Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

dullard · Jun 1, 2023

eek2121 said:
raising the base clocks by more than 80%.

A/// said:
80%? you believe intel figured out how to run dlv whatever that stuff is called

eek2121 said:
This particular chip (below) is "only" clocked 63% higher than the equivalent Raptor Lake chip

I think you two are talking past each other. @eek2121, your link at 63% does not YET prove your 80% claim. And 80% base increase does not necessarily translate into much benchmark performance increase. Especially since at least in that leak the turbo speed dropped 21%. Yes, this isn't a final version. But we don't YET have leaked data to show final performance.

@A///, Intel had DLVR in Raptor Lake but fused it off. Heck it is still in their Raptor Lake electrical specifications updated Feb 2023.

Voltage Regulator - 005 - ID:743844 | 13th Generation Intel® Core™ Processors

edc.intel.com

I'd love to know the story as to why it was fused off.

I personally am betting that Meteor Lake will have some nice features, which can in some cases give much improved performance. But, I think the real winner will be Arrow Lake.

H433x0n · Jun 1, 2023

Noobish question that I can hopefully get answered:

When Intel advertises a base clock - What exactly does it mean? I had assumed it meant this is the minimum sustainable clock speed at full utilization for the advertised PL2.. Is this a correct assumption?

Exist50 · Jun 1, 2023

H433x0n said:
Noobish question that I can hopefully get answered:

When Intel advertises a base clock - What exactly does it mean? I had assumed it meant this is the minimum sustainable clock speed at full utilization for the advertised PL2.. Is this a correct assumption?

The closest definition seems to be guaranteed clocks at PL1, though AVX/AMX workloads can have their own base clocks.

dullard · Jun 1, 2023

H433x0n said:
When Intel advertises a base clock - What exactly does it mean? I had assumed it meant this is the minimum sustainable clock speed at full utilization for the advertised PL2.. Is this a correct assumption?

@Exist50 is correct. I'll just add in Intel's definition that they list with every single processor on their ark website if you click the question mark for Base Power (Example: https://ark.intel.com/content/www/u...1370p-processor-24m-cache-up-to-5-20-ghz.html ):

"Processor Base Power
The time-averaged power dissipation that the processor is validated to not exceed during manufacturing while executing an Intel-specified high complexity workload at Base Frequency and at the junction temperature as specified in the Datasheet for the SKU segment and configuration"

This gives you Exist50's comment: If the processor is running at it's rated base speed, then the CPU will not exceed the processor's rated base power (PL1).

There are three caveats in their statement. (1) CPUs might behave differently than their claims at extreme temperatures. (2) This is a specific workload but not the most power hungry workload possible (a power virus). A power virus might do something like switch every transistor from 0 to 1 and back every cycle which takes a lot of power to charge and discharge all of those transistors billions of times per second. (3) The words "time-averaged" gives them leeway for brief periods to go above or below (PL1)--they aren't trying to hit that target perfectly at every possible microsecond.

The unstated 4th caveat: If the processor is running at it's turbo speed then it most likely will run at a much higher power level (up to PL4 for a brief moment).

A/// · Jun 1, 2023

eek2121 said:
We have actual leaks, my dude. This particular chip (below) is "only" clocked 63% higher than the equivalent Raptor Lake chip while containing 2 more "e" cores (rumored to be on the SoC). The PL2 of 28W is unchanged. This isn't even the highest clocked SKU, and it appears to be an ES chip.

Now imagine this chip in a 2 lb ultrabook:

I'm fairly pessimistic myself, but I can also do basic math. Unless there are IPC regressions, this looks to be a decent offering by Intel. We will see when the reviews and such drop, however.

I don't know which rumor release this pertains to but I like to take a very conservative approach on engineering sample results like this or the hardware but mostly in light because of the very recent leak where the clock freq is stuck at around 680 mhz. In the 12 hours since I've seen a lot of hot takes, mostly dumb, trying to extrapolate end performance. I'm not accusing you or anyone here of that because what I've seen has been lowballing intel big time.

Engineering samples can be real old or recent. The laptop in question with the clock issue could have been using an es gotten recently or it could be over a year to maybe 2 years old depending on how intel operates. I know gelsinger mentioned they powered on meteor lake for the first time a hell of a long time ago.

There was rumor a while back dlvr was solved by Intel and they got it working on mobile and desktop. it's why there's a lot of hot bull about the raptor refresh. I've seen high 5 all cores with mid 6 2 core boosts. while using only a little more than the package limit. not mentioned online in rumors I've been told my own dire rumors of the 14900K refresh having quite a bit of oc room from stock allowing it to soar while getting close but nowhere near the pl2 limit. This coupled with enduring 30 years of Intel and AMD's bs is why I'm so skeptical of anything I see until an official product launches and is reviewed by independent reviewers. This ain't my first rodeo and hopefully won't be my last.

eek2121 · Jun 1, 2023

A/// said:
I don't know which rumor release this pertains to but I like to take a very conservative approach on engineering sample results like this or the hardware but mostly in light because of the very recent leak where the clock freq is stuck at around 680 mhz. In the 12 hours since I've seen a lot of hot takes, mostly dumb, trying to extrapolate end performance. I'm not accusing you or anyone here of that because what I've seen has been lowballing intel big time.

Engineering samples can be real old or recent. The laptop in question with the clock issue could have been using an es gotten recently or it could be over a year to maybe 2 years old depending on how intel operates. I know gelsinger mentioned they powered on meteor lake for the first time a hell of a long time ago.

There was rumor a while back dlvr was solved by Intel and they got it working on mobile and desktop. it's why there's a lot of hot bull about the raptor refresh. I've seen high 5 all cores with mid 6 2 core boosts. while using only a little more than the package limit. not mentioned online in rumors I've been told my own dire rumors of the 14900K refresh having quite a bit of oc room from stock allowing it to soar while getting close but nowhere near the pl2 limit. This coupled with enduring 30 years of Intel and AMD's bs is why I'm so skeptical of anything I see until an official product launches and is reviewed by independent reviewers. This ain't my first rodeo and hopefully won't be my last.

I am honestly unsure of DLVR. I know (but cannot prove) that Intel has hit 5.4 ghz on Intel 4. I suspect we won't see it in released products. We will see, however. I am almost positive MTL-P is hitting 3.1 ghz base clocks @ 28 watts unless someone did an amazing job at faking screenshots (which I doubt), Finally, I also strongly suspect there is at least one SKU with 3.4 ghz base based on linux DMESG.

Unsure how much of it comes down to process or power saving tech, but it IMO it really doesn't matter.

A/// · Jun 1, 2023

eek2121 said:
I am honestly unsure of DLVR. I know (but cannot prove) that Intel has hit 5.4 ghz on Intel 4. I suspect we won't see it in released products. We will see, however. I am almost positive MTL-P is hitting 3.1 ghz base clocks @ 28 watts unless someone did an amazing job at faking screenshots (which I doubt), Finally, I also strongly suspect there is at least one SKU with 3.4 ghz base based on linux DMESG.

Unsure how much of it comes down to process or power saving tech, but it IMO it really doesn't matter.

the article got deleted i guess they got a dmca notice from intel or msi. for dlvr the way I see it is it's baked into the silicon and can't be disabled without microcode changes at the bios level. it based on my personal dreams is it opens up the processor's ability to hit higher clocks while reducing the power needed through clever whatever you want to call it. in low power states or power plans it'll be efficient. I'm not sure where it'll stand with amd's power framework which amd talks about in their ryzen 5 years later video, and future power states, or whether dlvr is the first of many steps but both approaches are promising tech not just for mobile platforms but for non mobile platforms including desktop and dc. it'll take several generations for both amd to intel to fine tune and hone their development, but other tech dropping in consumer over the next 3-4 years is very exciting on multiple fronts.

for us mortals it's a quiet waiting game to hand over our hard earned cash.

A/// · Jun 2, 2023

hasen's website ran an article a few hours ago and then changed the date as if it were published 13 hours ago when it was up top in the fold. it's a rumor article from an mdipsh** video, nothing interesting but the rumored return of an 8+32 config pulled out of mdipsh**'s behind. There is also something called beast lake which sounds made up and rumors of zen 6 pushing more cores. I assume by zen 6 am6 will be the socket because Zen4 and its 3D are technically 2 generations of processors.

My humble take for Arrow Lake is an 8+16+2/4 combo. after slogging through some of @Geddagod's posts I realized the point of there being cores on the soc tile to avoid unncessary wake up on the compute tiles leading to lower power use unless more than 2 or 4 cores require unparking or wake status if you will. very interesting. gonna be fun to see how those will work mobile wise starting with meteor lake p in a few months hopefully.

nicalandia · Jun 2, 2023

MLD leak: Beast Lake..

TESKATLIPOKA · Jun 2, 2023

nicalandia said:
MLD leak: Beast Lake..

View attachment 81294

View attachment 81295

Let's see.
1.) Meteor Lake will be faster than Raptor by an unknown amount.
2.) Arrow Lake will be 30-40% faster in ST than Raptor Lake and 40% faster in MT than Meteor Lake with the same core count.
3.) Panther lake will be 30-40% faster in ST and 15-20% faster in MT than Arrow Lake with the same core count.

Summary:
Panther lake will be according to MLID 69-96% faster in ST than Raptor Lake and 61-68% faster in MT than Meteor Lake and this with the same core count and within ~3 years.
Conclusion:
This is a total BS, especially that ST performance. Frequency won't increase significantly, so It means performance should come mostly from IPC.
>50% increase in IPC, what a nonsense in 3 years.

@dullard You are right about that ST performance, I fixed my post.

dullard · Jun 2, 2023

TESKATLIPOKA said:
2.) Arrow Lake will be 30-40% faster in ST and 40% faster in MT than Meteor Lake with the same core count.

Note: the portion in red is NOT what MLID said. So the rest of your math is not what he claims either.

He specifically claimed (without any evidence) of 30% to 40% ST faster than Raptor Lake not Meteor Lake (and not even Raptor Lake Refresh). That would be 30% to 40% ST with 2 node shrinks and a new core (3 node shrinks if you count skipping Intel 3). That would require Arrow Lake turbo to be roughly, mid 6 GHz to mid 7 GHz depending on IPC gains.

I'm not saying MLID is correct, but you took his rumors way past even what MLID claims.

nicalandia · Jun 2, 2023

dullard said:
I'm not saying MLID is correct, but

MLID is a very good source, most of his leaks have come true or very close to. The times he has been incorrect has been due biased sources

dullard · Jun 2, 2023

nicalandia said:
MLID is a very good source, most of his leaks have come true or very close to. The times he has been incorrect has been due biased sources

It would be interesting if anyone had the time to actually make a scoring sheet with track records of their past predictions for products out now.

ondma · Jun 2, 2023

dullard said:
Note: the portion in red is NOT what MLID said. So the rest of your math is not what he claims either.

He specifically claimed (without any evidence) of 30% to 40% ST faster than Raptor Lake not Meteor Lake (and not even Raptor Lake Refresh). That would be 30% to 40% ST with 2 node shrinks and a new core (3 node shrinks if you count skipping Intel 3). That would require Arrow Lake turbo to be roughly, mid 6 GHz to mid 7 GHz depending on IPC gains.

I'm not saying MLID is correct, but you took his rumors way past even what MLID claims.

I could believe that ArL could be 30% (40% seems a bit much) faster than Raptor Lake. Like you said, that is two generations, and also Alder/Raptor/Raptor Refresh has been stalled for a while with small IPC gains. I am not that familiar with Panther, but another huge gain on top of Arrow Lake seems very unrealistic. Maybe it is the long rumored Royal Core????

Exist50 · Jun 2, 2023

TESKATLIPOKA said:
This is a total BS, especially that ST performance. Frequency won't increase significantly, so It means performance should come mostly from IPC.
>50% increase in IPC, what a nonsense in 3 years.

Maybe Royal could do that, but Cougar Cove? Lol. This should be clear by now, but a single team is simply incapable of delivering significant yearly IPC gains.

nicalandia said:
MLID is a very good source, most of his leaks have come true or very close to. The times he has been incorrect has been due biased sources

He's been full of it. Pretty much every number he ever throws out is straight BS. Occasionally he gets some detail right, but it's pointless when the only people who can find the needle in the haystack already know.

ondma said:
I am not that familiar with Panther, but another huge gain on top of Arrow Lake seems very unrealistic. Maybe it is the long rumored Royal Core????

Royal is Royal. Lion Cove is not Royal. Cougar Cove isn't Royal. Panther Cove isn't Royal. Royal is Royal. Beast Lake may be the SoC, but the core name is not ambiguous.

SiliconFly · Jun 2, 2023

lightisgood said:
https://pics.computerbase.de/1/0/7/8/5/8-8bd6c4f596576eb9/article-640x360.fad670f9.jpg

3:2 aspect ratio suggests to equip itself with MTL-P.
MTL-P gets 60% frequency improvement at iso-power (c.f. i7-1370P/6P8E/1.9GHz/28W).

When compared to Intel 7, Intel 4 gets 20% frequency improvement at iso-power. Or we can expect Intel 4 to have around 35% to 40% less power usage compared to Intel 7 at iso-freq (either one but not both at the same time).

60% frequency improvement for MTL-P at iso-power over previous gen RPL-P equivalent is just not possible i think.

eek2121 · Jun 2, 2023

SiliconFly said:
When compared to Intel 7, Intel 4 gets 20% frequency improvement at iso-power. Or we can expect Intel 4 to have around 35% to 40% less power usage compared to Intel 7 (either one but not both at the same time).

60% frequency improvement for MTL-P at iso-power over previous gen RPL-P equivalent is just not possible i think.

Likely a combination or architectural improvements, DLVR, and other power management improvements.

This graph from AT is actually pretty informative:

SiliconFly · Jun 2, 2023

TESKATLIPOKA said:
Let's see.
1.) Meteor Lake will be faster than Raptor by an unknown amount.
2.) Arrow Lake will be 30-40% faster in ST than Raptor Lake and 40% faster in MT than Meteor Lake with the same core count.
3.) Panther lake will be 30-40% faster in ST and 15-20% faster in MT than Arrow Lake with the same core count.

Summary:
Panther lake will be according to MLID 69-96% faster in ST than Raptor Lake and 61-68% faster in MT than Meteor Lake and this with the same core count and within ~3 years.
Conclusion:
This is a total BS, especially that ST performance. Frequency won't increase significantly, so It means performance should come mostly from IPC.
>50% increase in IPC, what a nonsense in 3 years.

@dullard You are right about that ST performance, I fixed my post.

True. It is BS. He's just doing what he always does. An AMD sympathizer who constantly spreads FUD about Intel & Nvidia every chance he gets. In this case, he's just trying to set the bar too high, so when the actual intel cpu comes out and doesn't meet the unrealistic expectations, people will feel disappointed.

He's too toxic. Just ignore that idiot.

SiliconFly · Jun 2, 2023

eek2121 said:
Likely a combination or architectural improvements, DLVR, and other power management improvements.

This graph from AT is actually pretty informative:

View attachment 81301

This image shows exactly what i mentioned previously. Roughly between 16% to 24% improvement in frequency at iso-power with Intel 4 8VT cells compared to Intel 7. Averaging at 20% performance gains like Intel's Intel 4 claims.

60% is not shown anywhere in this pic.

DLVR & the new ULP E-cores sound very exciting. Waiting for more info abt these...

A/// · Jun 2, 2023

nicalandia said:
MLD leak: Beast Lake..

View attachment 81294

View attachment 81295

That boy needs a walloping upside his head to get back to reality. For you younger ones mlid is the reason they tell women not to engage in alcohol or hard drug use during pregnancy.

A/// · Jun 2, 2023

dullard said:
Note: the portion in red is NOT what MLID said. So the rest of your math is not what he claims either.

He specifically claimed (without any evidence) of 30% to 40% ST faster than Raptor Lake not Meteor Lake (and not even Raptor Lake Refresh). That would be 30% to 40% ST with 2 node shrinks and a new core (3 node shrinks if you count skipping Intel 3). That would require Arrow Lake turbo to be roughly, mid 6 GHz to mid 7 GHz depending on IPC gains.

I'm not saying MLID is correct, but you took his rumors way past even what MLID claims.

And even if the dumbass had reliable info now I can't see those mid 6 to mid 7 ghz speeds happening anytime soon. it's not even worth discussing his or any of his "sources" words because his source could be some demon on his shoulder or the word translation of whatever colorful fart he had that morning.

A/// · Jun 2, 2023

ondma said:
Maybe it is the long rumored Royal Core????

Is there any confirmation this is even remotely real? The only people I've seen discuss it have been exist50 and gedda with me when I asked. Its like it's a fanciful tale.

A/// · Jun 2, 2023

Exist50 said:
He's been full of it. Pretty much every number he ever throws out is straight BS. Occasionally he gets some detail right, but it's pointless when the only people who can find the needle in the haystack already know.

The first time I heard of mlid was about 5 years ago accused of deleting videos or blog posts where he got the info wrong. Just about anyone here can do what he does better and not look like they've got a bowling pin stuck sideways int o their jaw.

SiliconFly · Jun 3, 2023

dullard said:
Note: the portion in red is NOT what MLID said. So the rest of your math is not what he claims either.

He specifically claimed (without any evidence) of 30% to 40% ST faster than Raptor Lake not Meteor Lake (and not even Raptor Lake Refresh). That would be 30% to 40% ST with 2 node shrinks and a new core (3 node shrinks if you count skipping Intel 3). That would require Arrow Lake turbo to be roughly, mid 6 GHz to mid 7 GHz depending on IPC gains.

I'm not saying MLID is correct, but you took his rumors way past even what MLID claims.

A very interesting tweet from Raichu regarding MLID leaks:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1664585493953249283

(Rumor chain: MLID->wccftech->Hassan Mujtaba->Raichu)

In short, raichu simply says, it's fake.

SiliconFly · Jun 3, 2023

And one more exciting bit of info that i came across recently:

AMD's Infinity Fabric is substrate-based (outdated tech). And Intel Foveros is interposer-based. Meaning, Foveros is light-years ahead of Infinity Fabric.

Interestingly, Foveros has up to 10X power-efficiency and very low latency compared to Infinity Fabric. Intel also has nextgen improved foveros too in the pipeline for ARL & LNL. Whereas, AMD has no such solution for Zen 5. I think AMD is in a lot of trouble. It appears MTL has managed to unleash the beasts Intel had in its unused arsenal.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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