Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[CakeMonster]

AM5 will be supported for years to come, so at least there's the bright side of knowing if you buy an AM5 mobo from a well-respected brand you will likely be able to use it for a long time.

I hope so, but I'm not convinced the manufacturers will be listing all the relevant specs when we're shopping at release date.

 

[eek2121]

If some of these rumors/leaks are actually true - Raphael is going to be a monster. Sadly, at list initially, it will come with a monster price tag (new mobo and DDR5 are likely pricey for those of us who buy near the top tier).

DDR5 prices have come down significantly, and I expect prices to drop even more after launch. Note that 32gb if DDR5 is currently below what I paid for each of my 3 32gb DDR4 kits.

I suspect a wide range in motherboard pricing, and at the end of the day, the motherboard matters the least of component selection. Ryzen pricing will be competitive with Intel pricing. Pricing will be based on where in the stack each chip sits.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Unless Intel is hiding a big surprise for us, so far all indications point to AM5 being a very future proof platform until possibly Lunar Lake. I will sleep thinking about Zen 4 tonight. Maybe I will see something. If I do, it should be very weird.

 

[Hougy]

Sorry for the noobish question, but is Zen 4 expected to have big bumps in single core performance vs 12th gen Intel and the Ryzen 5000 series? Or multicore performance? Was looking to do a platform upgrade focused largely on emulation performance (yuzu / ryujinx / RPCS3) but still close enough to R7 3700x multicore performance to not fall behind in AAA gaming either this gen (targeting 60 fps). Wondering if it's likely I might be really sorry I didn't wait for Zen 4 and upgraded to a 12400F or 5600X instead since emulation is so cpu dependent.

My situation is the same. I have a 9 year old Haswell and for my new PC what will require the most CPU is certainly emulation. So I probably will go with Intel because currently they are better for emulation while Ryzen is better for common games.

But I'm thinking that the best time to upgrade is Raptor Lake because it might be the last gen to use the much cheaper DDR4 RAM.

 

[igor_kavinski]

But I'm thinking that the best time to upgrade is Raptor Lake because it might be the last gen to use the much cheaper DDR4 RAM.

You could prolong its life even more if you pick up a Z790 mobo with higher speed DDR5 on the cheap few years later.

 

[Markfw]

My situation is the same. I have a 9 year old Haswell and for my new PC what will require the most CPU is certainly emulation. So I probably will go with Intel because currently they are better for emulation while Ryzen is better for common games.

But I'm thinking that the best time to upgrade is Raptor Lake because it might be the last gen to use the much cheaper DDR4 RAM.

Do you have any benchmarks on this ? And are you going to wait for Zen 4 ? I have a 12700F (only 4 e-cores from a 12900ks) and several 5950x's. The 5950x's crush the 12700F at everything I do, while I see in a few benchmarks, the 12900ks wins, but very few. And with the 5800X3D out, it owns games. So I really don't think that Intel is better for emulation.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

My situation is the same. I have a 9 year old Haswell and for my new PC what will require the most CPU is certainly emulation. So I probably will go with Intel because currently they are better for emulation while Ryzen is better for common games.

But I'm thinking that the best time to upgrade is Raptor Lake because it might be the last gen to use the much cheaper DDR4 RAM.

If you care a lot about PS3 emulation apparently AVX 512 can offer some huge increases in performance in cpu bound games on RPCS3. Like 20% to 80%. Sadly Intel physically removed AVX 512 from their 12th gen processors around the new year. It was never officially supported apparently, but they eliminated being able to use it with old BIOS and old microcode.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rpcs3/comments/tqt1ko

 

[igor_kavinski]

So I really don't think that Intel is better for emulation.

You are surmising. Hard data would be better. Emulation workloads may not be comparable to gaming workloads.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

DDR5 prices have come down significantly, and I expect prices to drop even more after launch. Note that 32gb if DDR5 is currently below what I paid for each of my 3 32gb DDR4 kits.

I suspect a wide range in motherboard pricing, and at the end of the day, the motherboard matters the least of component selection. Ryzen pricing will be competitive with Intel pricing. Pricing will be based on where in the stack each chip sits.

Seemed like in doing research for the 12400F build that a lot of the $120 B660 boards couldn't run above an i3 without throttling. I hope AMD boards aren't like that too.

 

[Markfw]

You are surmising. Hard data would be better. Emulation workloads may not be comparable to gaming workloads.

The very first question I asked was does he have benchmarks. gaming is the strength of the 5800x3d. All productivity is owned by the 5950x, not sure where emulator play out.

 

[Ajay]

Top performance = very high price. That's how it's been since the dawn of time.

I expect Raphael to top anything Raptor Lake can offer and then some. AMD will be a premium platform, as in the days of Zen3, but it's ok, as we will have lower tier SKUs to pick as well.

Sure, but exactly what there are larger jumps when switching to entirely new platforms. When I built my current system at the end of 2019, it was reasonably priced. The mobo was more expensive than I thought it would be, but the x570s were pricey for people like me don't bother with cut down mid-range motherboards. The first 16GB of DDR4 was an okay price, the second 16GB was great. The thing is that Zen4 will be first gen with PCIe 5, DDR5 plus a new CPU (where it appears prices will be going up because of increased manufacturing costs, same with motherboards). I won't be upgrading to Zen4, if I did, I'd want DDR5 6400 - which would screw me right there! Depending on market fluctuations, by the time Zen5 comes around, fast DDR5 memory will likely be better priced. So, coming down a notch from top end, as I tend to do, maybe overall upgrade costs will be more reasonable.

 

[Saylick]

If you care a lot about PS3 emulation apparently AVX 512 can offer some huge increases in performance in cpu bound games on RPCS3. Like 20% to 80%. Sadly Intel physically removed AVX 512 from their 12th gen processors around the new year. It was never officially supported apparently, but they eliminated being able to use it with old BIOS and old microcode.

Good points.

Speaking of AVX512, we're still operating under the assumption that AMD won't fuse off AVX512 from desktop parts, right?

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Do you have any benchmarks on this ? And are you going to wait for Zen 4 ? I have a 12700F (only 4 e-cores from a 12900ks) and several 5950x's. The 5950x's crush the 12700F at everything I do, while I see in a few benchmarks, the 12900ks wins, but very few. And with the 5800X3D out, it owns games. So I really don't think that Intel is better for emulation.

I don't have any numbers, but the guy running the r/RPCS3 reddit posted this list of cpu tiers for RPCS3.



From asking on r/yuzu the 5800X3D is supposed to be the king of the hill for Switch emulation though.

 

[igor_kavinski]

The PS3 had a difficult to develop for architecture. Emulating it must be hell, as well.

 

[Markfw]

I don't have any numbers, but the guy running the r/RPCS3 reddit posted this list of cpu tiers for RPCS3.

View attachment 61892

From asking on r/yuzu the 5800X3D is supposed to be the king of the hill for Switch emulation though.

OK, thats interesting, BUT.... Does it require that AVX-512 is still functional ?

 

[SteveGrabowski]

OK, thats interesting, BUT.... Does it require that AVX-512 is still functional ?

No, according to this thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/rpcs3/comments/s6fc1y

 

[eek2121]

My situation is the same. I have a 9 year old Haswell and for my new PC what will require the most CPU is certainly emulation. So I probably will go with Intel because currently they are better for emulation while Ryzen is better for common games.

But I'm thinking that the best time to upgrade is Raptor Lake because it might be the last gen to use the much cheaper DDR4 RAM.

You are surmising. Hard data would be better. Emulation workloads may not be comparable to gaming workloads.

Zen 4 is going to outclass Intel chips in any emulation workload. Calling it now. Not that Zen 3 was lacking, however. As a Dolphin and Yuzu user, I can tell you that you heard wrong. Also, Emulators are becoming increasingly optimized for AMD thanks to stuff like the Steam Deck.

 

[DrMrLordX]

If you can afford it, I recommend a high end PCIE 4.0 or faster driver.

Oh without a doubt. No sense in getting a brand new AM5 rig with 12-16 cores and a new video card and then cheaping out on the SSD. Just a matter of finding the right drive since some of them seem to be shipping with components (and performance) that differs from review units.

As far as emulation goes, it's really hit-or-miss. Anandtech used to throw Dolphin emulation into the mix in CPU reviews. I'll just leave this here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/u8b4vk

which kind of corroborates what everyone else has been saying about rpcs3. As for Dolphin, it doesn't seem to gain much from extra $L3. It may love Raphael though.

 

[Frenetic Pony]

I am curious; what other types of cards do people add with so much built into the motherboard these days (USB, network, SATA, m.2, sound, etc)? I would expect that a huge number of systems add a video card and that is all. That says to me that the form factor is likely headed towards being obsolete. A lot of people just use a laptop at best these days and don’t own a desktop.

Only thing I can think of worthy of 16x PCIE5 is a GPU (devs need to test multiple vendors so whatever) ML/Compute card (obviously) or one of those weird SSD stack things where they put like 4 SSDs into a card.

None seems mainstream, but there's some use for it.

 

[eek2121]

Oh without a doubt. No sense in getting a brand new AM5 rig with 12-16 cores and a new video card and then cheaping out on the SSD. Just a matter of finding the right drive since some of them seem to be shipping with components (and performance) that differs from review units.

As far as emulation goes, it's really hit-or-miss. Anandtech used to throw Dolphin emulation into the mix in CPU reviews. I'll just leave this here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/u8b4vk

which kind of corroborates what everyone else has been saying about rpcs3. As for Dolphin, it doesn't seem to gain much from extra $L3. It may love Raphael though.

Full disclaimer, I did NOT read the link you mentioned. However, I used Dolphin on a regular basis up until the switch was released. I always grabbed 4K texture packs, framerate unlocks, etc. and never had issues at all. Can't think of a single game that ran at under 60fps, though I'll admit that my monitor at the time was a 4k60 monitor (my current one is a Samsung G9)

Yuzu and other switch emulators have been largely similar to the Wii U emulator for the most part. I don't play switch games often, however they run great with my setup. My hardware has absolutely not been the limiting factor (with the exception of the G9, since it is ACTUALLY a 120hz monitor despite what Samsung wants you to believe)

Most switch games made by Nintendo are Wii U ports. All of those run at 60-120fps. Nearly all do with gorgeous texture enhancements.

Most non-ported switch games run at least double what the switch could handle.

The 12900k does not lead the aging 5950x by more than 10% in any of the tests I've seen.

For non Nintendo stuff, Some PS3 stuff appears to perform slightly better on Intel stuff, however thing get a bit more controversial there. For a game that always runs at less than 240fps, can you tell the difference between 240 and 260 fps on a 360hz monitor? I am one of 10% who has said tech. I am an also an avid CS:GO guy (though no where near pro despite doing well in competitive) and I can't see the difference. In case I'm not clear, Both Intel and AMD have no issue running PSX, PS2, or PS3 natively at perfect (or better) framerates).

I always welcome discussions in this realm, however. These days, high framerates at high resolutions matter more than anything else. If you are running 1080p, that ship sailed long ago.

 

[DrMrLordX]

For non Nintendo stuff, Some PS3 stuff appears to perform slightly better on Intel stuff, however thing get a bit more controversial there.

There appear to be a few games that are CPU-only or nearly so. That's probably where CPU choice matters. In any case, things will change in a few months.

 

[xilli_fiberbit]

Now leak on MSI X670 motherboards :

https://twitter.com/x/status/1528269114082754560

 

[CakeMonster]

This is a bit nitpicky, but why not DP2.0 with a brand new platform? Is it the wiring on the MB, or does it imply that Z4 doesn't have it?

 

[Hougy]

I don't have any numbers, but the guy running the r/RPCS3 reddit posted this list of cpu tiers for RPCS3.

View attachment 61892

From asking on r/yuzu the 5800X3D is supposed to be the king of the hill for Switch emulation though.

That was mostly the basis of my claim when I said Intel is better for emulation.

Apparently the extra Zen3D cache helps for Yuzu but not for Ryujinx, but Switch emulation and common games should run ok in any modern CPU, so they should not guide your purchasing decision.

But RPCS3 games like The Last of Us won't always be above 30fps even in a 12900k, so that's what's important to consider if you plan to use the emulator a lot.

 

[Hougy]

Zen 4 is going to outclass Intel chips in any emulation workload. Calling it now. Not that Zen 3 was lacking, however. As a Dolphin and Yuzu user, I can tell you that you heard wrong. Also, Emulators are becoming increasingly optimized for AMD thanks to stuff like the Steam Deck.

Yes but for now I'm not even considering AM4 because it requires expensive DDR5. Raptor Lake might be similar to Zenr 4 in emulator performance and cheaper, we'll see. I will get the best cheap CPU later this year