Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

Abwx · Apr 30, 2024

Geddagod said:
Similar battery life between MTL and PHX/HWK for these laptop models it looks like.

Jeezus the cope is sad. Not everything is a conspiracy.

Battery is 75Wh, so explain us why at full load PHX@41W last 1h26 while MTL@34W last 1h17.

What i m saying is that the numbers of the benches for MTL are not at 34W as they state but at more power than PHX since the latter has 15% longer battery life at full load, so including the idle power, wich should be around 5W, MTL is benched at 20% higher power than PHX and this help increasing the score by about 10% all while stating that it use basically 7W less.

So much for the cope, if you cant spot such gross misleadings then what is the point of discussing technology if you cant even master the 4 basic arithmetic ops.?.

controlflow · May 1, 2024

Geddagod said:
Jeezus the cope is sad. Not everything is a conspiracy.

That user is in the AMD earnings thread posting about how the only possible explanation for AMD losing market segment share in client this quarter is "anti competitive practices" and that this includes viral marketing and money paid to create "fake reviews" such as this one from Hardware Canucks because there is no way that MTL can compete with the "unrivaled" supremacy of PHX. They also allege that Hardware Canucks "heavily forged" or fabricated the numbers in exchange for money. That is quite literally what they posted, no exaggeration on my part.

Some people just seem wired for conspiracy thinking and wild imaginations.

Abwx · May 1, 2024

controlflow said:
That user is in the AMD earnings thread posting about how the only possible explanation for AMD losing market segment share in client this quarter is "anti competitive practices" and that this includes viral marketing and money paid to create "fake reviews" such as this one from Hardware Canucks because there is no way that MTL can compete with the "unrivaled" supremacy of PHX. They also allege that Hardware Canucks "heavily forged" or fabricated the numbers in exchange for money. That is quite literally what they posted, no exaggeration on my part.

Some people just seem wired for conspiracy thinking and wild imaginations.

Lol..

Here the "34W" MTL Zenbook with OLED screen, it start Cinebench at 67W for the full laptop and do so during almost 50% of the time before throttling at 45W wich amount to 34W at the CPU level, but almost half the bench has been done at about 50W CPU power, so much for your deffamation, that s all what is left for those who trust things at face value.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Asus-Zenbook-14-OLED-review-The-1-2-kg-subnotebook-with-120-Hz-OLED-and-Core-Ultra-7.805236.0.html

controlflow · May 1, 2024

Abwx said:
Lol..

Here the "34W" MTL Zenbook with OLED screen, it start Cinebench at 67W for the full laptop and do so during almost 50% of the time before throttling at 45W wich amount to 34W at the CPU level, but almost half the bench has been done at about 50W CPU power, so much for your deffamation, that s all what is left for those who trust things at face value.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Asus-Zenbook-14-OLED-review-The-1-2-kg-subnotebook-with-120-Hz-OLED-and-Core-Ultra-7.805236.0.html

That laptop is the UX3405MA, the one in the video is the Q425MA.
Nothing in that link supports any of the other unhinged claims you made or proves that the Hardware Canucks review is "fake" or "forged" data in exchange for money.
I didn't do anything to defame you, you do that yourself.

igor_kavinski · May 1, 2024

So buying an MTL laptop is like crapshoot. You MAY get one with lower power consumption but from most of the reviews so far, it seems you will get something badly configured by the OEM. Great work, Intel!

igor_kavinski · May 1, 2024

MSI CLAW gets firmware and GPU driver update enabling higher performance - VideoCardz.com

MSI Claw sees massive performance updates thanks to Intel’s new drivers Finally, some good updates for the Claw. The Claw has already seen price cuts of up to 25% from its original price. This gaming handheld simply isn’t up to the task of competing with AMD-powered handhelds, which offer...

videocardz.com

Look forward to getting this used or when it drops below $250. It should if the recommended MSI game settings are "LOW".

LOW price for LOW quality gaming experience. Seems only fair.

poke01 · May 1, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
MSI CLAW gets firmware and GPU driver update enabling higher performance - VideoCardz.com

MSI Claw sees massive performance updates thanks to Intel’s new drivers Finally, some good updates for the Claw. The Claw has already seen price cuts of up to 25% from its original price. This gaming handheld simply isn’t up to the task of competing with AMD-powered handhelds, which offer...

videocardz.com

Look forward to getting this used or when it drops below $250. It should if the recommended MSI game settings are "LOW".

LOW price for LOW quality gaming experience. Seems only fair.

At that point get a used Asus Rog Z1 Extreme or even a used Steam Deck.

SiliconFly · May 1, 2024

Hitman928 said:
Only thing I'll say about that review is their battery life test for "internet browsing" is ridiculous. I've commented on it before but it's probably the worst browsing test out there. Anyway, here are some additional reviews comparing both AMD and Intel models that show things in a bit different light. Make of it as you will.

2024 Asus Zenbook 14 OLED (UM3406HA): DOES AMD BURY INTEL?

Asus Zenbook 14 OLED (UM3406HA): https://goto.walmart.com/c/1441847/1398372/16662?sourceid=imp_000011112222333344&veh=aff&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.walmart.com%2Fi...

www.youtube.com

They're pretty much on par in battery life with some minor differences here and there. But performance wise, when compared to MTL, the competition might have a slight edge. RWC is not exactly known for strong ST performance (or even MT afaik).

reggie_fils_aime · May 1, 2024

One thing I'm still seeing with MTL laptops is their general lack of availability in big box stores vs. anything else. Almost no variety at my local big box retailers at this point feels weird.

dullard · May 1, 2024

reggie_fils_aime said:
One thing I'm still seeing with MTL laptops is their general lack of availability in big box stores vs. anything else. Almost no variety at my local big box retailers at this point feels weird.

Get used to it. Intel will be limited on their latest nodes for the next couple of years. (1) Not enough wafer capacity. (2) Specifically for Meteor Lake, Intel is just opened up their large packaging fab #9 for any chips with advanced packaging needs--meaning they didn't have the ability to ramp up Meteor Lake chips very quickly.

reggie_fils_aime · May 1, 2024

dullard said:
Get used to it. Intel will be limited on their latest nodes for the next couple of years. (1) Not enough wafer capacity. (2) Specifically for Meteor Lake, Intel is just opened up their large packaging fab #9 for any chips with advanced packaging needs--meaning they didn't have the ability to ramp up Meteor Lake chips very quickly.

This feels very extremely less than ideal for intel, lol

Ghostsonplanets · May 1, 2024

reggie_fils_aime said:
One thing I'm still seeing with MTL laptops is their general lack of availability in big box stores vs. anything else. Almost no variety at my local big box retailers at this point feels weird.

As Gelsinger and David have said, Intel is limited at packaging. They said that they're losing opportunities with MTL due to it and expect higher ramp at H2.

We'll probably only see MTL at true volume in 2025 with Arrow Lake U.

reggie_fils_aime said:
This feels very extremely less than ideal for intel, lol

TSMC to rescue. Lunar and Arrow Mobile leverage TSMC for basically everything sans the base Foveros tile.

maddie · May 1, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
As Gelsinger and David have said, Intel is limited at packaging. They said that they're losing opportunities with MTL due to it and expect higher ramp at H2.

We'll probably only see MTL at true volume in 2025 with Arrow Lake U.

TSMC to rescue. Lunar and Arrow Mobile leverage TSMC for basically everything sans the base Foveros tile.

You probably don't mean this, but it reads as if this packaging deficit arose accidentally.

Atrocious planning is what we're seeing. I for one would like to know how this could happen in such a Corp, as Intel, and be accepted so easily.

Abwx · May 1, 2024

controlflow said:
That laptop is the UX3405MA, the one in the video is the Q425MA.

Nothing in that link supports any of the other unhinged claims you made or proves that the Hardware Canucks review is "fake" or "forged" data in exchange for money.

I didn't do anything to defame you, you do that yourself.

Lol and re Lol...

You didnt even notice that the sample "tested" by Hardware Canucks has 8% higher Cinebench score than the laptop tested at NBC, wich mean that it use even more power than the NBC one, that is about 18-20% more power, so we can estimate the average CPU power at 50W at Hardware Canucks.

Indeed at NBC the battery life at full load is about 2h while at Hardware Canucks it s 1H17, and 50W CPU power correlate very well with 1h17 battery life on a 75Wh battery, so that s even worse for you, you just exposed further your inability to analyse the numbers.

reggie_fils_aime · May 1, 2024

I don't see how it's acceptable for Intel's shareholders, either. When 90% of the product portfolio is old, power hungry, and getting surpassed by every competitor in normal use-cases... They need a huge turnaround lest they go the way of G5 PPC.

Ghostsonplanets · May 1, 2024

reggie_fils_aime said:
I don't see how it's acceptable for Intel's shareholders, either. When 90% of the product portfolio is old, power hungry, and getting surpassed by every competitor in normal use-cases... They need a huge turnaround lest they go the way of G5 PPC.

Cost structure of tiled designs with expensive packaging and latest nodes are an issue. I think the usual Intel pricing that can reach from Premium to Low-End is no more. At least for some years.

But they genuinely have ok products and higher volume at Mobile than AMD. So it's not that big of an issue. And Lunar Lake should offer a compelling and novel enough experience in Laptops to be a nice story from Intel. Panther Lake is also coming late 25, so they're trying to iterate quickly.

Joe NYC · May 1, 2024

Ghostsonplanets said:
As Gelsinger and David have said, Intel is limited at packaging. They said that they're losing opportunities with MTL due to it and expect higher ramp at H2.

Yes, Intel said they are limited by packaging now. But it is also worth speculating how much higher the capacity is to fabricate the silicon dies above this limit. Internally and how much of additional silicon Intel ordered from TSMC for other tiles.

Ghostsonplanets said:
We'll probably only see MTL at true volume in 2025 with Arrow Lake U.

TSMC to rescue. Lunar and Arrow Mobile leverage TSMC for basically everything sans the base Foveros tile.

You would think that Intel would be ramping MTL faster and sooner. But there is another number that Intel has floated: 40 million AI PCs in 2024. That would be 40 million of MTL+ARL+LNL in the market of ~270 million CPUs. Which also seems quite low.

igor_kavinski · May 1, 2024

Yeah if AI takes off, Intel will basically be letting ARM eat its lunch and just watch in dismay and utter helplessness coz they won't be able to produce enough tiled laptop chips with NPUs...

Joe NYC · May 1, 2024

maddie said:
You probably don't mean this, but it reads as if this packaging deficit arose accidentally.

Atrocious planning is what we're seeing. I for one would like to know how this could happen in such a Corp, as Intel, and be accepted so easily.

I think it may just be moving from the lab (where Foveros has lived for a decade) to volume production may have had some hiccups.

Ghostsonplanets · May 1, 2024

On the Arrow Lake - U matter, I wonder if ARL-U will also inherits the N4 GFX tile in addition to the i3 Compute tile. Would give a nice boost to efficiency. It's probably only something eithet Bionic or Exist could answer.

Also, Intel could transition the N4 GFX tile to N4C later in 2025 to reduce size and increase yields at lower costs. Would certainly help with ARL-U/S cost structure.

Joe NYC said:
You would think that Intel would be ramping MTL faster and sooner. But there is another number that Intel has floated: 40 million AI PCs in 2024. That would be 40 million of MTL+ARL+LNL in the market of ~270 million CPUs. Which also seems quite low.

When comparing to TGL that shipped >100M in a bit more than a year and Alder Lake which shipped >50M, MTL numbers indeed are on the very low side.

Still, 40M should be nothing to snub at. Specially in a recovering market and given LNL and ARL should be a small part of it for this year. Intel will need to increase packaging capabilities soon due to the ramp-up of more tiled designs.

igor_kavinski · May 1, 2024

I think Foveros is too complex to manufacture and they are probably having to do it very slowly with a lot of steps involved or the final assembled die failing validation and then removing the tiles and putting them on a new base tile again.

Ghostsonplanets · May 1, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
Yeah if AI takes off, Intel will basically be letting ARM eat its lunch and just watch in dismay and utter helplessness coz they won't be able to produce enough tiled laptop chips with NPUs...

Will certainly help Arm if so, but Intel is still a giant with huge capilarity at all levels of the market. For Arm to eat their lunch it would need years and volume to match Intel.

Besides, Intel will ramp up packaging capabilities and simplify their tiled design. So Arm designs won't have much of a window of opportunity.

Philste · May 1, 2024

New Information from Twitter:

It will be:
Core Ultra 9 285K
Core Ultra 9 275
Core Ultra 7 265K
Core Ultra 7 255
Core Ultra 5 245K
Core Ultra 5 240

Leaves space for the rumored 32E-Core refresh Version as 290K/295K

igor_kavinski · May 1, 2024

They should just shorten that to U9, U7 and U5.

Something like U9-285K.

Ghostsonplanets · May 1, 2024

Philste said:
View attachment 98207 View attachment 98208
Dunno if the 1st one is about LNL or ARL, but I guess also ARL.

So it will be:
Core Ultra 9 285K
Core Ultra 9 275
Core Ultra 7 265K
Core Ultra 7 255
Core Ultra 5 245K
Core Ultra 5 240

Leaves space for the rumored 32E-Core refresh Version as 290K/295K

I really think you should delete the screenshots. Just the text, without mentioning the account, is fine.

And, yes, it's for ARL-S.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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