Israel: We Are At War

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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,711
514
126
there was an accidental double post.
but I'll place here some commentary by Matthew Hoh
a former military member who ran on th green party ticket for a state legislature seat. on Russia and Ukraine situation
imo it's reasonably astute and finds flaws in Russia's decisions and other actors decisions in a pretty fair manner.
it starts about 54 minutes into the video. maybe I'll add in some quotes. from the segment as time permits.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,318
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Remember it took near 2 years for Russia to start purposefully attacking Ukraine's power infrastructure as part of the strategy of the war.
Yes Russia invaded but acting like the history of Russia's invasion began in early 2022 ignores certain previous events just like pretending the history of the past few month's of the mass murders of civilians in Gaza ignores the years events prior to that situation.

Russia has been targeting Ukrainian civilian infrastructure from the early stages of the war. Look, another Putin apologist. Who is ignoring events of the years prior? Maybe you are, but Russia has been a horrific oppressive government both domestically and internationally for as long as it has existed.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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Russia, China, Israel, North Korea, what do all these countries have in common?

A-hole dictators who want to stay in power and appear strong, despite the pathetic wimps they actually are.
 
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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,711
514
126
Russia has been targeting Ukrainian civilian infrastructure from the early stages of the war. Look, another Putin apologist. Who is ignoring events of the years prior? Maybe you are, but Russia has been a horrific oppressive government both domestically and internationally for as long as it has existed.
Really?
I stated in a previous post that I thought Putin has at least once ordered the murder/assassination of a political enemy
but some just want to silo their opinions well have fun with that.
BTW who was shelling these Ukraine civilians in this CNN International video... sure as hell wasn't Putin.
but hey guess it only matters if you like the people who are the victims

_____
*edited to add*
Yes I was wrong Russia did strike Ukraine power used by civilians prior to March 2024.
It seems that according to this Time article the intensity of the attacks has been step up considerably.
however, I will stand by my previous statements as supported by my CNN video link above. Ukraine was not a bastion of peace and tranquility before Russia invaded and much can be made of a certain Mr. Johnsons sabotage of peace/ceasefire talks that might have ended Russia's invasion before the death's reached hundreds of thousands.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,344
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I believe it is more escalatory for Iran to keep crossing such a distance, compared to Israel cleaning them up after they cross.

To that end, I would not be surprised if the distance to Iran plays a pivotal role in staying Israel's hand in retaliation. Due to political and logistical limitations, their security may be best served staying focused on Iranian proxies closer to home.
Sorry, this is basically Russia's excuse for attacking Ukraine. "Well why was NATO talking to them." Iran can be friends/allies with whoever they want.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,388
6,387
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I believe it is more escalatory for Iran to keep crossing such a distance, compared to Israel cleaning them up after they cross.

To that end, I would not be surprised if the distance to Iran plays a pivotal role in staying Israel's hand in retaliation. Due to political and logistical limitations, their security may be best served staying focused on Iranian proxies closer to home.
The problem I see is that the Israelis hate the Palestinians as much as Nazi Germans hated the Jews and we know today how that turned out for Germany. There is nothing, in my opinion, that Israelis are doing to Palestinians that serves the real Israeli self interest. Victim mentality based on race or religion or anything else is how victims who at first earn sympathy wind up being hated. Everything is always someone's else's fault and every critique is called prejudice
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
97,157
16,304
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Iran, you just need to jump in and be Evil.

What possible good will this achieve?


I hope they blow your only oil port into nothingness, and destroy your shipping docks on the Caspian sea.
Do you expect them to let Israel bomb their embassy and not respond? This is Iran doing pro-forma, the missile attack was announced hours in advace just so Israel and USA can intercept most of it.
 
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This is Iran doing pro-forma, the attack was announced hours in advace just so Israel and USA can intercept most of it.
And now Israel knows that at least one of their adversaries won't take the punch lying flat on the ground. There's gonna be a cost involved, in the hundreds of millions or even billions. It was always stupid of them to go full scale ballistic on Gaza. A smaller operation to search every home with a curfew would have been just as effective, with zero extra-judicial killings involved. But Netanyahu probably didn't learn that from his "How to lead a country for dummies" book.
 
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Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
12,354
9,230
136
Because one side is being more genocidal than the other. And so far, they are carrying out their plan with quite the impunity.

I know that term is being thrown around a lot, but lets be clear. If that was really Israel's objective, they are fully capable of accomplishing it in a much quicker time frame than ~6 months.

And there was absolutely nothing that brought on this response involving brutal attacks directed almost entirely at civilian communities.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,320
30,957
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I know that term is being thrown around a lot, but lets be clear. If that was really Israel's objective, they are fully capable of accomplishing it in a much quicker time frame than ~6 months.

And there was absolutely nothing that brought on this response involving brutal attacks directed almost entirely at civilian communities.
It doesn't matter if Hamas attacked civilians. After 9/11 the US wasn't given carte blanche to indiscriminately target civilians in response. If Ukraine started targeting Russian civilians they would rapidly lose international support even though Russia has committed heinous war crimes.

Israel needs to be brought to heel, immediately, or cut loose to fend for themselves if they refuse.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,207
30,161
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Very interesting to see Iran getting called evil because they attacked the country committing genocide and war crimes.

I'd say Iran is standing up to evil.
Right, this is why Iran is arming Russia in their genocide campaign against Ukraine and, further, Europe, correct?
 

linkgoron

Platinum Member
Mar 9, 2005
2,415
984
136
Do you expect them to let Israel bomb their embassy and not respond? This is Iran doing pro-forma, the missile attack was announced hours in advace just so Israel and USA can intercept most of it.
I have to agree with this assessment. Israel miscalculated with their embassy attack, and Iran wanted a show of force that they will attack Israel directly if Israel attacks directly as well. 9 missiles (according to NYT) hitting Israel out of 150 missiles and ~200 drones, and a strong technological showing, is an OK result for both IMO.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
12,354
9,230
136
It doesn't matter if Hamas attacked civilians. After 9/11 the US wasn't given carte blanche to indiscriminately target civilians in response. If Ukraine started targeting Russian civilians they would rapidly lose international support even though Russia has committed heinous war crimes.

Israel needs to be brought to heel, immediately, or cut loose to fend for themselves if they refuse.

I think there's a fairly obvious difference between Gaza and the two scenarios you listed. In those, enemy targets weren't largely intermingled among civilian population. If Al-Qaeda was entirely in Kandahar instead of caves, you absolutely would have seen similar aftermath in our response. The bloodlust was so evident we invaded a completely different country as a result.

For the record, I agree they need to stop though. Bibi needs to go. The settlements need to stop.
 
Mar 11, 2004
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I know that term is being thrown around a lot, but lets be clear. If that was really Israel's objective, they are fully capable of accomplishing it in a much quicker time frame than ~6 months.

And there was absolutely nothing that brought on this response involving brutal attacks directed almost entirely at civilian communities.

Let's be clear, that is Israel's objective. They know how bad it makes them look which is why they set out to do it slowly over time so as to hide what they're doing (have done) instead of quickly and also is why they've spent decades on propaganda campaigns to provide cover for their actions. This way they get to dupe people like you and wash their hands clean of the bloodshed.

You mean aside from Israel murdering Palestinian civilians for decades prior? Again (since you've posted this same trash argument multiple times now), if your argument is targeting civilians justifies Israel's actions then you cannot also claim it doesn't justify Hamas' actions. Israel was murdering Palestinian civilians before Hamas even existed (and Israel intentionally helped Hamas form - even funded them early on; deliberately to turn them into the boogeyman so they could justify exactly what we've seen since - the deliberate genocide of Palestinian people).

For people that are actually interesting in learning something about the what/why/who/how of how Israel got here (its a 2 parter):
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
12,354
9,230
136
Let's be clear, that is Israel's objective. They know how bad it makes them look which is why they set out to do it slowly over time so as to hide what they're doing (have done) instead of quickly and also is why they've spent decades on propaganda campaigns to provide cover for their actions. This way they get to dupe people like you and wash their hands clean of the bloodshed.

You mean aside from Israel murdering Palestinian civilians for decades prior? Again (since you've posted this same trash argument multiple times now), if your argument is targeting civilians justifies Israel's actions then you cannot also claim it doesn't justify Hamas' actions. Israel was murdering Palestinian civilians before Hamas even existed (and Israel intentionally helped Hamas form - even funded them early on; deliberately to turn them into the boogeyman so they could justify exactly what we've seen since - the deliberate genocide of Palestinian people).

For people that are actually interesting in learning something about the what/why/who/how of how Israel got here (its a 2 parter):

While you're at it, any other things I've never said that you'd like to argue against?
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,320
5,756
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I think there's a fairly obvious difference between Gaza and the two scenarios you listed. In those, enemy targets weren't largely intermingled among civilian population. If Al-Qaeda was entirely in Kandahar instead of caves, you absolutely would have seen similar aftermath in our response. The bloodlust was so evident we invaded a completely different country as a result.

For the record, I agree they need to stop though. Bibi needs to go. The settlements need to stop.

That you can see how the US used 9/11 to justify attacking Iraq but can't see Israel is doing the exact same thing, murdering tens of thousands of Palestinians justifying it due to Oct 7th is, quite a bizarre blind spot to see someone exhibit. But apparently the many many many civilian killings the US did in Afghanistan were justified because well they shouldn't live in a country where terrorists are? Al Queda was pretty embedded in the civilians and the US also carried out a lot of attacks knowing it was going to end with the deaths of civilians (including at times, ones they knew were not even sypmathetic to the Taliban/Al Queda). Its not like the US was going to be in a tank battle against the Taliban.

Just astounding that you're choosing to ignore the counter-insurgency that defined the US military actions in both Afghanistan and Iraq too. It takes a special level of pretend stupidity to claim Afghanistan and Iraq didn't have the US military's enemy intermingled among the civilian population. How do you feel about Vietnam? Or how about when the US carpetbombed Japan and dropped nuclear bombs on civilian cities? Or Dresden and the other times the US/Allies specifically targeted civilian populations.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
12,354
9,230
136
That you can see how the US used 9/11 to justify attacking Iraq but can't see Israel is doing the exact same thing, murdering tens of thousands of Palestinians justifying it due to Oct 7th is, quite a bizarre blind spot to see someone exhibit. But apparently the many many many civilian killings the US did in Afghanistan were justified because well they shouldn't live in a country where terrorists are? Al Queda was pretty embedded in the civilians and the US also carried out a lot of attacks knowing it was going to end with the deaths of civilians (including at times, ones they knew were not even sypmathetic to the Taliban/Al Queda). Its not like the US was going to be in a tank battle against the Taliban.

Just astounding that you're choosing to ignore the counter-insurgency that defined the US military actions in both Afghanistan and Iraq too. It takes a special level of pretend stupidity to claim Afghanistan and Iraq didn't have the US military's enemy intermingled among the civilian population. How do you feel about Vietnam? Or how about when the US carpetbombed Japan and dropped nuclear bombs on civilian cities? Or Dresden and the other times the US/Allies specifically targeted civilian populations.

While you're at it, any other things I've never said that you'd like to argue against?
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,116
2,396
136
No one involved in this is. However, this thread is more than a wee bit one-sided in directing it's blame.

While you're at it, any other things I've never said that you'd like to argue against?

Its the implied wording used that says more than enough and your history in this thread where ppl just know what you mean to say. Going to your main assertion of one-sided blame direction, this the problem when gaslit folks think everything started on Oct 7. One-sidedness had nothing to do with Israel responding to Hammas attacks but the SCALE of how it was carried out leaves no doubt that it went beyond acceptable international norms of which even the US was careful to adhere to in Iraq.

If you dont think genocide is involved, obviously you paid no attention to the proceedings of the ICJ and the numerous legal scholars defining it as such and the war crimes involved. Even the UKs ruling party lawyers advised their PM to stop arming Israel for fear of being complicit in war crimes which the UK may have to pay reparations.

Have feeling even if Israel used nukes to wipe out Tehran and a million ppl dead there would still be gaslit shmucks defending the Zio-state and to not judge it harshly for fear of being "too one-sided".
 
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Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
12,354
9,230
136
Its the implied wording used that says more than enough and your history in this thread where ppl just know what you mean to say. Going to your main assertion of one-sided blame direction, this the problem when gaslit folks think everything started on Oct 7. One-sidedness had nothing to do with Israel responding to Hammas attacks but the SCALE of how it was carried out leaves no doubt that it went beyond acceptable international norms of which even the US was careful to adhere to in Iraq.

If you dont think genocide is involved, obviously you paid no attention to the proceedings of the ICJ and the numerous legal scholars defining it as such and the war crimes involved. Even the UKs ruling party lawyers advised their PM to stop arming Israel for fear of being complicit in war crimes which the UK may have to pay reparations.

Have feeling even if Israel used nukes to wipe out Tehran and a million ppl dead there would still be gaslit shmucks defending the Zio-state and to not judge it harshly for fear of being "too one-sided".

My "history" in this thread consists of discussion about the alleged hospital bombing way back in the beginning and like 2-3 small points since then. And those responses were that both sides are at fault in varying degrees for numerous reasons. But that gets shouted down and straw-manned into oblivion over and over again.

My fault for even engaging in the first place. Rage on.
 

Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,795
5,549
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And what possible good did Israel achieve by blowing up Iran's Embassy, which actually killed people? I'm not a fan of Iran, but this take is irresponsible. Israel is in a posture to drag the US into a regional war with Iran. If Israel attacks Iran directly, what do you think happens next? And I'm hearing some of our elected leaders waving pom poms in support. Have we all lost our collective minds?

The US and other Western allies have been irresponsible in their support of Israel. Israel should have been pushed a long time ago into a 2 state solution and also into shutting down their settlement expansions. Young Adults in the US may soon be fighting and dying for what? To perpetuate an immoral stance by a country that treats some people as 2nd class citizens, if even that, led by a man who is trying to stay out of jail.
October 7th, 2023. An Iranian proxy known as Hamas that was supplied armed, trained, and paid, by Iran implemented a long standing Iranian policy. Death to Israel. Nobody disputes Hamas is an Iranian proxy force.

On that day over a 1000 were killed, and in the continuing violence over 30,000 have been killed.

And you feel Iran holds no responsibility in all this?

Syria and Iran are strategic allies! They have massive interests in regional affairs and both need each other to ensure they are not undermined by their adversaries in the region. They have seen the US go to war on Iraq (on Israels prodding) and want to keep Syria (one of their few remaining allies) propped up and not fall out of their sphere of influence. Syria and Iran are under greater threat from Israel and the US than the other way around! Attack them and they will attack back, like any other nation on the planet (with the means to do so) would.

Israel was in flagrant violation of the UN charter and international law when it attcked Irans consolate. Its basically an ACT OF WAR for any other soverign nation! You can not have one set of laws and rules for some while not applying to others. This will ultimately lead to a break down of international order.

And understand that rational thinkers in the US are pretty fucking upset at Israels actions. US interests have been SEVERELY underminded by Israel over so many deacdes and even more so now! The US is not siding with Israel because its an "ally", they are siding with it because of tremendous political pressures from Zionist lobby groups that are basically calling the shots on US foreign policy. If not for that Israel would be a pariah state!
October 7th, 2023. An Iranian proxy known as Hamas that was supplied armed, trained, and paid, by Iran implemented a long standing Iranian policy. Death to Israel. Nobody disputes Hamas is an Iranian proxy force.

On that day over a 1000 were killed, and in the continuing violence over 30,000 have been killed.

And you feel Iran holds no responsibility in all this?


As for Syria:
It has managed to kill off 617,910 of its own people at the moment, with 6.7 million fleeing the country. These figures do not include disappearances or extrajudicial executions. To be a strategic allie with Syria is hardly any argument of good intentions.


Who remembers when Israel attacked and destroyed Iraqs Osirak nuclear reactor in 1981?
Who remembers the UN Security Council resolution passed in response to that attack?
Who remembers that that resolution was UNANIMOUSLY adopted including by the US, UK, France in CONDEMNING Israel for that attack?

The Reagan admin back then had the balls and moral scruples that over-rode any Zio-lobbying attempts on the matter.

Exerpts from UNSC resolution 487:

... Considering that, under the terms of Article 2, paragraph 4, of the Charter of the United Nations: "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations",

1. Strongly condemns the military attack by Israel in clear violation of the Charter of the United Nations and the norms of international conduct;

2. Calls upon Israel to refrain in the future from any such acts or threats thereof;

3. Further considers that the said attack constitutes a serious threat to the entire IAEA safeguards regime which is the foundation of the non-proliferation Treaty;

4. Fully recognises the inalienable sovereign right of Iraq, and all other States, especially the developing countries, to establish programmes of technological and nuclear development to develop their economy and industry for peaceful purposes in accordance with their present and future needs and consistent with the internationally accepted objectives of preventing nuclear-weapons proliferation;

5. Calls upon Israel urgently to place its nuclear facilities under IAEA safeguards;

6. Considers that Iraq is entitled to appropriate redress for the destruction it has suffered, responsibility for which has been acknowledged by Israel;

7. Requests the Secretary-General to keep the Security Council regularly informed of the implementation of this resolution.
---------------------

The Lobby has learned from that and has become ever more entrenched in the corruption of the US political system and has spread even beyond that to the UK and other euro nations to where it would be much harder for UNSC reolutions like this to occur again.
Who remembers October 7th, 2023?

Iran has spent decades launching terrorist attacks on civilians, Israeli and others. Killing, murdering, men, women, and children without hesitation.

Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Kataib Hezbollah, Asaib Ahl al Haq, Harakat Hezbollah al Nujaba, Kataib Sayyad al Shuhada, Badr Organization, Ansar Allah ( Houthis ), Zaynabiyoun Brigade***, Fatemiyoun Division**, Saraya al Ashtar, Saraya al Mukhtar, Hezbollah al Hejaz*

*directly linked to murdering Americans in Saudi Arabia

**this Iranian proxy floats between Syrian and Afghanistan, kidnapping Afgan children to fight in the Syrian/Afgan civil wars. Think of a big convoy that dips into Afganistan to replinish by becoming the apocoplypse, and then goes to Syria to fight, and then repeats.

***This brigade is forced conscripted out of the Pakistan Shiite refugee communities in Iran that predate the 1979 revolution. They either fight, or their families get it. Mainly fight as shock troops for Assad.

(I could go on, but you get the point)




At this point Iran has spit in the eye of UN law and the Geneva convention so many times perhaps the Geneva convention should be used as a checklist.
 
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