Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[Hulk]

SOT but considering all of this AI coming to CPU's I keep having this nagging feeling that AI might be more server based rather than client.
Am I way off base here in thinking this?

 

[jpiniero]

SOT but considering all of this AI coming to CPU's I keep having this nagging feeling that AI might be more server based rather than client.
Am I way off base here in thinking this?

It's mostly marketing to Wall Street.

 

[LightningZ71]

It's like ray tracing in GPUs... There is actual AI capability there, but it's highly limited in what it can accomplish locally in a timely fashion. You can run huge models on it, but it'll take forever. You can do smaller local tasks and they will be performant. However, the difference is that, with a subscription and remote service, you can access the capabilities of a bigger AI cluster located in a DC elsewhere.

 

[Gideon]

Anything new people care to extract from this image?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1795763449425010756

 

[Kepler_L2]

Anything new people care to extract from this image?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1795763449425010756

Looks similar to previous schizo diagram by @AMDK11

 

[poke01]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1796118604133421387

I don’t know what to make of this

 

[CouncilorIrissa]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1796118604133421387

I don’t know what to make of this

Sounds exciting, if true.
I wonder how these changes will affect the area, though. Doubling the ALU count and increasing decode width by 50% can't be cheap area-wise?

 

[Philste]

Sounds exciting, if true.
I wonder how these changes will affect the area, though. Doubling the ALU count and increasing decode width by 50% can't be cheap area-wise?

The official graphics of Lunar Lake (given they show the real scale) already show that 4 Skymont are definitely bigger than 1 Lion Cove, so the 1/4 the size of a P-Core definitely isn't true anymore.

 

[eek2121]

Sounds exciting, if true.
I wonder how these changes will affect the area, though. Doubling the ALU count and increasing decode width by 50% can't be cheap area-wise?

Intel is using a more efficient process which will help, but yes, the cores are bigger. They will also be much faster.

 

[csbin]

Sounds exciting, if true.
I wonder how these changes will affect the area, though. Doubling the ALU count and increasing decode width by 50% can't be cheap area-wise?

true

https://twitter.com/x/status/1796139006675103896

 

[poke01]

let’s see lion cove at computex.

 

[Kepler_L2]

Sounds exciting, if true.
I wonder how these changes will affect the area, though. Doubling the ALU count and increasing decode width by 50% can't be cheap area-wise?

Skymont is same area as Gracemont despite 2 node shrinks. So a lot more transistors.

 

[AMDK11]

Looks similar to previous schizo diagram by @AMDK11 View attachment 99896

I won't be surprised if LionCove has more than an 8-way decoder and more than 6 ALUs. E.g. 6x ALU and 4x FP/ALU.

I emphasize that this is just my guess and nothing more.

 

[CouncilorIrissa]

Skymont is same area as Gracemont despite 2 node shrinks. So a lot more transistors.

Sounds fun. Will be even more fun if it outperforms (or equals) Golden Cope in INT.

 

[adroc_thurston]

That way there is an option with 12 P cores on one tile/die and the best world class gaming CPU

The thing has no chances against anything Zen5.

 

[dullard]

Or if not, the e-cores and thread director better be perfect to run any games last 15-20 years with no issues at all with hybrid arch even games weirdly designed and no need to design with it in mind cause thread director is perfect for 0 issues with hybrid arch no more than a 12 P core non hybrid would run any better.

You are basically arguing that the thread director is perfect with hyperthreading, you know where some threads are run at full speed and other threads at 10% to 30% of that speed. But, you are also arguing that the thread director is horrible with hybrid cores where some threads run at full speed and other threads run at 30% to 50% speed.

Now replace "thread director" with "game designer" in the paragraph above.

Really think about that and let it sink in.

 

[maddie]

You are basically arguing that the thread director is perfect with hyperthreading, you know where some threads are run at full speed and other threads at 10% to 30% of that speed. But, you are also arguing that the thread director is horrible with hybrid cores where some threads run at full speed and other threads run at 30% to 50% speed.

Now replace "thread director" with "game designer" in the paragraph above.

Really think about that and let it sink in.

Hyperthreading does not have full speed and (10% to 30% of that speed). It allows a 10% to 30% performance increase when using 2 threads, but the threads can just as easily be running at 65% & 65%.

 

[Wolverine2349]

You are basically arguing that the thread director is perfect with hyperthreading, you know where some threads are run at full speed and other threads at 10% to 30% of that speed. But, you are also arguing that the thread director is horrible with hybrid cores where some threads run at full speed and other threads run at 30% to 50% speed.

Now replace "thread director" with "game designer" in the paragraph above.

Really think about that and let it sink in.

No probably better without hyper threading. Just saying that it needs to be perfect or would be nice for a 12 P core variant. 12 P cores no HT would be great as well and best for games of all types past 10-15 years.

Problem is there are so many games already made and have and not patched up, so game designers cannot fix it. And even some of todays game designers do not code right for hybrid arch. But not much you can do to change that as some of those devs are out of business or purchased by others now. What can be done is multiple CPU options so all gaming scenarios easily covered which a 12 P core variant even with no HT on Lion Cove cores Arrow Lake CPU would do.

One thing that has been so great the last 20 years is the SMP compatibility of the Windows NT ecosystem on X86. Games of all types starting with native Windows 2000/XP based to present worked seamlessly as we went form single core HT to duals quads and beyond with massive IPC and clock speed increases and PCIe bus and storage advances and such. Have had that for over 20 years running with excelletn literally perfect compatibility due to CPUs. Would be nice to have CPUs choices with more cores that have that excellence of compatibility for best performance for todays and tomorrows games with just another 12 P core CPU die for sale as a choice.

Prior to Windows 2000 and XP it was a totally different era where OS architectures changed so much but in all far under 20 years. When excellent compatibility without big changes maintained for over 20 years with natives Windows NT (especially since Windows 7 then its more like 15 years) its almost taken for granted to keep up and stay like that. The hybrid arch has made that harder to much of an extent kind of like going form DOS based Windows to NT which was more than 20 years ago.

 

[Saylick]

A little more info is trickling out…

 

[Kepler_L2]

View attachment 100005
A little more info is trickling out…

Enhance!

 

[Mopetar]

Lenovo even has a section on "AI Gaming PCs"

If developers start taking advantage of the hardware it would be amazing. Most games have terrible AI and make the game harder by letting the AI cheat or just giving them bigger health bars and more damage.

I'd love to see AI that can compete with a human player without those advantages, but is also adaptable so that the game remains interesting or even helps the player improve by giving them a better opponent as they become more skilled at playing against the AI.

That's far more interesting to me than 99% of what they're trying to sell the AI as right now.

 

[Saylick]

Enhance!

I try.

 

[CouncilorIrissa]

If developers start taking advantage of the hardware it would be amazing. Most games have terrible AI and make the game harder by letting the AI cheat or just giving them bigger health bars and more damage.

I'd love to see AI that can compete with a human player without those advantages, but is also adaptable so that the game remains interesting or even helps the player improve by giving them a better opponent as they become more skilled at playing against the AI.

That's far more interesting to me than 99% of what they're trying to sell the AI as right now.

I don't think NPUs will be of any help with that.

 

[jpiniero]

I don't think NPUs will be of any help with that.

Yeah. AI has become such a buzzword that it's lost all meaning.

 

[Henry swagger]

I try.
View attachment 100006

Hope we get a full reveal at computex