laptop 1 + 5 + 4 10

X leaker mentioned there are going to have two versions of Exynos 2500: One with 10-core as leaked and another with 8-core (most likely 2 P cores being disabled). 8 core version will be used in upcoming Galaxy S25 series which make sense.

OTOH, 10 cores version will be much interesting cause I suspect this is the version Samsung prepared to launch as WoA laptop. As I mentioned in my LPDDR6 thread, all flagship phone SoC could support WoA with 64-bit LPDDR6. Samsung will most likely bump the TDP slightly higher to support higher clock speed...

People should wonder why Mediatek insist of 4+4 design even with Cortex-X5. With such high IPC, if Mediatek opt for 2+4/2+6, D9400's 1T performance will leave 8G4 behind..

Shivansps · Apr 8, 2024

Drivers, samsung is using rdna gpus witch i guess AMD can easily provide WOA drivers for, but everyone else dosent have that luxury.

Tigerick · Apr 8, 2024

Shivansps said:
Drivers, samsung is using rdna gpus witch i guess AMD can easily provide WOA drivers for, but everyone else dosent have that luxury.

1. Qualcomm: Qualcomm already has X-Elite SoC for ARM

2. Samsung Exynos: With AMD GPU's help, I am sure Samsung wil enter WoA market ASAP

3. NV: I already created a thread dedicated for NV SoC here.

4. AMD: Sound wave could be the one.

5. Mediatek: Here is the report that Mediatek planning to enter PC market.

It seems almost all vendors are planning to enter PC market with ARM SoC......except Intel and that is another point

NTMBK · Apr 8, 2024

Tigerick said:
1. Qualcomm: Qualcomm already has X-Elite SoC for ARM

2. Samsung Exynos: With AMD's GPU's help, I am sure Samsung wil enter WoA market ASAP

3. NV: I already created a thread dedicated for NV SoC here.

4. AMD: Sound wave could be the one.

5. Mediatek: Here is the report that Mediatek planning to enter PC market.

It seems almost all vendors are planning to enter PC market with ARM SoC......expect Intel and that is another point

AMD almost certainly structured their license with Samsung to restrict it to mobile markets. PC SoCs are a huge market for AMD, they aren't dumb enough to create a direct rival to themselves.

Tigerick · Apr 9, 2024

NTMBK said:
AMD almost certainly structured their license with Samsung to restrict it to mobile markets. PC SoCs are a huge market for AMD, they aren't dumb enough to create a direct rival to themselves.

Samsung's Exynos SoC of course is meant to be used in their own Galaxy Book series. AMD will leverage their SoC like the rest of x86 SoC. It is win-win solution for both parties in case you are not smart enough to see it.

FlameTail · Apr 9, 2024

Tigerick said:
Samsung's Exynos SoC of course is meant to be used on their own Galaxy Book series. AMD will leverage their SoC like the rest of x86 SoC. It is win-win solution for both parties in case you are not smart enough to see it.

Samsung LSI has experience with implementing ARM cores. So they have something AMD doesn't. Perhaps they could help out AMD with the CPU part of the SoC, like how Samsung LSI helped out Google with their Tensor SoCs.

Shivansps · Apr 9, 2024

Tigerick said:
1. Qualcomm: Qualcomm already has X-Elite SoC for ARM

2. Samsung Exynos: With AMD GPU's help, I am sure Samsung wil enter WoA market ASAP

3. NV: I already created a thread dedicated for NV SoC here.

4. AMD: Sound wave could be the one.

5. Mediatek: Here is the report that Mediatek planning to enter PC market.

It seems almost all vendors are planning to enter PC market with ARM SoC......except Intel and that is another point

Qualcomm was been doing WOA for a while so yes.
Samsung as people pointed out, AMD might have not licensed the RDNA IP for use in WOA, so they will need to use Mali and good luck getting ARM to make a driver for it.
NV could, its a matter of if they want to stop being extremly greedy, at least temporarily.
AMD, the same, they will want to? for AMD it only makes sense at the very low end (Mendocino).
Mediatek, again, Mali gpu, gl with that.

FlameTail · Apr 9, 2024

Shivansps said:
Qualcomm was been doing WOA for a while so yes.
Samsung as people pointed out, AMD might have not licensed the RDNA IP for use in WOA, so they will need to use Mali and good luck getting ARM to make a driver for it.
NV could, its a matter of if they want to stop being extremly greedy, at least temporarily.
AMD, the same, they will want to? for AMD it only makes sense at the very low end (Mendocino).
Mediatek, again, Mali gpu, gl with that.

I have heard a sentiment that ARM will release Mali/Immortalis drivers for WoA, after Qualcomm's WoA exclusivity agreement expires.

FlameTail · Apr 9, 2024

Google’s new Arm-based CPU will challenge Microsoft and Amazon in the AI race

Google’s chips also compete with Intel and Nvidia.

www.theverge.com

Google is making its own custom Arm-based CPU to support its AI work in data centers. Google’s new Arm-based CPU, dubbed Axion, will be used to support Google’s AI workloads before it rolls out to business customers of Google Cloud “later this year.”

SarahKerrigan · Apr 9, 2024

FlameTail said:
Google’s new Arm-based CPU will challenge Microsoft and Amazon in the AI race

Google’s chips also compete with Intel and Nvidia.

www.theverge.com

Google is making its own custom Arm-based CPU to support its AI work in data centers. Google’s new Arm-based CPU, dubbed Axion, will be used to support Google’s AI workloads before it rolls out to business customers of Google Cloud “later this year.”

Looks like another cookie-cutter V2 design.

Saylick · Apr 9, 2024

SarahKerrigan said:
Looks like another cookie-cutter V2 design.

Ya, not too many details are given but I agree: looks like a cookie cutter V2 design.

Introducing Google’s new Arm-based CPU | Google Cloud Blog

The custom Axion Arm-based processor is designed for general-purpose workloads like web and app servers, databases, analytics, CPU-based AI, and more.

cloud.google.com

Shivansps · Apr 9, 2024

FlameTail said:
I have heard a sentiment that ARM will release Mali/Immortalis drivers for WoA, after Qualcomm's WoA exclusivity agreement expires.

Considering ARM paid Mesa devs to make the new linux driver for Valhall, im not sure if ARM has any driver devs anymore at this point.
I heard about Mediatek trying to do it on their own, but thats wishfull thinking. A WOA gpu driver that can support gaming would need constant development and its not something that Mediatek should be doing, or anyone else other than ARM themselves.
In fact Qualcomm gpu drivers added vulkan support like two months ago, it is still very green and they have been on WOA for years.

Nvidia or AMD are the only ones that could provide a good WOA gpu, and i would only trust in AMD in making a decent PCIE implementation. Not to mention AMD and Nvidia have well known video encoders/decoders.

Shivansps · Apr 9, 2024

P£GA$U$ said:
I hope Cortex X5 fixes the power efficiency problem of Cortex X4.

X4 brought a big performance increase over X3, but an even bigger power consumption increase.

Is that even possible? ARM was power efficient because that was its focus. But the second you start focusing on performance and +3ghz chips it looks to me the power efficiency goes out the window.

FlameTail · Apr 9, 2024

Shivansps said:
Considering ARM paid Mesa devs to make the new linux driver for Valhall, im not sure if ARM has any driver devs anymore

Why does this sound funny...

Shivansps said:
In fact Qualcomm gpu drivers added vulkan support like two months ago, it is still very green and they have been on WOA for years.

Yes this is a very interesting situation. They mentioned that X Elite has Vulkan support at GCC 2024, held last month, where they talked about gaming on Snapdragon X Elite. Yet if you went back and looked at X Elite product brief released last October, it only mentions DX12 supports, and no other APIs.

Shivansps said:
Nvidia or AMD are the only ones that could provide a good WOA gpu, and i would only trust in AMD in making a decent PCIE implementation. Not to mention AMD and Nvidia have well known video encoders/decoders.

PCIe implementation? Are you talking about dGPUs?

poke01 · Apr 9, 2024

If ARM has reached A17 levels of IPC, then Google, Microsoft and Amazon has more of a reason to stick to ARM based servers.

Google has annouced their own ARM cloud based CPU today. More losses to Intel.

SpudLobby · Apr 9, 2024

FlameTail said:
I have heard a sentiment that ARM will release Mali/Immortalis drivers for WoA, after Qualcomm's WoA exclusivity agreement expires.

“release”

No one even knows if the exclusivity is real for one but for two I think if the agreement if it even exists is over releasing a product, not development IMO.

MediaTek - Jobs at MediaTek

“Develop power and thermal management software and firmware for Windows on ARM system
• Benchmark and profile power and thermal information for Windows on ARM platforms
• Analyze power and thermal related issues for Windows on ARM system”

Or “1. Windows Camera Framework Development and Integration
2. Windows Camera Tuning Flow Development”

checkout MediaTek’s hiring btw

FlameTail · Apr 9, 2024

Ok so it's confirmed then.

Mediatek is looking to jump into the WoA game.

igor_kavinski · Apr 9, 2024

Yay! Now I can enjoy the same hitching on a laptop that I already enjoy with my Mediatek powered Alcatel 1x 2019 phone!

soresu · Apr 9, 2024

FlameTail said:
PCIe implementation? Are you talking about dGPUs?

I would assume that he means the PCIe interface for M.2 SSDs or other add in cards.

While you probably could add a full dGPU with the right board implementation, why would you want to?

Kinda kiboshes the whole point of a more compact system - and I wouldn't expect to see any ARM boards from major consumer vendors that support x16 PCIe slots.

	Node	CPU Config	Total CPU Cores	CPU	Max CPU Speed	GB6 1T	PPC
A18 Pro	N3E	2 + 4	6	?	Highest	3500 ?	?

8 Gen 4	N3E	2 + 6	8	Phoenix	Second High	2800 ?	~700 ?

D9400	N3E	1 + 3 + 4	8	Cortex-X5	3.35 GHz	2700	806

Exynos 2500-A	SF3	1 + 3 + 4	8	Cortex-X5	3.2 GHz ?	?	?
Exynos 2500-B Laptop		1 + 5 + 4	10

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