Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[DrMrLordX]

12700K currently costs the same on Newegg so the only thing keeping the price/performance ratio in intel's favor is the motherboard cost.

It is unlikely the 12700k will remain at that price for long. Raptor Lake hits the market soon enough. Besides, you can also run a 12700k (or any Raptor Lake) with DDR4 if you are really trying to trim your platform budget.

 

[inf64]

It is unlikely the 12700k will remain at that price for long. Raptor Lake hits the market soon enough. Besides, you can also run a 12700k (or any Raptor Lake) with DDR4 if you are really trying to trim your platform budget.

Yeah, intel definitely has price advantage so AMD will have to consider lowering prices for 7700X/7600X or offering some great bundles with b650 boards.

 

[Atari2600]

Workstation on the cheap from Gigabyte with the B650E chipset :

AMD Ryzen 7000 für Workstation: Gigabyte kombiniert Profi-Mainboards mit Desktop-CPUs

Gigabyte kombiniert Workstation-Platinen mit B650E-Chipsatz und Ryzen 7000 zu einem Profi-System. Hinzu kommen zwei Workstation-Mainboards.

www.computerbase.de

Nice. No RGB bull.

They might have a buyer for that right here at some point.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Nice. No RGB bull.

They might have a buyer for that right here at some point.

It has only a VGA port. No dvi or HDMI port, why?

 

[Asterox]

Workstation on the cheap from Gigabyte with the B650E chipset :

AMD Ryzen 7000 für Workstation: Gigabyte kombiniert Profi-Mainboards mit Desktop-CPUs

Gigabyte kombiniert Workstation-Platinen mit B650E-Chipsatz und Ryzen 7000 zu einem Profi-System. Hinzu kommen zwei Workstation-Mainboards.

www.computerbase.de

This is probably what the cheapest Desktop B650 models(125$) will look like, or maybe even the A620 models in the future.Small or smaller VRM heatsink, nothing more for the lowest price or for the cheapest B650/A620 motherboard models.

In short, this link they are not B650 motherboards for only 125$.

Sixteen AMD B650E/B650 motherboards for Ryzen 7000 CPUs have been leaked - VideoCardz.com

AMD B650 motherboards are coming According to early sales data, retailers are seeing smaller interest in Ryzen 7/5 7000 models. The X670E and X670 boards are expensive to say the least, and that’s without including the cost of Ryzen 7000 CPU and DDR5 memory upgrade. However, there are new...

videocardz.com

 

[jpiniero]

Yeah, intel definitely has price advantage so AMD will have to consider lowering prices for 7700X/7600X or offering some great bundles with b650 boards.

Yeah but if people buy Zen 3 instead, is that really a problem for AMD?

 

[Yosar]

It is unlikely the 12700k will remain at that price for long. Raptor Lake hits the market soon enough. Besides, you can also run a 12700k (or any Raptor Lake) with DDR4 if you are really trying to trim your platform budget.

But then you have to trim down performance from those benchmarks about 10% due to lack of DDR5, and you are in territory of Zen 3 performance with its gaming king 5800X3D (with that 12700K stands no chance).
If you don't want new platform (with DDR5) AM4 with 5800X3D is still much better option.

 

[nicalandia]

Looks like after the initial gotta have it crew, sales fell off hard. 13th gen launching soon, expensive boards, and expectations of 3D not far off have spoiled the party.

I was afraid that showing Zen4X3D would cause an Osborne effect on Zen4 parts.

 

[DrMrLordX]

But then you have to trim down performance from those benchmarks about 10% due to lack of DDR5, and you are in territory of Zen 3 performance with its gaming king 5800X3D (with that 12700K stands no chance).
If you don't want new platform (with DDR5) AM4 with 5800X3D is still much better option.

Depends on the application. But yes if you're going to cheap out on a 12700k build there may be consequences.

 

[trexfromouterspace]

Depends on the application. But yes if you're going to cheap out on a 12700k build there may be consequences.

To clarify, we know your address. We know where you are because we know where you're not. We know what you're doing because we know what you're not doing. If you cheap out on a 12700k we WILL make you regret it.

 

[DrMrLordX]

To clarify, we know your address. We know where you are because we know where you're not. We know what you're doing because we know what you're not doing. If you cheap out on a 12700k we WILL make you regret it.

Not quite what I had in mind, but hey you do you buddy. Alder Lake Police reprushent?

 

[Timmah!]

That's a Xeon-W though. Not exactly the same product line as Core-X.

That 34C will be most likely Xeon-W as well. And will be priced accordingly to TR Pro, thus expensive as hell.

Unless intel decides to revive core-x and fill the massive price-gap between client and workstation/server.

 

[nicalandia]

That 34C will be most likely Xeon-W as well. And will be priced accordingly to TR Pro, thus expensive as hell.

Unless intel decides to revive core-x and fill the massive price-gap between client and workstation/server.

Intel has already Segmented the Xeon Workstation W series similar to the core series. W5(i5), W7(i7) and W9(i9)

That Huge Monolithic will be used for the Xeon W7-3465X which is a 28C/56T CPU and indivisible by 4 and by smaller core count where it makes sense to use dies that had a few faulty cores.

 

[Timmah!]

I'm hearing that Zen4 is being bundled with RAM, so, something is happening with desktop sales. I like that AMD kept Zen4 prices mostly reasonable, but maybe even that wasn't enough? I guess people are looking for a deal. This shouldn't be a surprise with Intel coming out a mere month later; it's sensible for most people to just wait, but the motherboard tiering and pricing does seem to indicate that someone anticipated higher sales than I would have bet on.

Perhaps this is an attempt to move the chips to the server/Pro side? What I'm hearing is that purchasing plans for hardware are down, software is up, so I'm not sure Pro will move in quantity either. Maybe it's time for another half-hearted attempt to curry favor with non-Pro TR enthusiasts? Y'know, the market that's been starved for years now.... [tried but failed to keep the sarcasm at bay]

Could be interesting times. Oddly, I'm more interested to see if we get V3000 based products, though I'm surprised that that one doesn't seem to have an igpu (wat?) and I guess that's off-topic for here anyway.

More on-topic -- I'm surprised to see that 4x25Gbps isn't standard yet, and we're still playing with 4x10. Probably not the right forum audience, but :shrug:

They dropped a ball with lack of v-cache. Should have been in there by default.

 

[biostud]

They dropped a ball with lack of v-cache. Should have been in there by default.

The problem is not the price of the CPU, but the motherboards, X670 is too expensive for 7600X and 7700x builds.

 

[Kaluan]

The problem is not the price of the CPU, but the motherboards, X670 is too expensive for 7600X and 7700x builds.

Well, B650s and general AM5 price settling down is on the way, I think we all remember when Intel Socket 1700/ADL launched, Z690 mobo prices were prohibitive as hell. But I will say the mobo prices are the biggest turn off for me. Even tho most of them are absolutely stacked with bleeding edge desktop connectivity and features. The mandatory big BIOS ROM sizes and CPUless flashing in themselves makes me think at least on paper, they're doing their homework right with this platform.

Either way, due to money and personal constraints, I won't be doing a Day 1-ish AM5 build just yet, RAM is not there yet, and I want keep RAM + mobo (Crosshair Hero) around for even post Zen5 drop-ins. But I'm still salivating at doing a 7700X@5,6GHz + 6400MT CL30/2133MHz IF & RX 7800 build. The big gaming and PS productivity gains sold me.

Other than Hardware Unboxed and Igor, are there any other reviews that dive into FCLK and memory tweaking?

Who else thinks microcode/"finewine" updates may change the Zen4 game up quite a bit in say, 6 months? I haven't seen anyone cover this. It a was a big thing on AM4, even in the Zen3 era.

 

[Revolution 11]

As much as I want a new system I like value in addition to the performance. I also like options. Right now I don't think AM5 offers either. Boards, RAM, ATX 3.0 PSUs and pcie5 drives are all lacking. And GPU options still aren't quite there for me yet. So I'll keep waiting with hopes that by Christmas things start to come into focus.

But it's hard every time I see a review of the new CPUs.

Just stick your head in the sand until a week before Thanksgiving. Then give your an early Christmas present. Or decide firmly that you will wait for the Zen 4 X3D variant in early 2023.

 

[Revolution 11]

Not quite what I had in mind, but hey you do you buddy. Alder Lake Police reprushent?

The Blue Force at it again...

 

[ondma]

It also had stock Zen 4, and still beat everything. But you would not know know fair if it hit you in the head. Trolls never do.

Well, I totally agree with you, but with a different perspective.

 

[gdansk]

Workstation on the cheap from Gigabyte with the B650E chipset :

AMD Ryzen 7000 für Workstation: Gigabyte kombiniert Profi-Mainboards mit Desktop-CPUs

Gigabyte kombiniert Workstation-Platinen mit B650E-Chipsatz und Ryzen 7000 zu einem Profi-System. Hinzu kommen zwei Workstation-Mainboards.

www.computerbase.de

That MC13-LE1 looks nearly ideal as replacement for my home server's motherboard.

 

[biostud]

Well, B650s and general AM5 price settling down is on the way, I think we all remember when Intel Socket 1700/ADL launched, Z690 mobo prices were prohibitive as hell. But I will say the mobo prices are the biggest turn off for me. Even tho most of them are absolutely stacked with bleeding edge desktop connectivity and features. The mandatory big BIOS ROM sizes and CPUless flashing in themselves makes me think at least on paper, they're doing their homework right with this platform.

Either way, due to money and personal constraints, I won't be doing a Day 1-ish AM5 build just yet, RAM is not there yet, and I want keep RAM + mobo (Crosshair Hero) around for even post Zen5 drop-ins. But I'm still salivating at doing a 7700X@5,6GHz + 6400MT CL30/2133MHz IF & RX 7800 build. The big gaming and PS productivity gains sold me.

Other than Hardware Unboxed and Igor, are there any other reviews that dive into FCLK and memory tweaking?

Who else thinks microcode/"finewine" updates may change the Zen4 game up quite a bit in say, 6 months? I haven't seen anyone cover this. It a was a big thing on AM4, even in the Zen3 era.

As I have posted somewhere else I’ll be waiting for B650E +7800X3D and probably a 7800XT and a pcie5 nvme drive, so a 2023 build. Price should be better and a couple of microcodes/AGESA revisions later.

 

[Kocicak]

There are some rumors about poor initial ZEN4 sales and also about intentional milking and overpricing strategy of (some) MB manufacturers.

These two could be connected. Honestly I think that MB manufacturers are shooting themselves (and everybody else too) in the feet.

 

[biostud]

There are some rumors about poor initial ZEN4 sales and also about intentional milking and overpricing strategy of (some) MB manufacturers.

These two could be connected. Honestly I think that MB manufacturers are shooting themselves (and everybody else too) in the feet.

If they over time can sell the same amount, it makes good sense to set the price high initially for the MB makers at least. I don't know how it affects AMD's overall strategy.

 

[nicalandia]

I did not see this posted here. But Linux actually runs faster with Mitigations On(For ALL CPU Vulnerabilities found so far) for Zen4.

With AMD Zen 4, It's Surprisingly Not Worthwhile Disabling CPU Security Mitigations - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

 

[Kaluan]

As I have posted somewhere else I’ll be waiting for B650E +7800X3D and probably a 7800XT and a pcie5 nvme drive, so a 2023 build. Price should be better and a couple of microcodes/AGESA revisions later.

Yeah, I might as well wait for the stacked SKUs as well. Considering what we've just said about AGESA updates and mobo options and pricing settling down a bit, might as well hit 2 birds with one stone (I think they haven't said anything about them because of the Osborne Effect), even tho massive caches might nullify the idea of spending on fancy RAM lol (which is a good thing, but it might also sway me from getting a more "futureproof" kit, so I'll just end up buying a newer kit 3 years from now).

BTW there's a French (I think) review that tested both 12th gen and Ryzen 7000 with both a high end RTX 3000 and hugh end RX 6000 and on the Radeon setup, Ryzen 7000 pulled further ahead vs 12th gen than with GeForce. Driver and hardware level differences stuff aside, some might see it as extra incentive to go full red build. Which I'm 99% doing anyway, even before seeing that.

I don't remember the outlet's name, but I'll post the link/SSs if I manage to find it again.

I did not see this posted here. But Linux actually runs faster with Mitigations On(For ALL CPU Vulnerabilities found so far) for Zen4.

With AMD Zen 4, It's Surprisingly Not Worthwhile Disabling CPU Security Mitigations - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

lol
That's very interesting, already spinning my head as to figuring out why that is so. You always seem to to post interesting finds, nice. Thanks.