Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[tamz_msc]

That memory latency in AIDA64 is the same as stock 12900K + XMP 3.0 with a kit having similar timings.

 

[Abwx]

Same source, same CPU with better water cooler. The 29,000 run was done on air cooler

Air cooler without thermal paste...

I mean 34% difference in this score imply that a run used more than twice the power, so if 39K is in the vicinity of 230W then 29K is well below 100W.

FTR the 7950X@65W should rougly match a stock 5950X and should score 29k at 90W.

 

[nicalandia]

Air cooler without thermal paste...

I mean 34% difference in this score imply that a run used more than twice the power, so if 39K is in the vicinity of 230W then 29K is well below 100W.

It was running at 65 Watts on air(Manual settings)

 

[Timmah!]

It was running at 65 Watts on air(Manual settings)

29k at 65 Watts? Thats decent. Too bad the efficiency after that point drops so brutally. Imagine if it was linear all the way, lol, CPU would score like 100k at 230W

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

29k at 65 Watts? Thats decent. Too bad the efficiency after that point drops so brutally. Imagine if it was linear all the way, lol, CPU would score like 100k at 230W

On the other hand, It's great news for laptops.
The highest score at notebookcheck.net are for both AMD and Intel:
100W Intel Core i9-12900HX - 23482 in CB R23
100W AMD Ryzen 9 6900HX - 15100 in CB R23

 

[nicalandia]

29k at 65 Watts? Thats decent. Too bad the efficiency after that point drops so brutally. Imagine if it was linear all the way, lol, CPU would score like 100k at 230W

As strong as Zen4 is in the Desktop. It was designed to be the undisputed Champion at Servers where efficiency/performance is king and bring Top Dollar. As a bonus it also makes a perfect CPU for low power laptops. Intel will be hurting at the Top end(Servers) and Low Power Devices(65Watt and below Laptops). On the desktop things are more competitive because most people are not constrained by space/cooling.

 

[Joe NYC]

What happened to Charlie D's brain?

Here in his gibberish filled article, he hypes Meteor Lake coming in "few months"

AMD Teases Ryzen 7000

Why does AMD keep pissing off the press and inflicting needless wounds on their reputation?

www.semiaccurate.com

His Intel Arc article also indicates significant brain damage.

 

[Abwx]

It was running at 65 Watts on air(Manual settings)

That bode with my 90W estimation since it was surely at 88W PPT.

AMD claim of 62% lower power at same perf hold perfectly and can be explained this way :


N5P provide 0.5x the power at same frequency,

Due to 9% higher IPC (for Cinebench) they can clock the 7950X at 0.917 x the frequency for the same throughput, this way power is reduced by a factor 0.77x.

0.77 x 0.5 = 0.385 x the power, that is, 61.5% less power at same throughput.

For the comparison at a fixed 65W there s a little technical bias because at this power the 5950X IOD use at least 15W, so only 50W are left for the cores while the 7950X IOD should be around 5W and 60W can be sent to the cores, hence the huge difference at 65W, but still, 1.74x the perf at this power seems to me to be erroneous, power reduction is right, though.

 

[biostud]

On the other hand, It's great news for laptops.
The highest score at notebookcheck.net are for both AMD and Intel:
100W Intel Core i9-12900HX - 23482 in CB R23
100W AMD Ryzen 9 6900HX - 15100 in CB R23

I don't think the 6900HX was optimized for 100W

 

[Timmah!]

What happened to Charlie D's brain?

Here in his gibberish filled article, he hypes Meteor Lake coming in "few months"

View attachment 67101

AMD Teases Ryzen 7000

Why does AMD keep pissing off the press and inflicting needless wounds on their reputation?

www.semiaccurate.com

His Intel Arc article also indicates significant brain damage.

Did he not used to sort of Pro-AMD and critical of Intel/Nvidia in the past? I havent read his articles in ages, so this surprises me.

 

[exquisitechar]

What happened to Charlie D's brain?

Here in his gibberish filled article, he hypes Meteor Lake coming in "few months"

View attachment 67101

He's not much different than usual, he's just been turning on AMD more and more in recent times so they're getting a bit of his typical Intel/Nvidia treatment.

 

[Abwx]

I don't think the 6900HX was optimized for 100W

Not only, the 12900HX is set at 150W or so for such a score, seems that people take at face value the base TDP of some Intel chips.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/MSI-Raider-GE77-HX-12UHS-in-review-4K-gaming-notebook-with-top-performance.634343.0.html

 

[Joe NYC]

Did he not used to sort of Pro-AMD and critical of Intel/Nvidia in the past? I havent read his articles in ages, so this surprises me.

He used to be critical of Intel.

And now, he came up with this excuse for Arc (farce of a) launch, that had the drivers all ready for Q4 2021 launch:

"Dog (Western sanctions on Russia) ate our drivers."

 

[Joe NYC]

He's not much different than usual, he's just been turning on AMD more and more in recent times so they're getting a bit of his typical Intel/Nvidia treatment.

I am guessing that he is a fan of Pat Gelsinger, and as a result he made 180 on Intel.

Here is a link to his Meteor Lake article:

 

[gdansk]

It's simple, Charlie prefers the underdog and now AMD is not the underdog.

 

[Joe NYC]

So at what time around RPL launch Will AMD either officially hint or leak information about 7800X3D and 7950X3D?

That's the million dollar question.

But look at the bright side: during the wait for V-Cache chips:
- initial BIOS glitches will get fixed
- full selection of motherboards will become available, including B650 mobos
- DDR5 prices are predicted to drop significantly
- selection and availability of EXPO optimized DDR5 kits will improve significantly
- PCIe5 M.2 SSDs will be on the market.

So, while I am curious about the performance of V-Cache models. the fact that they are not launching together with vanilla Zen 4 models is not really a problem for me... It will probably result in being able to get a better build for less money (based on the bullet points above.)

 

[Saylick]

It's simple, Charlie prefers the underdog and now AMD is not the underdog.

I think he believes AMD slighted him by not giving him a review sample or something, but I know he also dislikes the Pluton security processor and the Pensandon acquisition. Probably could lay off the diet soda as well... Lol

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Not only, the 12900HX is set at 150W or so for such a score, seems that people take at face value the base TDP of some Intel chips.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/MSI-Raider-GE77-HX-12UHS-in-review-4K-gaming-notebook-with-top-performance.634343.0.html

That score was from this review.
Intel Core i9-12900HX 16 x 1.7 - 5 GHz, 200 W PL2 / Short Burst, 100 W PL1 / Sustained
Power consumption in CB R15 Multi (external Monitor): Ø113.7 (112.5-115)

BTW my original point was that 16C32T Zen4 looks like a new leader in mobile.

 

[Det0x]

hwbot discord

F4 bios
View attachment 67079

Take it for what its worth..

 

[biostud]

That's the million dollar question.

But look at the bright side: during the wait for V-Cache chips:
- initial BIOS glitches will get fixed
- full selection of motherboards will become available, including B650 mobos
- DDR5 prices are predicted to drop significantly
- selection and availability of EXPO optimized DDR5 kits will improve significantly
- PCIe5 M.2 SSDs will be on the market.

So, while I am curious about the performance of V-Cache models. the fact that they are no launching together with vanilla Zen 4 models is not really a problem for me... It will probably result in being able to get a better build for less money (based on the bullet points above.)

Not to mention price drop on nand chips, more ATX3.0 PSUs and launch of new video cards.

 

[Timmah!]

That's the million dollar question.

But look at the bright side: during the wait for V-Cache chips:
- initial BIOS glitches will get fixed
- full selection of motherboards will become available, including B650 mobos
- DDR5 prices are predicted to drop significantly
- selection and availability of EXPO optimized DDR5 kits will improve significantly
- PCIe5 M.2 SSDs will be on the market.

So, while I am curious about the performance of V-Cache models. the fact that they are no launching together with vanilla Zen 4 models is not really a problem for me... It will probably result in being able to get a better build for less money (based on the bullet points above.)

All possibly true but still bit unfortunate. If Zen5 is coming 2024, i would prefer to build Zen4 rig still in 2022, not 2023, to avoid buyers remorse, especially if Zen5 will be significant improvement, as rumored.

I will believe those pricedrops when i see them

 

[yuri69]

Zen 4 is clearly a superior core, better perf./watt, same or better IPC, better ISA support (AVX512 with no clock regression), higher clocks, half the die area, better usage of structures ( just see the massive ROB size difference in Golden Cove vs Zen 4). Impressive from AMD, but we got spoiled so we expect crazy gains from them anyway. I look forward to Zen 5, Mike Clark was gushing like a fangirl when he spoke with Ian about Zen 5, it means it will bring massive gains.

Sadly, nobody has made a through IPC battle between Zen 3 and ADL. Set of singular results vary between 0-20+% to ADL. So I keep my fingers crossed that someone invests time and money to present us the epic IPC clash of RPL vs RPL.

My guess is Zen 4 has way less resources than Golden Cove, so it doesn't hit those notable outliers quite often. In 2024 Zen 5 should bring more resources as Golden Cove did in 2021.

 

[biostud]

All possibly true but still bit unfortunate. If Zen5 is coming 2024, i would prefer to build Zen4 rig still in 2022, not 2023, to avoid buyers remorse, especially if Zen5 will be significant improvement, as rumored.

I will believe those pricedrops when i see them

But zen5 3D in 2025

 

[nicalandia]

This is why the 7600X will beat the 12900K in Games.


Ryzen 5 7600X is indistinguishable from Core i9-12900KS in Geekbench single-core, manages to edge past Ryzen 7 5800X in multi-core

US$299 AMD Ryzen 5 7600X is indistinguishable from Core i9-12900KS in Geekbench single-core, manages to edge past Ryzen 7 5800X in multi-core

Geekbench results of the 6C/12T AMD Ryzen 5 7600X have surfaced online indicating a single-core performance equivalent to that of the Core i9-12900KS and better multi-core compared to even the 8C/16T Ryzen 7 5800X. At US$299, the Ryzen 5 7600X could turn out to be a viable option for those...

www.notebookcheck.net

Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-7D69 - Geekbench

Benchmark results for a Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-7D69 with an AMD Ryzen 5 7600X processor.

browser.geekbench.com

 

[FangBLade]

This is why the 7600X will beat the 12900K in Games.


Ryzen 5 7600X is indistinguishable from Core i9-12900KS in Geekbench single-core, manages to edge past Ryzen 7 5800X in multi-core

US$299 AMD Ryzen 5 7600X is indistinguishable from Core i9-12900KS in Geekbench single-core, manages to edge past Ryzen 7 5800X in multi-core

Geekbench results of the 6C/12T AMD Ryzen 5 7600X have surfaced online indicating a single-core performance equivalent to that of the Core i9-12900KS and better multi-core compared to even the 8C/16T Ryzen 7 5800X. At US$299, the Ryzen 5 7600X could turn out to be a viable option for those...

www.notebookcheck.net

View attachment 67111

Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-7D69 - Geekbench

Benchmark results for a Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-7D69 with an AMD Ryzen 5 7600X processor.

browser.geekbench.com

Nice, AMD saved all resources for Zen 5 and their Zen 4 low end product still beat Intel top end while consuming much less power, 3dcache will have much bigger lead in games, improvement in original cache hierarchy that is optimized even more for 3dcache + second generation 3dcache will easily beat RPL and reclaim gaming crown, and Zen 5 is completely new architecture, AMD have bright future.