Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

H433x0n · Dec 11, 2023

maddie said:
posterity.

How about waiting until the 14th? If efficiency improves by 15% at 45W they’ve arguably won client mobile until Strix. If Intel gets MTL efficiency within margin of error of Phoenix they likely hold onto their market share for 2024.

They’ve got more volume, more resources for supporting OEMs and the ability to sell cheap lower end RPL dies.

Abwx · Dec 11, 2023

H433x0n said:
How about waiting until the 14th? If efficiency improves by 15% at 45W they’ve arguably won client mobile until Strix. If Intel gets MTL efficiency within margin of error of Phoenix they likely hold onto their market share for 2024.

They’ve got more volume, more resources for supporting OEMs and the ability to sell cheap lower end RPL dies.

The leak say 12k pts in CB R23 at 40W, same score as a 13700H@45W and a 7840U@30W, that fits in a +33% error margin, the 7840U@30W does exactly 12385 pts, so that put it at barely 28W for 12k pts.

H433x0n · Dec 11, 2023

Abwx said:
The leak say 12k pts in CB R23 at 40W, same score as a 13700H@45W and a 7840U@30W, that fits in a +33% error margin, the 7840U@30W does exactly 12385 pts, so that put it at barely 28W for 12k pts.

Let’s wait until the 14th.

The 13700H is a 45W process being compared against a 28W MTL lower down the stack. It’s replacing the 1360P, not the 13700H.

adroc_thurston · Dec 11, 2023

https://twitter.com/x/status/1734409922710995348

yeah it's bad.
next.

gdansk · Dec 11, 2023

I'll wait a bit more. Laptops are all over the place based on cooling solutions and vendor-chosen power limits and boost times.
Plus that's a cutdown variant so maybe more cores will help.

adroc_thurston · Dec 11, 2023

gdansk said:
Plus that's a cutdown variant so maybe more cores will help.

They're comparing the same tier SKUs with the exact same (well MTL has 2 more Atoms, they're on the SOC tile) core count.

gdansk · Dec 11, 2023

adroc_thurston said:
They're comparing the same tier SKUs with the exact same (well MTL has 2 more Atoms, they're on the SOC tile) core count.

So 2 more P cores and potentially 600MHz won't help relative to AMD?

adroc_thurston · Dec 11, 2023

gdansk said:
So 2 more P cores and potentially 600MHz won't help relative to AMD?

The point it the thing being a perf regression over RPL.
ISO core count (-ish).
I haven't mentioned AMD anywhere, MTL ain't touching HWK1.

H433x0n · Dec 11, 2023

gdansk said:
So 2 more cores won't help relative to AMD?

Doesn’t matter, every leak that’s not favorable will get spun to favor a narrative in the brand war™

Khato · Dec 11, 2023

adroc_thurston said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1734409922710995348
yeah it's bad.
next.

What's bad exactly? The minor single core performance regression? Since in all other points the Ultra5-125H is showing better performance than the i5-13500H despite running well above its target TDP.

adroc_thurston · Dec 11, 2023

Khato said:
What's bad exactly?

It's a dieshrink tied to an overall a lot more expensive product that showcases a perf regression over the cheapness that is RPL.

H433x0n · Dec 11, 2023

Khato said:
What's bad exactly? The minor single core performance regression? Since in all other points the Ultra5-125H is showing better performance than the i5-13500H despite running well above its target TDP.

The iGPU performance looks good but even that I’m pretty skeptical of until we get proper data.

No clue why 65W was chosen either, at 65W the 13700H would appear to be close to Phoenix in efficiency and it’d be totally misleading. In this context it’s okay since it means you can dunk on MTL though.

Saylick · Dec 11, 2023

adroc_thurston said:
It's a dieshrink tied to an overall a lot more expensive product that showcases a perf regression over the cheapness that is RPL.

Seems like the iGPU will be its saving grace then.

adroc_thurston · Dec 11, 2023

Saylick said:
Seems like the iGPU will be its saving grace then.

Not a particularly relevant one since Intel primarily lacks on CPU oomph/W and battery life and MTL solves kinda none of that.

FlameTail · Dec 12, 2023

So MLID was right about MTL efficiency?

Philste · Dec 12, 2023

FlameTail said:
So MLID was right about MTL efficiency?

Nobody knows of these are ES or final Silicon. Let alone the fact that 65W is probably too high to really compare the CPUs. MTL might bring 95% of that performance at 35W, where RPL only brings half of it. It's like Comparing Phoenix and Rembrandt at 95W. Both pretty much Max out at 65W and below, so at 95W the performance is roughly the same.

Saylick · Dec 12, 2023

adroc_thurston said:
Not a particularly relevant one since Intel primarily lacks on CPU oomph/W and battery life and MTL solves kinda none of that.

If so, I'm sure some one out there will highlight the dual encoders/decodes and cite it as a reason to buy MTL over HWK.

Abwx · Dec 12, 2023

Philste said:
MTL might bring 95% of that performance at 35W

That s impossible, 95% of the perf@65W is obtained in the 56-57W range, there s a curve posted by HXL, and it s apparently 95%@57W when looking at the slope from 28 to 65W.

H433x0n · Dec 12, 2023

Abwx said:
That s impossible, 95% of the perf@65W is obtained in the 56-57W range, there s a curve posted by HXL, and it s apparently 95%@57W when looking at the slope from 28 to 65W.

The graph with no y axis and has no baseline comparison to 13500H.

Khato · Dec 12, 2023

adroc_thurston said:
It's a dieshrink tied to an overall a lot more expensive product that showcases a perf regression over the cheapness that is RPL.

Heh, and how much more expensive is it? I have my popcorn ready and waiting.

MTL regression on single thread performance versus RPL is indeed unfortunate. But last I checked RPL was already well on top in that particular metric anyway. It's efficiency (and by extension MT performance) where RPL is a bit behind what AMD has to offer. Where MTL lands in that pursuit? Well, hopefully you need only wait a few more days now. (Can at least hope that review samples are provided in advance of launch.)

H433x0n · Dec 12, 2023

Khato said:
MTL regression on single thread performance versus RPL is indeed unfortunate.

There’s MTL benchmark leaks that show the opposite with the Core 9 185H ST performance in line with expectations. In general ST performance will depend on clocks since IPC is relatively the same.

Abwx · Dec 12, 2023

H433x0n said:
The graph with no y axis and has no baseline comparison to 13500H.

The comparison with the 13500H is irrelevant in respect of what i said, wich is that this 4 + 8 need 56-57W to perform 95% of its 65W perf.

The graphs say that perf increase by 47.1% when power increase by 132%, that is , from 28W to 65W, from here you can extract the power/frequency curve in this segment :

Power = F^(ln(2.32)/ln(1.471)) = F^2.18

So at 0.95x the frequency power will be :

P = 65 x (0.95^2.18) = 65 x 0.894 = 58.1W

Obviously this chip was tailored to reach high TDPs, assuming this curve is accurate, wich is no surprise since current 4 + 8 can reach way higher powers than 65W.

igor_kavinski · Dec 12, 2023

Intel Ultra 5 125H and Ryzen 7 7840HS tested at 65W: Intel with higher iGPU score but falls short in CPU tests - VideoCardz.com

Intel Core Ultra 5 125H at 65W shows lower CPU score and higher iGPU score than AMD Ryzen 7 7840HS Intel’s upcoming Core Ultra 100H series is just around the corner. Intel is going to show off its new laptop series called Meteor Lake in two days. This will introduce a new name for the […]

videocardz.com

Seems Intel is back in the game, at least for the iGPU.

One primary reason for getting a Radeon laptop just went whoosh!

My condolences, @adroc_thurston

FlameTail · Dec 12, 2023

igor_kavinski said:
One primary reason for getting a Radeon laptop just went whoosh!

yeah screw AMD with their good APUs being barely available and mostly relegated to high end gaming laptops which have a dGPU anyways.

Intel will be our saviour thanks to their immense volume and influence.

Obligatory /s

gdansk · Dec 12, 2023

igor_kavinski said:
Intel Ultra 5 125H and Ryzen 7 7840HS tested at 65W: Intel with higher iGPU score but falls short in CPU tests - VideoCardz.com

Intel Core Ultra 5 125H at 65W shows lower CPU score and higher iGPU score than AMD Ryzen 7 7840HS Intel’s upcoming Core Ultra 100H series is just around the corner. Intel is going to show off its new laptop series called Meteor Lake in two days. This will introduce a new name for the […]

videocardz.com

Seems Intel is back in the game, at least for the iGPU.

One primary reason for getting a Radeon laptop just went whoosh!

My condolences, @adroc_thurston

View attachment 90294

If you scroll up a bit, he already posted this and says it means MTL is a flop.
In either case it's probably best to wait for testing at MTL's target power limits.
And if it's like other Intel GPUs it'll kill in benchmarks then flail around in actual games.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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