Israel: We Are At War

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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
25,873
24,213
136
With guys like this brokering peace deals you wonder why shit never gets fixed


Turns out the Obama administration was his the fifth administration he worked at, and his last. Obama's first term was his last, not sure why.

Anyway, in NYC, locals supporting the vendor, first time I've seen a halal cart with a six top next to it.

 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
31,646
49,693
136

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,739
10,271
146
Excerpt from FP article:

"In the lead-up to Hamas’s rocket fire, Israel had been actively working to expel families in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood from their homes to make room for Jewish settlers. This initiated widespread mobilization of Palestinians across the land of historic Palestine. The Israeli state responded with force and mass arrests against protests that were peaceful and included prayers around Al-Aqsa Mosque. Israel’s efforts to disrupt the protests and push forward with its colonization of East Jerusalem triggered Hamas to respond with rocket fire."

^^^ The miseries inflicted on the people of Gaza have long been known to me, and yet, I have somehow let them be. For this, I have some soul searching to do.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,739
10,271
146
Excellent article from The Intercept on the actual genesis and subsequent history of the tunnels under Al-Shifa.

Scroll down to "Al-Shifa's tunnels were built by Israel" for the meat of it. And yes, I know, this fact has been posted here before.

I have slowly, too slowly, come around to the fact that Israel's response to Hama's brutal attack has been, no matter their legitimate security concerns, an undeniably disproportionate and amoral escalation of their years long oppression of the people of Gaza.

If it needs to be said, I robustly support the right of the State of Israel to exist, no matter the tortured history of how it came to be.

Violent, racist religious fundamentalists on both sides are wagging the dog here. Ordinary civilians on both sides are the victims of this. I struggle to foresee a truly workable solution.

"Miracles" happen -- I always thought the white South Africans would go down in a bloody last stand, and I never thought Imperial Russia's hold on Eastern Europe would be relinquished in my lifetime -- but violence begets violence, and here in the Mideast, violent reactions from both sides are now deeply ingrained.

 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
31,646
49,693
136
Last time people tried the non violent way they where met with IDF snipers who had a grand old time, even bragging about shooting 42 knees in a day


 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
38,109
30,907
136
As part of the hostage exchange Israel agreed to release teenagers for offenses on the level of throwing rocks at soldiers or carrying Hamas flags.

Prison seems a bit harsh for the high level crime of flag carrying.
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,739
10,271
146
Further indications the IDF and government ignored clear warnings.

Honestly, how derelict Israeli intelligence was is up for discussion. What I do know, is that when you sit in that seat, with multiple inflows of info, trying to separate the wheat from the chaff, is not exactly simple.

Hindsight is 20/20, but predicting what an adversary will do in real time, based on multiple, often flawed and often contradictory info flows, is no easy task, to put it mildly.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
51,200
43,361
136
Honestly, how derelict Israeli intelligence was is up for discussion. What I do know, is that when you sit in that seat, with multiple inflows of info, trying to separate the wheat from the chaff, is not exactly simple.

Hindsight is 20/20, but predicting what an adversary will do in real time, based on multiple, often flawed and often contradictory info flows, is no easy task, to put it mildly.

I think if they ignored multiple streams of intel indicating a possible attack and took no, even precautionary, preparations this is a fairly major fail. Not on 1973 level but certainly clear echoes of rather similar mistakes.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,684
5,225
136
Honestly, how derelict Israeli intelligence was is up for discussion. What I do know, is that when you sit in that seat, with multiple inflows of info, trying to separate the wheat from the chaff, is not exactly simple.

Hindsight is 20/20, but predicting what an adversary will do in real time, based on multiple, often flawed and often contradictory info flows, is no easy task, to put it mildly.
Frankly, given this specific situation (Hamas, Palestinians and Israel), it certainly isn’t nearly as difficult a situation as you may think. Certainly not at the level of gaining humint on the inner workings of the Duma or the CCP/NCP (Chinese communist party.

Israel being utterly blind to the then pending Hamas attack is something difficult to swallow.

I wasn’t in the ASA (Army Security Agency—-falls under NSA) for very long, but my experience there and subsequent experiences working for the 4star commanding general of the AMC (Army Material Command), you’d be very much surprised how well Israeli intelligence performs.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,187
4,871
136
Hamas should be smoked for taking Americans hostage. No Americans have been released yet. Time for JSOC to bring the pain to gaza and get our people back.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,111
136
Honestly, how derelict Israeli intelligence was is up for discussion. What I do know, is that when you sit in that seat, with multiple inflows of info, trying to separate the wheat from the chaff, is not exactly simple.

Hindsight is 20/20, but predicting what an adversary will do in real time, based on multiple, often flawed and often contradictory info flows, is no easy task, to put it mildly.
Absolutely agree. We missed warnings on 12/7/1941. Some intel info didn't go up the chain for some reason. We missed warnings on 9/11/2001. Our intel agencies didn't talk to each other. The different pieces of intel were siloed so we couldn't put it together. And, of course, there are many more examples. As with us, sometimes the information pipeline just breaks down - either due to human error or faulty systems. That said, some folks in the Shin Bet are going to be taken to the woodshed.
 
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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,111
136
Hamas should be smoked for taking Americans hostage. No Americans have been released yet. Time for JSOC to bring the pain to gaza and get our people back.
We have at least one Seal team in place - who knows what else we have in place from JSOC. If needed for extraction - these guys know how to protect ours while coming down hard on anyone who tries to stop the (hammer vs nail and all that). It'll all about the available intel; and the Israelis' and Americans' doing their best not to harm the hostages. So, don't worry, our best are on it.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
31,646
49,693
136
Thank you, KMFJD, for continuing here to drive home the point of Israeli subjugation of the Palestinian populace until I could not look away.
The joy of the re-united families is something to see, pure happiness if only for a short time. Hamas has released 12 foreign workers that where abducted as well, they where not part of the deal but where released anyways. As much as we all hate twitter, it's ability to show and humanize Palestinians has been a god send for them and the tides of sympathy are turning for a lot of people, seeing them as humans who are no different than the rest of us.


 
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