Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

maddie · Mar 5, 2024

DavidC1 said:
Nope. I'm saying most of Intel's achievements in the past have been greatly boosted by their massive process lead, and "legendary" achievements like Conroe and Sandy Bridge would have looked lot less impressive without it. In the early days, the Pentium Pro lead was nearly entirely attributed to their process.

Now they are fully exposed since their process team can't save them anymore.

I have to wonder how the landscape would have been today if laws opened up the x86 ISA so more than 3 vendors could use it(AMD/Intel/Via). The massive lawsuit against Transmeta and more recently Nvidia is quite telling.

History tells us that Andy Grove wanted to "crush AMD" but it was Gordon Moore that convinced him not to. AMD got their x86 license after a big battle too.

Just joking, no big deal.

Hulk · Mar 5, 2024

DavidC1 said:
Nope. I'm saying most of Intel's achievements in the past have been greatly boosted by their massive process lead, and "legendary" achievements like Conroe and Sandy Bridge would have looked lot less impressive without it.

Yes, but one of Intel's achievements was their process lead. I gave them credit for it then just as I give TSMC credit for it now.

Let's not re-invent history. Conroe was a huge leap. It was the beginning of tick-tock, a strategy that was quite ambitious and fruitful for quite a few years. As Darth Vader might say they brought "order" to the CPU release cycle for a bit. It was fun because there was continual architecture/node advancements.

Zen is what I consider AMD's "Conroe" moment and just as important in the microprocessor landscape. The rise of TSMC is another big moment in this timeline we love to follow, study, analyze, and discuss.

FlameTail · Mar 5, 2024

Hulk said:
Yes, but one of Intel's achievements was their process lead. I gave them credit for it then just as I give TSMC credit for it now.

As Darth Vader might say they brought "order" to the CPU release cycle for a bit. It was fun because there was continual architecture/node advancements.

Aaaah... Intel Foundry, the chosen one, who must bring balance to the Semiconductor.

Zen is what I consider AMD's "Conroe" moment and just as important in the microprocessor landscape. The rise of TSMC is another big moment in this timeline we love to follow, study, analyze, and discuss.

Perhaps 5 years later, we'll be looking back at now, and see Qualcomm's "Zen" moment in the Snapdragon X Elite.

DavidC1 · Mar 5, 2024

Hulk said:
Yes, but one of Intel's achievements was their process lead. I gave them credit for it then just as I give TSMC credit for it now.

Yes, and if they succeed with Intel Foundry they won't have that advantage anymore. We'll get to see how Intel manages the design when on a completely level field.

They were never known for top designs. The consensus among many were they were a manufacturing company that used their prowess to push CPUs.

If you read about the history of the Pentium Pro and how it reversed the big RISC machine push, it talks about how Intel introduced the 0.35u PPro along with the expected 0.5um one. That was when the decisive lead started, which wasn't lost until 14nm. Actually the PPro was great in that until then there were doubts whether OoOE was even possible on an x86, but it was really about the process.

The combination resulted in a stunning result where the Integer performance eclipsed the RISC competition, when it was previously unthinkable.

Imagine expecting 18A to arrive in 2025, except we also see 14A variants at the same time.

Hulk · Mar 5, 2024

DavidC1 said:
Yes, and if they succeed with Intel Foundry they won't have that advantage anymore. We'll get to see how Intel manages the design when on a completely level field.

They were never known for top designs. The consensus among many were they were a manufacturing company that used their prowess to push CPUs.

If you read about the history of the Pentium Pro and how it reversed the big RISC machine push, it talks about how Intel introduced the 0.35u PPro along with the expected 0.5um one. That was when the decisive lead started, which wasn't lost until 14nm. Actually the PPro was great in that until then there were doubts whether OoOE was even possible on an x86, but it was really about the process.

The combination resulted in a stunning result where the Integer performance eclipsed the RISC competition, when it was previously unthinkable.

Imagine expecting 18A to arrive in 2025, except we also see 14A variants at the same time.

Unfortunately I'm am old enough to have lived through the Pentium Pro era and the one before that and the one before that back in the '70's. I have a keen perspective from first hand "being there" of all of these processors as I was reading all of the magazines, building computers, and studying the scene then as intently as I am today.

The Pentium Pro was initially supposed to be only for "workstation class" machines but was so performant that the architecture was adapted to desktop in the form of the Pentium II. It was the death knell for the Power PC and less than a decade later Apple would move to x86.

Intel didn't become the 800lb gorilla because they forced manufacturers to buy their products (they did that later) but because they had the most performant parts up until the Athlon, regained the lead with Conroe, and held it until probably around Zen 3 or so. Now it's a horse race between AMD and Intel. As I wrote above I lived though this over the last 40 years and no amount of revisionist reading is going to change my mind as to the reality I witnessed.

Kaloi48 · Mar 5, 2024

cortexa99 said:
Ouch, well, after reconsideration I guess there may be something wrong, the source "ithome.com" that japanese author 北森八雲 cited is the witnesses of Yuuki_AnS's twitter message, but the site ithome.com didn't provide any screenshot of that, also the ARL-S spec and naming scheme are fishy. It's either ithome read something wrongly or brought up old data and made them into a "news", even the japanese author has confused by these weird leak.

Yuuki_AnS confirmed he'd never posted that ARL-S spec:
https://t.bilibili.com/905025733270700032

cortexa99 · Mar 5, 2024

Kaloi48 said:
Yuuki_AnS confirmed he'd never posted that ARL-S spec:
https://t.bilibili.com/905025733270700032

Got it. Saw his clarification few hours ago. Comments said he didn't got any ARL-S datasheet yet.

igor_kavinski · Mar 5, 2024

Hulk said:
Now it's a horse race between AMD and Intel.

You sure Intel is using a horse?

igor_kavinski · Mar 5, 2024

@Hitman928

Regarding MTL vs. RPL, see this:

Processor Comparison - Head 2 Head

Intel Core i5-13500H vs Intel Core Ultra 7 155H - Benchmarks, Tests and Comparisons

www.notebookcheck.net

Raptor RAM config:

Meteor RAM config:

In 7-Zip 18.03 - 7-Zip 18.03 Single Thread 4 runs,

Ultra 7 155H 90 W / 60 W scores 5539
i5-13500H 95 W / 45 W scores 5695

This despite 155H having lower latency RAM than the 13500H.

Review URLs:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Minisforum-Venus-Series-NPB5-review-The-mini-PC-with-Raptor-Lake-H-aka-an-Intel-Core-i5-13500H-and-USB4.738288.0.html

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Honor-MagicBook-Pro-16-2024-A-multimedia-laptop-with-a-165-Hz-IPS-panel-and-RTX-4060.808536.0.html

An "Ultra" 7 CPU should not be beaten by a previous gen Core i5 in ANY benchmark.

Hitman928 · Mar 5, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
@Hitman928

Regarding MTL vs. RPL, see this:

Processor Comparison - Head 2 Head

Intel Core i5-13500H vs Intel Core Ultra 7 155H - Benchmarks, Tests and Comparisons

www.notebookcheck.net

Raptor RAM config:

View attachment 94883

Meteor RAM config:

View attachment 94884

In 7-Zip 18.03 - 7-Zip 18.03 Single Thread 4 runs,

Ultra 7 155H 90 W / 60 W scores 5539
i5-13500H 95 W / 45 W scores 5695

This despite 155H having lower latency RAM than the 13500H.

Review URLs:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Minisforum-Venus-Series-NPB5-review-The-mini-PC-with-Raptor-Lake-H-aka-an-Intel-Core-i5-13500H-and-USB4.738288.0.html

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Honor-MagicBook-Pro-16-2024-A-multimedia-laptop-with-a-165-Hz-IPS-panel-and-RTX-4060.808536.0.html

An "Ultra" 7 CPU should not be beaten by a previous gen Core i5 in ANY benchmark.

Sure, but I was talking strictly about IPC, not overall performance at any power level.

Schmide · Mar 5, 2024

Hulk said:
Intel didn't become the 800lb gorilla because they forced manufacturers to buy their products (they did that later) but because they had the most performant parts up until the Athlon, regained the lead with Conroe, and held it until probably around Zen 3 or so. Now it's a horse race between AMD and Intel. As I wrote above I lived though this over the last 40 years and no amount of revisionist reading is going to change my mind as to the reality I witnessed.

I too was there at the turn of the century when intel became the gorilla. There was probably more lawsuit and trade drama then than there was during the time leading up the the FTC judgment.

intel did everything in their power to keep competitors down. Between the shenanigans trying to buy digital, to withholding information on legal disputes, chipset wars, intel threatening to withhold chips from big players like Compaq. Most people don't know about Intergraph, that's quite a story.

Corollary - Rambus tried to dismantle the memory segment durring this time while intel was basically the sole licensee.

The only decades where there weren't drama was maybe the 80s and post 2010

SiliconFly · Mar 5, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
You sure Intel is using a horse?

No. They use turtles that can TurboBoost upto 800W!

igor_kavinski · Mar 5, 2024

Schmide said:
Corollary - Rambus tried to dismantle the memory segment durring this time while intel was basically the sole licensee.

And only shot themselves in the foot!

igor_kavinski · Mar 5, 2024

SiliconFly said:
No. They use turtles that can TurboBoost upto 800W!

Their mistake was not designing a cool cup holder connected to the CPU heatsink. People would be grateful to their CPU for keeping their coffee warm!

FlameTail · Mar 5, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Their mistake was not designing a cool cup holder connected to the CPU heatsink. People would be grateful to their CPU for keeping their coffee warm!

Not just warm the coffee, but boil liters of water.

FlameTail · Mar 5, 2024

FlameTail said:
Not just warm the coffee, but boil liters of water.

Hey that's like a decent idea.

The heat generated from the CPU is used to boil water, which turns the water to steam, which in turn rotates a dynamo to generate electricity.

Has nobody done this before?

It would mean that instead of heat energy being wasted, you can make some use of the heat.

DavidC1 · Mar 5, 2024

FlameTail said:
Hey that's like a decent idea.

The heat generated from the CPU is used to boil water, which turns the water to steam, which in turn rotates a dynamo to generate electricity.

Has nobody done this before?

It would mean that instead of heat energy being wasted, you can make some use of the heat.

Water boils at 100C, but with the heat source at 100C, it'll take quite long to get it to boil, not to mention it is damaging to the silicon long-term.

It is also questionable to the viability/efficiency of the application.

Schmide · Mar 5, 2024

DavidC1 said:
Water boils at 100C, but with the heat source at 100C, it'll take quite long to get it to boil, not to mention it is damaging to the silicon long-term.

It is also questionable to the viability/efficiency of the application.

Water boils at 212F BTW but that is at sea level. More in a pressure vessel.

Imperial joules are what really matter. BTUs contain thousands of them.

Stick with the plan, there are joules in thes CPUs

coercitiv · Mar 5, 2024

FlameTail said:
Not just warm the coffee, but boil liters of water.

FlameTail said:
Hey that's like a decent idea.

You don't need a forum for your inner monologue, you know.

Saylick · Mar 5, 2024

DavidC1 said:
Water boils at 100C, but with the heat source at 100C, it'll take quite long to get it to boil, not to mention it is damaging to the silicon long-term.

It is also questionable to the viability/efficiency of the application.

Simple. Just connect the CPU to a heat exchanger and use it to warm up water in the water heater.

Glo. · Mar 5, 2024

When the topic about an Intel CPU architecture turns to discussion about boiling water, using those CPUs - you know that you are in the right place. Meme out of a meme.

Hitman928 · Mar 5, 2024

FlameTail said:
Hey that's like a decent idea.

The heat generated from the CPU is used to boil water, which turns the water to steam, which in turn rotates a dynamo to generate electricity.

Has nobody done this before?

It would mean that instead of heat energy being wasted, you can make some use of the heat.

There are always solutions for data centers and more solutions being worked on.

Data center heat recovery and reuse | Danfoss

For many data centers, utilizing surplus heat represents a massive potential in the journey towards a decarbonizing operations. With Danfoss, you get the advanced technologies needed to capture the heat generated in data centers and reuse it in heating systems.

www.danfoss.com

For home use, even a gamers PC, I don’t think there’s near enough heat to make it worth it to try and recover the waste energy once you factor in conversion losses, footprint, and cost.

poke01 · Mar 5, 2024

Its amazing that people think Arrow lake S is a dud. I don't think it will be and it will be very efficient.

jpiniero · Mar 5, 2024

poke01 said:
Its amazing that people think Arrow lake S is a dud. I don't think it will be and it will be very efficient.

I don't think it's gonna be much faster in games than Raptor Lake.

DavidC1 · Mar 5, 2024

Schmide said:
Water boils at 212F BTW but that is at sea level. More in a pressure vessel.

100 Celcius = 212 Fahrenheit.

So you don't understand metric. American right?

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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