Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[eek2121]

Yeah but every single one of them supports the full 170W TDP/230WPPT setting. The question was not about the existence of SFF mainboards, but having MB not supporting the full power requirements for AM5 CPUs.

Unsure why that would be needed. It is 'trivial' for companies to support 230W, they've been supporting Intel chips for years. It should not add much to the cost. The reason the board cost is high is a combination of PCIE5 support (which requires more layers, etc.) and inflation. Also AMD launched the premium stuff first. B650 boards right now start at $169, which is reasonable for anyone looking for an affordable entry point. Of course you still have to pay for the memory, but DDR5 prices have been coming down.

Zen 4 might legitimately be selling really poorly. Top 10 best sellers on Newegg is dominated by Zen 3 with some smattering of Alder Lake.

Zen 4 won't be topping charts. You can't just drop the chips into an existing system. You can't reuse memory, etc. The platform requires a new motherboard, CPU, and RAM.

Side Note: I built a small form factor PC. It is almost as small as you can get without sacrificing the GPU. I have no issues running the CPU at 230W PPT.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Zen 4 won't be topping charts. You can't just drop the chips into an existing system. You can't reuse memory, etc. The platform requires a new motherboard, CPU, and RAM.

So long as Raphael keeps getting outsold by Vermeer, it's not likely that AMD will be bothered.

 

[soresu]

So long as Raphael keeps getting outsold by Vermeer, it's not likely that AMD will be bothered.

Agreed, AMD want this to clear out AM4 stock.

I'm more interested in whether AM5 prices will change when that happens.

 

[biostud]

Agreed, AMD want this to clear out AM4 stock.

I'm more interested in whether AM5 prices will change when that happens.

Nothing changes until RPL is readily available in the market.

And as I've posted elsewhere, there are so many reasons why an early 2023 build is more likely for everyone who plans a total upgrade.

 

[nicalandia]

Tune 7950X vs Tune 12900k

 

[Det0x]

Tune 7950X vs Tune 12900k

View attachment 69177

Who "tuned" that ? Kinda doubtful they knew that they were doing..

5950x maxes out at around ~350 cpu game fps
12900ks maxed out at around ~370 cpu game fps
7950x maxes out at around ~390 cpu game fps
5800x3d maxed out at around ~415 cpu game fps
13900k maxes out at around ~415 cpu game fps

 

[nicalandia]

Who "tuned" that ? Kinda doubtful they knew that they were doing..

CAPFRAMEX himself..!

 

[Det0x]

CAPFRAMEX himself..!

Yes exactly..

 

[nicalandia]

Yes exactly..

So you doubt that 7950X is that good? Tuned 12900K seem to give a 13% boost and Tuned 7950X seem to be giving 16% gaming boost from stock. Why is this not credible?

He did report not using the Built In benchmark tool..!

 

[inf64]

He stated that he ran custom settings so fps counter is showing different results Vs the "stock" SOTR benchmark. 7950X tuned is likely the best gaming chip right now, if properly tuned (vs other tuned chips). Let's see if Raptor Lake will bring any meaningful performance jumps or we'll have to wait for X3D parts.

 

[nicalandia]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1580955691702812677

 

[exquisitechar]

Who "tuned" that ? Kinda doubtful they knew that they were doing..

5950x maxes out at around ~350 cpu game fps
12900ks maxed out at around ~370 cpu game fps
7950x maxes out at around ~390 cpu game fps
5800x3d maxed out at around ~415 cpu game fps
13900k maxes out at around ~415 cpu game fps

He's probably testing a different scene with possibly different settings/resolution.

 

[naad]

Raptor's biggest improvement comes from fixing low clocking stock ringbus, anyone tuning ADL would have fixed that first and foremost before attempting anything else.
It's gonna be real close, Raptor has a decent clock boost against 12900k, but not against the KS and tuned vs tuned will look awfully similar.

 

[Det0x]

So you doubt that 7950X is that good? Tuned 12900K seem to give a 13% boost and Tuned 7950X seem to be giving 16% gaming boost from stock. Why is this not credible?

He did report not using the Built In benchmark tool..!

This is some of the benchmark data we have

My old bios with lower performance 7950x results:


But ofcourse if he didn't use ingame benchmark and used a custom location/place there is no way to dispute his results.
I'm just doubting a twitter guy's "intensive tuning session".. Show me something so i can judge if he knows what he is doing

 

[inf64]

@Det0x

The tester used very different settings, so that's why it's not comparable to your results. It's just shows that 7950X is basically able to gain a lot of performance from tuning the memory subsystem (as you already know )

 

[eek2121]

I am going to speculate the 7950X3D will cost $799 unless Intel has a competitive product at a lower price.

 

[nicalandia]

I am going to speculate the 7950X3D will cost $799 unless Intel has a competitive product at a lower price.

I doubt that AMD will release the 7950X3D, since the 7700X seem to be at par or on some games even better than the 7950X. So the 7800X3D will reign supreme for a few years. If anyone want s a 16C/32T Zen43D they can buy the EPYC GenoaX3D version

By the way, has any mad lad been able to get his hand at one of those EPYC with 16C/32T with relative high speed(3.9 Ghz) and game with it and see what they get?

 

[inf64]

Max boost of only 3.9Ghz would render it subpar Vs stock 5800X3D

 

[nicalandia]

Max boost of only 3.9Ghz would render it subpar Vs stock 5800X3D

It will depend on the game... The 7373X tramples the 5950X on specific benchmarks. So some games might see absurd gains..! But that CPU is $4,000 plus $800 Motherboard and $600 RAM and a 3090 GPU.. You could build 4 5800X3D systems with good GPUs...

We need to find the Mad Lad that built such System(7373X, High End MB and 3090 Ti) and test a few games...

 

[eek2121]

I doubt that AMD will release the 7950X3D, since the 7700X seem to be at par or on some games even better than the 7950X. So the 7800X3D will reign supreme for a few years. If anyone want s a 16C/32T Zen43D they can buy the EPYC GenoaX3D version

By the way, has any mad lad been able to get his hand at one of those EPYC with 16C/32T with relative high speed(3.9 Ghz) and game with it and see what they get?

View attachment 69200

I think we will. AMD likely didn’t go all out last gen due to clockspeed issues. The 13900ks and also further Intel launches next year means AMD will need a faster model to maintain performance leadership. They may start in the middle and do a 7800X3D, but I suspect we will eventually see a top end chip.

 

[nicalandia]

I think we will. AMD likely didn’t go all out last gen due to clockspeed issues. The 13900ks and also further Intel launches next year means AMD will need a faster model to maintain performance leadership. They may start in the middle and do a 7800X3D, but I suspect we will eventually see a top end chip.

For gaming purposes the second chiplet make no difference, beside bragging rights on having the most cache per CPU.

 

[biostud]

The market for a 7900X3D and 7950X3D is pretty small. But let's see if they're going to be launched.

 

[rtxtwt]

A test of 7700X with low latency/high bandwidth DRAM profile, against 13600k,13700k

https://twitter.com/x/status/1581294442475966465

 

[nicalandia]

The market for a 7900X3D and 7950X3D is pretty small. But let's see if they're going to be launched.

Also a single CCD with 3D V Cache is better for gaming




As you can see... 1 CCD is better than 2 CCD for gaming(we all knew that since the 3950X days), so a 7800X3D will just be enough to counter any 13900KS(which has 8P cores and don't use the e cores for gaming)

 

[ondma]

For those near a microcenter, I just noticed that for 7700x and above, they are giving away 32gb 5600 ram with purchase of Zen 4, at least in the Twin Cities store.