Israel: We Are At War

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Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
9,278
12,458
146
The US has never been subject to accountability for mass murder and human rights abuses. The current era of impunity started in WWII with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The U.S. leaders obviously think we're (still) immune to accountability. Threatening the ICC? WTF
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,550
48,992
136
The US has never been subject to accountability for mass murder and human rights abuses. The current era of impunity started in WWII with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
What international laws/treaties do you think those bombings violated?
The U.S. leaders obviously think we're (still) immune to accountability. Threatening the ICC? WTF
Well they are correct that US leaders are immune to accountability. First, the US is not party to the Rome Statute but in a more practical sense no international law is binding in any meaningful way against the US because no one has the power to enforce it.

I'm not saying this is a great situation but it's also been the situation for the entirety of human history. Laws only matter if you have the power to enforce them.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,550
48,992
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Hague Conventions? How does it NOT violate those?

It almost entirely targeted/killed civilians. There were no military bases or installations in either city.
There was no agreement that the Hague conventions even covered aerial bombardment. In fact, there was an attempt to revise the conventions to cover exactly this sort of thing and all the major powers rejected it. In addition not only had aerial bombardment of civilian areas happened before WW2 without the Hague Conventions being invoked, literally every single beligerrant in WW2 bombed civilian targets with gusto.

So basically if the US was acting with 'impunity' there then every country involved in WW2 acted with similar impunity as even Axis leaders were not charged with the aerial bombing of civilian areas despite doing it frequently.
 

Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
9,278
12,458
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Touche, and agreed about all countries involved in WWII doing similar. Though, I didn't claim the US was the only one bombing civilians. I guess it stands out in my mind because of the number killed in the two bombings relative to other bombing campaigns throughout the war (including London and Tokyo).

I'm not too surprised that aerial bombardment wasn't included when the conventions were written...there were warplanes in WWI but I'm not sure it was common. The Hague conventions were written pre-WWI and never revised to include it.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,550
48,992
136
Touche, and agreed about all countries involved in WWII doing similar. Though, I didn't claim the US was the only one bombing civilians. I guess it stands out in my mind because of the number killed in the two bombings relative to other bombing campaigns throughout the war (including London and Tokyo).

I'm not too surprised that aerial bombardment wasn't included when the conventions were written...there were warplanes in WWI but I'm not sure it was common. The Hague conventions were written pre-WWI and never revised to include it.
To be honest even if they had covered aerial bombardment I'm pretty confident everyone in WW2 would have done it anyway because basically all the rules were thrown out in that war. This is the problem with international law as opposed to domestic law. Within a country the government has a monopoly on force so it can enforce its laws pretty effectively. Internationally that doesn't work so the only real international law is what you can get away with.

It's shitty, but unfortunately I think it's true.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,680
20,052
136
It's pretty clear that what Israel is doing are horrific war crimes and trying to finish their apartheid state and ethnic cleanse the Palestinians right out of Israel. Many legal scholars world-wide view what they are doing as 100% war crimes, and whether Israel is a signatory to something or not, they are still doing those horrific things.

When someone like @fskimospy tries to water down those facts, one should ask him to simply lay out his positions on these atrocities from his own value system. Good luck with that.
 
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amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,001
2,255
136
One of Israels strongest allies since Oct 7 finally seem sickened by the guy.

Germany ‘would arrest Netanyahu if ICC issues a warrant’​


Germany would arrest Binyamin Netanyahu if the International Criminal Court issued an arrest warrant for him, a spokesman for Olaf Scholz, the chancellor, said on Wednesday.

The comments raise the prospect of German police incarcerating a leader of the Jewish state, a scenario which had previously been difficult to conceive...


 
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amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,001
2,255
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The lack of any method of enforcement makes this a hollow statement.
Whether its enforceable or not, it still has some bite on other levels. Israels leaders branded as war criminals and unable to travel to many countries where arrest warrants can be issued. They have gone ape-shit over this realizing how detrimental it is to their PR and countries image.
 
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Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
9,278
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Probably not the best optics to have GERMANY be the one to come out and say they'll arrest Bibi. Just saying ...

I can see your point to some degree, depending on POV.

WWII/Holocaust wasn't 10 or 20 years ago (which would make it *really* awkward, obviously). It's been 80 years; most of that time has seen an agreeable and cooperative relationship between the 2 countries.

If Germany is the first to make the statement, does that not make it that much more obvious that the warrant is justified? Or is that just my own imagination?
 
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Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
11,744
8,275
136
I can see your point to some degree, depending on POV.

WWII/Holocaust wasn't 10 or 20 years ago (which would make it *really* awkward, obviously). It's been 80 years; most of that time has seen an agreeable and cooperative relationship between the 2 countries.

If Germany is the first to make the statement, does that not make it that much more obvious that the warrant is justified? Or is that just my own imagination?

I dunno, when you're still hearing references to the holocaust regarding current events it's probably best for them to just not be releasing related statements.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
5,796
2,049
136
The lack of any method of enforcement makes this a hollow statement.

The only way these war crime accusations will have any bite is if the US acknowledges it and withholds weapons of destruction to Israel if they don't cut it out.

In some ways, it's basically telling the kid with the temper trantrum to cut the crap, go to his room, and reflect on his actions. The fact that this is being done shows that many nations around the world are tired of the "OMG you dare to defy me, that means you're an antisemitic" rhetoric that Israel has been pushing. That's a good thing.

Again, I fully commiserate with Jews about what happened during the holocaust, but that was a lifetime ago. I commiserate with the innocent victims of the Hamas attacks. But that gives Israel no right to perpetuate oppression.
 
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manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,291
2,326
136
I can see your point to some degree, depending on POV.

WWII/Holocaust wasn't 10 or 20 years ago (which would make it *really* awkward, obviously). It's been 80 years; most of that time has seen an agreeable and cooperative relationship between the 2 countries.

If Germany is the first to make the statement, does that not make it that much more obvious that the warrant is justified? Or is that just my own imagination?
IIRC Germany is a faithful supporter of Israel. So there's nothing wrong with them speaking in favor of international law/ICC, and I don't see a problem with optics here. If one of your best friends tells you that you need an intervention, it actually means more.

Israel has pretty much maneuvered itself onto an island, but they appear confident that the U.S. will continue to ferry in aid no matter what (metaphorically). Our only leverage is indeed military aid, but it is highly unlikely that we're close to a major shift in our Israeli policy. The Biden administration claims that a full-on invasion of Rafah is a hard red line, but I'm not sure if that's truly believable (at worst, we'd stall on offensive weapons and ordnance).
 

Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
9,278
12,458
146
IIRC Germany is a faithful supporter of Israel. So there's nothing wrong with them speaking in favor of international law/ICC, and I don't see a problem with optics here. If one of your best friends tells you that you need an intervention, it actually means more.
That was exactly my point.
 
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