8GB VRAM not enough (and 10 / 12)

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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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8GB
Horizon Forbidden West 3060 is faster than the 2080 Super despite the former usually competing with the 2070. Also 3060 has a better 1% low than 4060 and 4060Ti 8GB.
Resident Evil Village 3060TI/3070 tanks at 4K and is slower than the 3060/6700XT when ray tracing:
Company Of Heroes 3060 has a higher minimum than the 3070TI:

10GB / 12GB

Reasons why still shipping 8GB since 2014 isn't NV's fault.
  1. It's the player's fault.
  2. It's the reviewer's fault.
  3. It's the developer's fault.
  4. It's AMD's fault.
  5. It's the game's fault.
  6. It's the driver's fault.
  7. It's a system configuration issue.
  8. Wrong settings were tested.
  9. Wrong area was tested.
  10. Wrong games were tested.
  11. 4K is irrelevant.
  12. Texture quality is irrelevant as long as it matches a console's.
  13. Detail levels are irrelevant as long as they match a console's.
  14. There's no reason a game should use more than 8GB, because a random forum user said so.
  15. It's completely acceptable for the more expensive 3070/3070TI/3080 to turn down settings while the cheaper 3060/6700XT has no issue.
  16. It's an anomaly.
  17. It's a console port.
  18. It's a conspiracy against NV.
  19. 8GB cards aren't meant for 4K / 1440p / 1080p / 720p gaming.
  20. It's completely acceptable to disable ray tracing on NV while AMD has no issue.
  21. Polls, hardware market share, and game title count are evidence 8GB is enough, but are totally ignored when they don't suit the ray tracing agenda.
According to some people here, 8GB is neeeevaaaaah NV's fault and objective evidence "doesn't count" because of reasons(tm). If you have others please let me know and I'll add them to the list. Cheers!
 
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psolord

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Sep 16, 2009
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Hitman928 said:
If there is an issue with a game with VRAM or other performance issues, you can pretty much guarantee that GameGPU will be the least likely outlet to show the problem. Case in point, their Plague Tale results. Looking at it, you'd say 8 GB cards have no issues.



Let's check what another reviewer found:



Completely different story. There are, of course, other problems like bad LOD and reduced texture IQ in some games with 8 GB cards which you would never know about if only looking at GameGPU. In other words, you can't rely on GameGPU to give you a good idea of actual game performance or IQ.
Click to expand...
Hitman928 said:
Yes, I see an updated test from GameGPU with RT after the patch. Conclusion is the same though:

View attachment 96907
Click to expand...

I have done an extensive testing on A Plague Tale Requiem and I have also played the game from start to finish.

Here are my tests if anyone's interested. From the 7950 to the 4070ti. These are all 12-15 minute runs.


Some pointers.
-The GTX 1070, the RX 6600 and the RTX 3060ti, all 8GB cards, managed completely different workloads. VRAM was non an issue. GPU power was.
-The GTX 1070 was tested at 1080p Ultra and managed about half what the 3060ti could.
-The RTX 3060ti at 1080p Utra, maxed at 5GBs. Will there be heavier vram locations in the game? Sure. Does it matter? No. The card was already maxed out.
- The RX6600 was tested at 1080p medium/fsr with increased textures at high. Vram maxed at 4GBs. Is it ugly even at medium? No. Will there be location with more vram usage than 4GBs even at these settings? Sure. Does it matter. No. The card is also maxed out.


Also, here are some screenshots, on the 4070ti, 4k/ultra/dlss balanced, which is my go to preference.

imgbox - fast, simple image host

Use imgbox to upload, host and share all your images. It's simple, free and blazing fast!
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There are MSI Afterburner/RTSS OSD on many of those. No RT was used. Why? Because it's too heavy and made the game unplayable. Yes on the 4070ti. Which is correctly shown in the above gamegpu graphs with RT.

The conclusion as you say, is FAR from being the same. I don't know how you reached that. I mean the 16GB 6950XT is right there on par with the 3070. Both are unplayable.

The game is heavy on the vram, but is absolutely gpu limited first and foremost and that without RT. With RT it is just unplayable for most cards.
 
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I

igor_kavinski

Lifer
Jul 27, 2020
20,419
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psolord said:
So far I am not impressed.
Click to expand...
And there doesn't seem to be much hope that you will ever be, unless you chuck out all your 8GB cards in some spring cleaning (10 years from now?).

Everyone's been trying to make you understand that 4060 Ti 8GB is bad value and you keep repeating that it is fine with the "correct" settings.

Sigh.
 
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psolord

Platinum Member
Sep 16, 2009
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MrTeal said:
Got FF7 Remake working on my 8GB GPU. Had to turn down textures, but the game still looks dope. Excited to start playing.

View attachment 96927
Click to expand...
Very funny. All the jokesters have gathered in this thread I see...

Luck would have it, that SQUARE-ENIX just published their Final Fantasy XIV Dawntrail benchmark

FINAL FANTASY XIV: Dawntrail Official Benchmark

The official site for the FINAL FANTASY XIV: Dawntrail benchmark.
na.finalfantasyxiv.com

Dawntrail will be released in July. It may be an older engine, but still, the GTX 970 with its 3.5GBs, did run it quite nicely at high. Is it ugly? No. Do you see, blurred textures, missing assets or anything? No. Imagine the 8GB cards (which I will test ofc)!

 
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psolord

Platinum Member
Sep 16, 2009
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igor_kavinski said:
And there doesn't seem to be much hope that you will ever be, unless you chuck out all your 8GB cards in some spring cleaning (10 years from now?).

Everyone's been trying to make you understand that 4060 Ti 8GB is bad value and you keep repeating that it is fine with the "correct" settings.

Sigh.
Click to expand...
It's not the value of the 4060ti per se, that I care about, rather the wrong idea of the video ram as a graphics card asset and how people perceive it, that I am fighting against. I do care about my own 8GB cards and they are fine, while also largely different from each other at the same time. Same 8GBs, different expectations.

Would I like the 4060ti 8GB to be cheaper? Sure. I'd like everything to be cheaper really.
 
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psolord

Platinum Member
Sep 16, 2009
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igor_kavinski said:
I learned something new. So thank you?
Click to expand...
Original source was Videocardz, so thank them.

Final Fantasy XIV Dawntrail benchmark is now available - VideoCardz.com

FINAL FANTASY XIV: Dawntrail benchmark now available to download for free Final Fantasy XIV came out in 2013 on PlayStation 3 and Windows platforms, but has seen several important updates along the way. The most recent update called Downtrail will come out this July, and it will bring the...
videocardz.com
 
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D

darkswordsman17

Lifer
Mar 11, 2004
23,320
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psolord said:
Very funny. All the jokesters have gathered in this thread I see...

Luck would have it, that SQUARE-ENIX just published their Final Fantasy XIV Dawntrail benchmark

FINAL FANTASY XIV: Dawntrail Official Benchmark

The official site for the FINAL FANTASY XIV: Dawntrail benchmark.
na.finalfantasyxiv.com

Dawntrail will be released in July. It may be an older engine, but still, the GTX 970 with its 3.5GBs, did run it quite nicely at high. Is it ugly? No. Do you see, blurred textures, missing assets or anything? No. Imagine the 8GB cards (which I will test ofc)!

Click to expand...

You say that like you haven't been joking this entire time... You've been joking this entire time, right? (insert the Padme/Anakin meme)
 
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Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
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psolord said:
Known for terrible benchmark scenes? No. Having some objections by users (myself included), calling for harder tests, in some games, yes. There is a reason for that however. When you have a delta from the 6600 to the 4090 to test, you must find a location that everyone can run. After all, that's why they have 1440p and 4k (and 8K in some cases) graphs too.

Case in point Outpost Infinity Siege. A reminder of what I wrote before.


This is what gamegpu found on a very light part of the game.

View attachment 96989

For clarification, my 4070ti above, at 4k/ultra/dlss balanced, runs at 60fps indoors but drops to the 40s outdoors, as is shown in the above run I did. This is not shown in the above graph, true, but the point I was trying to make, still stands, I mean look at the 3060 12GB. It is already at 30fps at 1080p, on a light section. Imagine what will happen outdoors. yeah vram aint gonna help you.
Click to expand...

So, as long as you don't care if the benchmark shows you how the components will actually perform in the games tested, GameGPU is fine. Got it. I think I'll stick with outlets who test in a way that is much more representative of actual game performance.
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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igor_kavinski said:
Ah come on! Don't bait him to create more vids! That game runs fine on 8GB.
Click to expand...

The original PlayStation didn't even have 8 MB of VRAM. Clearly you just need to use correct settings and your games can run fine!

If Bill Gates is to be believed 640K ought to be enough for anyone. He obviously didn't use correct settings though, because had he done so, even 8K would have been sufficient.

I'll make 17 posts and 32 charts showing that with correct settings (TM) the game will even run fine on an abacus.
 
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dr1337

Senior member
May 25, 2020
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Logically wouldn't somebody so dedicated to proving that game settings matter more than just a cards specs also be vigilant about calling out new GPUs as a bad deal?

psolord said:
It's not the value of the 4060ti per se, that I care about, rather the wrong idea of the video ram as a graphics card asset and how people perceive it
Click to expand...
But if you have to turn settings down on some cards because they hit a VRAM limit in some workloads, it literally is an asset.

Don't you think it would be better if new GPU buyers didn't have to pay $100 extra to not have to reduce settings?

Do you think it's a good idea that Nvidia pairs brand new high compute and performant chips with less ram than they sometimes need, specifically for creating an artificial market segment?
 
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psolord

Platinum Member
Sep 16, 2009
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igor_kavinski said:
How is that wrong? The VRAM COMES soldered with the dGPU.

Are you implying that cows should not be judged by the amount of milk they produce?
Click to expand...
I said, how people perceive it. As has been evident by this thread, there's a twisted perception out there, of what the balances truly are, in the grand scheme of things. People are focused on corner cases and specific models. I am seeing the grander picture and that's the gist of our debate here.

I have been saying 20 years back, that video cards, should have a dimm slot, so the user could add more ram if he wished, instead of having to buy a new card. Today this notion has lost its meaning. Why? Because game engines are progressing like crazy and the gpu power is more important, while we have also reached an amount of vram, that is crazy a lot while resolutions have reached a diminishing return threshold.
 
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psolord

Platinum Member
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dr1337 said:
Logically wouldn't somebody so dedicated to proving that game settings matter more than just a cards specs also be vigilant about calling out new GPUs as a bad deal?
Click to expand...
That is not the theme of this thread though. I have said time and again, that I would like ALL video cards, to be 20% cheaper.

dr1337 said:
But if you have to turn settings down on some cards because they hit a VRAM limit in some workloads, it literally is an asset.
Click to expand...
I said how people perceive it, not that it's not an asset.

These workloads that have been shown here, are often manufactured to drive the tested card to failure. The solutions are right there, where more often than not, the user wouldn't even know the difference. If you show me an example, that a setting will make a game butt ugly on a 8GB card, I will accept it. I mean I showed you what the texture settings do in TLOU. Going from high to ultra, brings a 1.5GB load on the vram, for nothing.

dr1337 said:
Don't you think it would be better if new GPU buyers didn't have to pay $100 extra to not have to reduce settings?
Click to expand...
Yes absolutely. Not the subject of this thread though.

I am studying how 8GBs are an inhibitor and as an owner of three 8GB cards, I can tell you that it's not. Now if people are hell bent to see how the 3070ti is doing at 1440p ultra+RT and complain that it was too expensive for what it can muster, I will not argue and I will not care really, because my point of view is different.

dr1337 said:
Do you think it's a good idea that Nvidia pairs brand new high compute and performant chips with less ram than they sometimes need, specifically for creating an artificial market segment?
Click to expand...
For nvidia it's a very good idea. I don't see many of these cards however. The only ones that are problematic, are the 3070 and the 3070ti, for their initial price range, which I did not buy. The 3060ti was a bomb, which I did buy for high caliber 1080p.

The 4060ti 8GB is great. Should be a bit cheaper. Yes it will still not max out all games, because that's its tier. The 4060ti 16GB almost completely useless. It will only serve to drive people away from better cards, like the 4070 and when people discover its deficit in gpu power, a deficit that wouldn't be there, if people had correct expecations, which they won't, because they think they bought a 4080 or something, due to the 16GBs. There will be like 5% of games that will show better performance on the 4060ti 16GB vs the 8GB and that's it. While on all of them, it will be destroyed by a better card with less vram, the 4070.

All 4070s are super fine. I mean I have a 4070ti. I played Avatar from start to finish. For personal reasons, I was forced to play a large chunk of the game on my 1080p panel. I used a straight ultra preset. Still had some framedrops. VRAM was WAY lower than its 12GBs.
 
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psolord

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Hitman928 said:
So, as long as you don't care if the benchmark shows you how the components will actually perform in the games tested, GameGPU is fine. Got it. I think I'll stick with outlets who test in a way that is much more representative of actual game performance.
Click to expand...
How exactly do you propose a game should be tested, on 30gpus paired with 30cpus, with all possible combinations, on three resolutions? hmm? That's 30*30*3 tests right there. That's 2700 tests they need to do for each game. Do you want 30 minute runs on all of them? Are you crazy?

I mean when I show you MY (non monetized )runs, at correct settings, there's something fishy, I am self promoting and generally no one cares. But no, you WILL pay attention on Deliver us Mars at 1440p maxed+RT. FML.
 
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Timorous

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psolord said:
I said, how people perceive it. As has been evident by this thread, there's a twisted perception out there, of what the balances truly are, in the grand scheme of things. People are focused on corner cases and specific models. I am seeing the grander picture and that's the gist of our debate here.
Click to expand...

Again you miss the mark.

The point is that ideally you want balanced hardware so that you are not paying for a bunch of compute that you cannot use due to VRAM limits and you are not paying for a wedge of VRAM you cannot use due to compute limits. The 4060Ti 8GB is heavily VRAM limited in plenty of titles today and that list will grow. The 4060Ti 16GB is compute limited with that amount of VRAM but compared to the 8GB version the compromise is far more balanced.

As a quick run down of the NV stack

4060 well balanced.

4060Ti 8GB - Heavy VRAM limitations.

4060Ti 16GB compute limited.

4070 well balanced.

4070S / 4070 Ti are going to show to be VRAM limited although for people who spend that much on a GPU they might very well upgrade again before it starts to show so it may be moot.

4070TiS / 4080 / 4080S / 4090 are well balanced.

If you are going to design an 8GB card then you might as well only design it to have at most 4060/7600 levels of compute performance because any more is wasted with such a small VRAM buffer. As such the price limit is going to be in the region of $250 at tops for Blackwell and RDNA 4.

If you have a die that has decent amount more compute than this you might as well pair it with more VRAM so it can be fully used otherwise you should have designed a smaller, cheaper die, paired that with 8GB and reduced the BOM.
 
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Aapje

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psolord said:
I have been saying 20 years back, that video cards, should have a dimm slot, so the user could add more ram if he wished, instead of having to buy a new card. Today this notion has lost its meaning. Why? Because game engines are progressing like crazy and the gpu power is more important, while we have also reached an amount of vram, that is crazy a lot while resolutions have reached a diminishing return threshold.
Click to expand...

No, it's because having slotted (V)RAM increased latency and decreases stability. GPU's tend to be more dependent on VRAM than CPUs are on RAM, so they made a different choice.

Although Apple actually puts the RAM in their chip package, rather than have slotted RAM.
 
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psolord

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Timorous said:
The 4060Ti 8GB is heavily VRAM limited in plenty of titles today and that list will grow. The 4060Ti 16GB is compute limited with that amount of VRAM but compared to the 8GB version the compromise is far more balanced.
Click to expand...
The 4060ti 8GB is vram limited and heavily at that too? Sorry I am not seeing it.

If people don't like gamegpu, you can see the latest games from Techpowerup.

Assassins Creed Mirage, Alan Wake 2, Horizon Forbidden West, Cyberpunk 2077, Lords of the Fallen, Avatar.

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www.techpowerup.com

Alan Wake 2 Performance Benchmark Review - 30 GPUs Tested

Alan Wake 2 is out soon, with incredible graphics, but demanding hardware requirements, too. There's forced DLSS/FSR, but we show you how to tweak the config files to get native back. In our performance review, we're taking a closer look at image quality, VRAM usage, and performance on a wide...
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Horizon Forbidden West Performance Benchmark Review - 30 GPUs Tested

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Lords of the Fallen Performance Benchmark Review - 30 GPUs Tested

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4060ti 8GB vs 16GB are equal on all actually *playable* resolutions/settings. I am not posting individual screenshots because the usual suspect will complain again if I post a "splurge" of screenshots as he says, when evidence is presented.

Alan Wake 2 RT both are unplayable. Don't try to twist it with this and that. They. Are. Unplayable.

Phantom Libery RT both are unplayable.

Lords of the Fallen, the only UE5 game, both are unplayable.

How is the 4060ti 8GB "heavily limited". The 4060ti 16GB will be a little better at some corner cases, sure, but when the need for gpu power comes a-calling, they are both dead in the water. Unless they use correct settings.

You wanna talk about that other engineering marvel, the 3060 12GB? Sure.
For 1080p,

Alan Wake 2 no RT unplayable, beaten by the 4060 (still unplayable), with the 3060ti being playable.

Horizon Forbidden West, still unplayable, beaten by the 4060 (playable) and the 3060ti (playable)

Phantom Libery, again unplayable <60fps, beaten by the 4060 (playable) and the 3060ti (playable)

Lords of the Fallen, one single UE5 and disaster struck. Everything below the 3070ti is unplayable. I am still talking about 1080p btw. But still, 36fps for the 3060 12GB vs 47fps for the 3060ti, is a considerable difference. I mean the 3060ti will have to apply a lesser degree of "correct settings" to bring the game to a playable state, right?

Avatar, same thing. 36fps for the 3060 12GB. 59fps for both 8GB and 16GB for the 4060ti models.

Please explain to me, how vram is more important than gpu power? Sorry I am not seeing it. The 4060tis are mostly on part, the 3060 12GB has gone tits up and they are all destroyed of course, by the same vram sized 4070.
 
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igor_kavinski

Lifer
Jul 27, 2020
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psolord said:
The 4060ti 16GB will be a little better at some corner cases, sure
Click to expand...
Let's assume that 5000 series is launched and 4000 series cards are being sold at a heavy discount to clear inventory. What would you advise a friend in those cases when 4060 Ti 16GB of some cheaper brands like Zotac is selling for the same price as an ASUS TUF 4060 Ti 8GB? Would you still tell your friend to go for ASUS because VRAM does not matter, assuming he is unwilling to spend even dollar more for the next tier of performance? You would have no qualms about getting your friend to go with the lower VRAM card? You won't feel any guilt?
 
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Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
6,328
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psolord said:
How exactly do you propose a game should be tested, on 30gpus paired with 30cpus, with all possible combinations, on three resolutions? hmm? That's 30*30*3 tests right there. That's 2700 tests they need to do for each game. Do you want 30 minute runs on all of them? Are you crazy?

I mean when I show you MY (non monetized )runs, at correct settings, there's something fishy, I am self promoting and generally no one cares. But no, you WILL pay attention on Deliver us Mars at 1440p maxed+RT. FML.
Click to expand...

Quality over quantity. Just because I can gather a bunch of data, doesn't mean that data is useful. GameGPUs business model is basically rush to publish because being first gets lots of views. It's similar to the 24 hour news networks who are constantly airing "breaking news" as stories happen. Problem is, by rushing out stories, you don't have time for actual investigation or proper vetting of data and you get things wrong, a lot. The model works to make money because you grab attention, but it's terrible for actual journalism. GameGPU has even been accused of not actually having measured data behind all of their results but that they use algorithms to calculate values based upon the measurements they do take. No idea if it's true, but I've seen it thrown out by other reviewers.

As a consumer, I'd much rather wait for proper tests that are much less likely to be junk data and more likely to be representative of the actual game play experience. That means probably having to wait a bit to get better data published and maybe hunting a little bit for specific model tests, but getting quality data is vastly preferred to quick data that's unreliable.
 
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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
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You...you...mean I have to take photos overseas to find Elephants? Are you crazy??? I'd rather just photograph my backyard 37 times and then ejaculate the photos as "evidence" that Elephants don't exist.

Please explain to me how a competent investigation is more important than just checking my backyard???
 
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