Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

Vattila · Oct 6, 2019

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

igor_kavinski · Apr 24, 2024

jpiniero said:
Maybe a 32 core Zen 4c?

It says in there "up to 16 cores" but the important part to me is V-cache. Epyc has a lot more of that. I hope this means that we see a "somewhat" affordable 1GB cache CPU at around the $1000 price point. Less would obviously be awesome but I don't see why they would sell it cheap.

biostud · Apr 24, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
It says in there "up to 16 cores" but the important part to me is V-cache. Epyc has a lot more of that. I hope this means that we see a "somewhat" affordable 1GB cache CPU at around the $1000 price point. Less would obviously be awesome but I don't see why they would sell it cheap.

If anything you'll see 3D cache on both CCDs

jpiniero · Apr 24, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
It says in there "up to 16 cores"

That is just speculation from Videocardz.

igor_kavinski · Apr 24, 2024

jpiniero said:
That is just speculation from Videocardz.

Hmm...you may be right about the Zen4c part since 8004 is also Zen4c-based. I think they are not going to put more than 24 cores on there otherwise they would get bandwidth starved. So maybe up to 48 threads with DDR5-8000 best case scenario?

igor_kavinski · Apr 24, 2024

@adroc_thurston Why didn't you tell us about this 4004 thingy? I mean, could have dropped a hint...

adroc_thurston · Apr 24, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Why didn't you tell us about this 4004 thingy?

Just a new branding for server Raphael that's been out for a while.
Granite Ridge-based ones are Q2'25 iirc.

igor_kavinski · Apr 24, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
Just a new branding for server Raphael that's been out for a while.

BUT BUT BUT AM5???

adroc_thurston · Apr 24, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
BUT BUT BUT AM5???

It's AM5 too.
Gigabyte et al had boards for a while.
Not news?

igor_kavinski · Apr 24, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
Gigabyte et al had boards for a while.

Really? What do you mean for a while? They were cancelled?

Why is AMD bringing Epyc to AM5 mobos?

Markfw · Apr 24, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Really? What do you mean for a while? They were cancelled?

Why is AMD bringing Epyc to AM5 mobos?

Just a guess , but if you could have an EPYC at lower power and platform cost for 16 cores and 8 cores, it would make sense.

adroc_thurston · Apr 24, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Really? What do you mean for a while? They were cancelled?

Server Raphael is old news.
This is the new branding for it.
Nothing changes otherwise.

Joe NYC · Apr 24, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
Just a new branding for server Raphael that's been out for a while.
Granite Ridge-based ones are Q2'25 iirc.

I have been arguing that AMD needs AM5 servers. Especially since Patrick Kennedy showed what a killer solution it is. You said this market (below Siena, Sorano) was too small to matter:

Page 128 - Discussion - Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)

Page 128 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

Page 128 - Discussion - Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)

Page 128 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

Granted, it is hard to predict what AMD marketing will do, this time AMD marketing hit it out of the ballpark.

BTW, I am hoping that a proper Windows Server will come along with these CPUs.

adroc_thurston · Apr 24, 2024

Joe NYC said:
You said this market (below Siena, Sorano) was too small to matter:

It is, it's pretty much a gigabyte/supermicro driver effort iirc.

Joe NYC · Apr 24, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
It is, it's pretty much a gigabyte/supermicro driver effort iirc.

Supermicro, Gigabyte have some nice boards for this market, and official Windows Server support will help sell more of them, if AMD properly packages the drivers, for official support.

They will be extra sweet with Zen 5. AMD could garner more attention to these by releasing a variant with V-Cache on both CCDs

thigobr · Apr 24, 2024

I am not convinced they would add V-Cache for both CCDs but one can dream. Would be a nod to the old 939 Opterons and their 1MB L2 vs the entry Athlon X2 3800+ of that time.

I run a 5750G with an AsrockRack board as a home server and it's quite capable and stable little machine! Few years down the road this would be a nice upgrade!

dr1337 · Apr 24, 2024

If this is real I almost would bet on it being C dies instead of normal chips. But if it comes with V-cache then maybe not? If the normal raphael IO die has the ability to run at server standards, why would AMD wait so long to make this a product for EPYC customers? It's too odd, either this isn't real (most likely), or its unique from everything else released on AM5.

I think a lot about how AMD could possibly market a 32c AM5 CPU that has much lower single core performance. It would be really weird having a 9990x that is way slower in games/many other tasks than a 9950x. Having AM5 chips branded as EPYC but still consumer facing might be the right difference they need to keep away the confusion.

I just can't imagine there are tons of pro customers out there who want a dual channel memory, dual v-cache CCD part. Wouldn't the 7950X3D already fill 90% of the role or Genoa-X be way better? Doesn't add up from the business perspective.

SteinFG · Apr 25, 2024

It would be cool if those chips are not just rebrands of existing ones. Would be nice to see dual "X3D" CCDs on a sigle chip, maybe 1-2 "Zen4c" CCDs

StefanR5R · Apr 25, 2024

Ever since the AM5 platform was launched and nobody but Asus qualified their mainboards for ECC RAM, I have been wondering what's up with Asrock et al. Maybe the prospect of AM5 EPYCs explains part of that.

Joe NYC said:
I have been arguing that AMD needs AM5 servers. Especially since Patrick Kennedy showed what a killer solution it is. You said this market (below Siena, Sorano) was too small to matter:

The market for Xeon E3 class servers and appliances is certainly for real — but on the other hand it most likely is not a market at which vendors rake in the big bucks.

AMD already have the hardware for this market for many years now.¹ But then doing all the validation work would evidently have been too much for what is to gain — so far.
________
¹) The desktop CPUs have got certain RAS features in them, for how long now?, most prominently ECC capable memory controllers. OK, maybe the southbridges which can be had for AM4 and AM5 are not quite ideal for this market; OTOH AMD are putting this very southbridge into the current Threadripper platform.

SteinFG said:
It would be cool if those chips are not just rebrands of existing ones.

For the small-socket servers segment, I wouldn't expect anything substantially better than least-effort destop/mobile derived CPUs from either x86 CPU maker.

Joe NYC · Apr 25, 2024

StefanR5R said:
For the small-socket servers segment, I wouldn't expect anything substantially better than least-effort destop/mobile derived CPUs from either x86 CPU maker.

AMD already has up to 16 full cores, while Intel has 4 cores in E3 (?).

There is no reason to smoke crack and talk about Zen 4c, when the opportunity is already enormous with regular Zen 4 chips.

So I agree, minimal effort with desktop derived CPUs is just fine for the first entry into this market.

Markfw · Apr 25, 2024

Joe NYC said:
AMD already has up to 16 full cores, while Intel has 4 cores in E3 (?).

There is no reason to smoke crack and talk about Zen 4c, when the opportunity is already enormous with regular Zen 4 chips.

So I agree, minimal effort with desktop derived CPUs is just fine for the first entry into this market.

The E3 series by Intel has up to 22 cores. Like here:

Intel Xeon E5-2699 v4 2.20GHz 22-Core LGA 2011/Socket R-3 Server Processor SR2JS

Processor Type: Intel XeonManufacturer: IntelModel Number: E5-2699 v4Socket Type: LGA 2011-v3/Socket R3Number of Cores: 22Threads Count: 44Base Frequency: 2.20 GHzBus Speed: 9.6 GT/sCache Size: 55 MB SmartCacheThermal Design Power: 145 WMaximum Memory Supported: 1.5 TB (dependent on RAM...

techmikeny.com

Joe NYC · Apr 25, 2024

Markfw said:
The E3 series by Intel has up to 22 cores. Like here:

Intel Xeon E5-2699 v4 2.20GHz 22-Core LGA 2011/Socket R-3 Server Processor SR2JS

Processor Type: Intel XeonManufacturer: IntelModel Number: E5-2699 v4Socket Type: LGA 2011-v3/Socket R3Number of Cores: 22Threads Count: 44Base Frequency: 2.20 GHzBus Speed: 9.6 GT/sCache Size: 55 MB SmartCacheThermal Design Power: 145 WMaximum Memory Supported: 1.5 TB (dependent on RAM...

techmikeny.com

I think you linked E5, which is another category, of more full featured servers. E3 is the intro category.

BTW, I was having hard time finding the current list of E3 SKUs. It seems that Intel has not refreshed these for some time.

Markfw · Apr 25, 2024

Joe NYC said:
I think you linked E5, which is another category, of more full featured servers. E3 is the intro category.

BTW, I was having hard time finding the current list of E3 SKUs. It seems that Intel has not refreshed these for some time.

sorry, I googled for e3-2699 v4 and got this. I didn't look carefully at how bad google did on matching. ebay did the same thing.

Joe NYC · Apr 25, 2024

Markfw said:
sorry, I googled for e3-2699 v4 and got this. I didn't look carefully at how bad google did on matching. ebay did the same thing.

It seems that Intel has moved away from those categories, and these are there current intro server CPUs (still pathetic vs. Zen 4 AM5 processors):

StefanR5R · Apr 25, 2024

The competition to AM5 EPYCs would primarily be Intel's LGA-1700 platform with C266 and C262 chipsets and the Xeon E-2400 CPU series and perhaps a few other qualified Raptor Lake and Alder Lake CPUs. (Xeon D is basically for telco appliances, Xeon Bronze is the big socket with octa-channel RAM.)

LightningZ71 · Apr 25, 2024

There's room in the market in this segment for an I/O heavy small server chipset that takes the 16 PCIe 5 lanes for the GPU and multiplexes out 48-64 lanes at up to PCIe 4.0 for a 2x oversubscribe. That could drive 4-6 slots for add in cards.

Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

Senior member

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Lifer

Platinum Member

Lifer

Platinum Member

Lifer

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member

Platinum Member

Platinum Member

Platinum Member

Platinum Member

Senior member

Senior member

Senior member

Elite Member

Platinum Member

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member

Platinum Member

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member

Platinum Member

Elite Member

Golden Member