Israel: We Are At War

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Dave_5k

Golden Member
May 23, 2017
1,635
3,163
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So far, both Russia and Israel have gotten away with massive undeniable and deliberate civilian casualties - both without suffering from any additional international repercussions beyond those already in place.
 
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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
15,959
8,065
136
So far, both Russia and Israel have gotten away with massive undeniable and deliberate civilian casualties - both without suffering from any additional international repercussions beyond those already in place.
Well, IIRC, Russia has been officially accused of war crimes in the world court. The only thing that can be done about Israel is for the US to hang up the phone and their funding and see if that does anything (+no more vetoes at the UN Sec Council and an outright condemnation by Biden).
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
15,959
8,065
136
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,763
8,269
136
So far, both Russia and Israel have gotten away with massive undeniable and deliberate civilian casualties - both without suffering from any additional international repercussions beyond those already in place.
The difference is that Russia made unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. Hamas perpetrated practically the worst terrorist attack in modern times (the heinousness of which is still coming to light) Oct. 7 on Israel to initiate this crisis.
 

Racan

Golden Member
Sep 22, 2012
1,124
2,018
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Most moral army in the middle east
Correction. The most moral army in the WORLD!

France Foreign Ministry: French diplomatic official dies of injuries following Israeli strike in Gaza
A French diplomatic official died of injuries he sustained during an alleged Israeli strike in the Gaza Strip, according to a statement from the French Foreign Ministry.

The ministry said that the official had taken refuge in the home of a colleague from the French consulate in the southern Gazan city of Rafah, near the border with Egypt, with two other colleagues and family members.

On Wednesday, the house was reportedly hit by an Israeli strike, injuring the official and killing around ten people, the statement continued.

"France condemns the bombing of a residential building, which caused the death of many other civilians," the ministry said. "We demand that the Israeli authorities shed full light on the circumstances of this bombing, as soon as possible."
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,948
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That would be a sad state of affairs if the only reason why the world sat up and paid attention to the plight of Palestinians would be if some French (likely white) guy got killed.

I bet that Israel will accuse France of siding with terrorists or something very similar.

The difference is that Russia made unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. Hamas perpetrated practically the worst terrorist attack in modern times (the heinousness of which is still coming to light) Oct. 7 on Israel to initiate this crisis.

"Unprovoked", are you serious? Are you another visitor to this topic that pretends that shit only started there on Oct 7th?
 
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Xcobra

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2004
3,635
382
126
The difference is that Russia made unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. Hamas perpetrated practically the worst terrorist attack in modern times (the heinousness of which is still coming to light) Oct. 7 on Israel to initiate this crisis.
You almost got it right. Try again.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,763
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"Unprovoked", are you serious? Are you another visitor to this topic that pretends that shit only started there on Oct 7th?
Oh, are you pretending masked Hamas legions didn't murder or rape and murder or kidnap everyone they could in Israel on Oct. 7, not by virtue of recent provocation but by long time elaborate plan (over a year) funded by Iran? Hamas' stated goal is the elimination/extermination of Israel, Israelis, Jews. What universe are you living in?
 
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KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,577
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Well...Unprovoked my ass

By August 2023 Israel had killed over 200 Palestinians which was the most since 2022(?!)


Here's a whole thread on why it's escalated





And if you really want a good read, try

 
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KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,577
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When they tried a mostly peaceful protest


Snipers where having contests to see who could shoot the most knees...the winner got 42

223 Palestinians where killed over 9,000 wounded


Haaretz article - https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...n-up-about-shooting-gaza-protesters-1.8632555


Oct 7th was totally unprovoked and came out of the blue? maybe if your deaf/blind or live with your head in the sand, very maga like
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,577
43,601
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I can go on and on and on.....

Oslo accords denied Palestinians rights to water




Trying to go from one city in the West Bank to another is also something else, multiple checkpoints, and routinely denied for the flimsiest of reasons

 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,431
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Looks like Israel is attempting to employ their own final solution to their Palestinian "problem."

The US needs to discontinue all aid immediately, this obviously just a massacre. Unless they actually kill every Palestinian, which might be their plan, it's just going to make Hamas stronger over the long term. It'll definitely increase terrorism against Israel and likely the US if we keep supporting it.
The real rich part will be the US waiting until all of Gaza is an empty field and Israel turns on the West Bank before saying 'we don't support this' and 'nobody could have predicted this would have happened'.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,431
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On that note, this would be a great time for folks to go back to the first few pages of this thread and re-read, with a little hindsight perspective for those of you who lacked imagination and foresight back then, what resounding applause and great fervor many had with the Israeli response to Hamas' actions.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
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Oh, are you pretending masked Hamas legions didn't murder or rape and murder or kidnap everyone they could in Israel on Oct. 7, not by virtue of recent provocation but by long time elaborate plan (over a year) funded by Iran? Hamas' stated goal is the elimination/extermination of Israel, Israelis, Jews. What universe are you living in?
The French resistance stated goal was the elimination of their occupiers as well. Israel treats Palestinians as less than and puts them in ghettos, random kills hundreds of civilians as retribution. I think it unreasonable to expect the Palestinians to never fight back. This war is just going to increase terrorism against Israel in the long term.

But how many innocent Palestinians should Israel murder for each innocent Israeli? 1 to 1, 10 to 1, 100 to 1?
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,948
10,081
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Oh, are you pretending masked Hamas legions didn't murder or rape and murder or kidnap everyone they could in Israel on Oct. 7, not by virtue of recent provocation but by long time elaborate plan (over a year) funded by Iran? Hamas' stated goal is the elimination/extermination of Israel, Israelis, Jews. What universe are you living in?

The one where Israel has been steadily and successfully eradicating Palestine, (kicking people out of their homes, denying them basic human rights), ever since they decided they were entitled to land that didn't belong to them. If that happened to you and yours, are you saying you wouldn't want to break shit up?

I'm not pretending anything and I don't excuse rape, but you still haven't acknowledged that this didn't start on Oct 7th.
 
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Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,027
2,595
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Oh, are you pretending masked Hamas legions didn't murder or rape and murder or kidnap everyone they could in Israel on Oct. 7, not by virtue of recent provocation but by long time elaborate plan (over a year) funded by Iran? Hamas' stated goal is the elimination/extermination of Israel, Israelis, Jews. What universe are you living in?
Hamas doesn't represent the people and hasn't for sometime. The election of Hamas was in 2006 and they were unpopular prior to recent events. Even in 2006 they won with a plurality largely against another group thought to be corrupt.

Furthermore hamas' existence is largely the creation of Israel. There are Israeli politicians currently in power in the netanyahu cabinet who a decade ago openly stated they cherished the existence and rise to power of Hamas as a scapegoat/tool to be manipulated to further israeli aims. When you look closely at Israeli actions over the last 20 years, since the death of rabin Israel has for the most part undermined attempts at peace.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,763
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But how many innocent Palestinians should Israel murder for each innocent Israeli? 1 to 1, 10 to 1, 100 to 1?
It is not about retribution, that's barbarism. It is about ridding the planet of Hamas.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,763
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The one where Israel has been steadily and successfully eradicating Palestine, (kicking people out of their homes, denying them basic human rights), ever since they decided they were entitled to land that didn't belong to them. If that happened to you and yours, are you saying you wouldn't want to break shit up?

I'm not pretending anything and I don't excuse rape, but you still haven't acknowledged that this didn't start on Oct 7th.
I'm fully aware it didn't start on Oct. 7th, and nowhere have I claimed otherwise. IIRC it was England's idea to create a homeland for the Jews there in the 20th century.

The Balfour Declaration (“Balfour's promise” in Arabic) was a public pledge by Britain in 1917 declaring its aim to establish “a national home for the Jewish people” in Palestine.Nov 2, 2018

Historically, both Islamism and Judaism has had claim to the area. This goes back millennia. The best and only real solution is the two state solution. And to succeed it muse be imbued with a strong sense of non-sectarianism.

What is the dispute between Israel and Palestine?

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is over who gets what land and how it's controlled. Though both Jews and Arab Muslims date their claims to the land back a couple thousand years, the current political conflict began in the early 20th century.Nov 9, 2023

On the front page of The New York Times at the moment:

Create a Confederation of Two States
By May Pundak and Dahlia Scheindlin Ms. Pundak is the Israeli executive director of A Land for All. Dr. Scheindlin is a board member of the group and the author of “The Crooked Timber of Democracy in Israel.”
ISRAELI AND PALESTINIAN LIVES, as well as our economies and needs for security and health care, are intertwined. Both nations have powerful emotional, religious and cultural attachments to their land, but neither side can own all of it. As a result, there must be two sovereign states, but they cannot be founded on Israeli-Palestinian or Jewish-Arab segregation or on hard partition. The arrangement must be grounded in the principle of individual and collective equality.

We envision a political framework of two states in a confederated association. The core concepts can be outlined as follows: two sovereign states, each with its own government but with joint mechanisms and institutions for critical shared concerns.

Palestinians and Jewish Israelis could live as permanent residents in the other state, in a mechanism phased in over time, if they accept the sovereignty of that state and respect its laws. They would enjoy equality and protections under the law, and neither side would establish the superiority of one group over another. Each person would vote only in the country of his or her citizenship.

We envision freedom of movement, like in the Schengen zone in the European Union, with security restrictions imposed individually instead of collectively and unequally, as they are today. Instead of being divided by walls, each side would be able to cross these borders for tourism, study or work. The demarcation should be close to the Green Line, instead of cutting deeply into the West Bank, which chops up Palestinian areas into enclaves.

Jerusalem would remain a shared, open city, the capital of the two nations. Its municipal government should guarantee representation for Israelis and Palestinians, providing new incentive for Palestinian participation in elections.

The two sides would establish a joint court of human rights to adjudicate claims of Jewish or Palestinian residents living in the other state. They would establish shared institutions to manage climate change issues and natural resources, as well as a common economic zone to reduce the large economic gap between Israelis and Palestinians.

To manage the states’ joint security, there is a precedent: For nearly 30 years, Israel and the Palestinian Authority have conducted security cooperation in the West Bank, which has largely worked, though it enabled Israel’s ongoing occupation and fed Palestinian resentment. But in a framework establishing Palestinian independence, coordinating security policy could serve the security needs of both sides and would support the new political arrangement.

It’s time to recognize that complete separation has failed, both as an aim of the peace process and wherever it has been carried out on the ground. The two sides have never agreed on a peace deal based on separation, because they don’t want one. It’s time to replace separation with partnership.

The road to realizing this vision would be a long one. Gaza would first need to be reintegrated with the West Bank to correct the failed policy of isolation, with international help. Palestinians would need a unified, representative, accountable government. Both sides would need to reject political extremists and commit to political rather than military solutions to the conflict. As far off as it might be, the day after the war’s end must be grounded in the real needs and interests of people to ensure that this war is the last war.

May Pundak is the Israeli executive director of A Land for All, a grass-roots Israeli-Palestinian movement. Dr. Scheindlin is a board member of the group and the author of “The Crooked Timber of Democracy in Israel.”
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,763
8,269
136
Hamas doesn't represent the people and hasn't for sometime. The election of Hamas was in 2006 and they were unpopular prior to recent events. Even in 2006 they won with a plurality largely against another group thought to be corrupt.

Furthermore hamas' existence is largely the creation of Israel. There are Israeli politicians currently in power in the netanyahu cabinet who a decade ago openly stated they cherished the existence and rise to power of Hamas as a scapegoat/tool to be manipulated to further israeli aims. When you look closely at Israeli actions over the last 20 years, since the death of rabin Israel has for the most part undermined attempts at peace.
I am and have been steadily in favor of relegating Netanyahu to history's trash heap.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,763
8,269
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By genociding the Palestinians?
Your words, not mine. Sheesh. At least Israel is not on record as favoring the genocide of Palestinians. Hamas on the other hand are on the record in favor of genocide of Israelis and the actions of Oct. 7 took the vows to another level. On the record the IDF is not after Palestinians but after Hamas who are all for genocide. I am not excusing killing innocent Palestinians, but that is not Israel's stated goal.
 
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