Question AMD Phoenix/Zen 4 APU Speculation and Discussion

[uzzi38]

I can finally make this thread.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1519669375283957760

Phoenix is indeed RDNA3. My advice to everyone: treat the old APU rumours as being out of date.

 

[jpiniero]

Strix Halo is going to be mainly used in $2k+ MBP wannabees. Maybe there will be a pricey SFF.

 

[Shivansps]

The competition is really the lowest of the low end dGPUs.

My guess is that once AMD goes chiplets, that you will only mostly see the basic IGP on desktop. Perhaps they will do better IGP models, but those will command a couple hundred premium on top. Maybe fill the void once sub-$400 dGPUs are gone.

At least those won't be compromising on dGPU gaming performance like Phoenix does.

But low end gpus not longer exist anymore because they just dont want to, there used to be a time when we had an entire lineup of gpus that started on something like the HD 5450, HD 6450, the R5 230, the GT710/730, the last gpus of that class was the GT 1030/RX 550. You cant tell me a $150-200 gpu is low end really. If we continue this trend in 10 years a $500-600 gpu would be the new low end.

Now we have things like the GTX 1630 that im petty sure the only reason it exist it is because it is a inventory clearing of the chips that were reserved for low end Quadros. And the RX 6400 / RX 6500 XT that in a normal world they would have been unnacceptable at anything over $100.

 

[moinmoin]

I have said this before, but smaller systems are experiencing a surge in popularity and Strix Halo would be perfect for that.

Manufacturers can still offer systems with Strix Halo just fine, it just won't be socketed (so no chance for it to come to AM5).

 

[Heartbreaker]

Strix Halo is going to be mainly used in $2k+ MBP wannabees. Maybe there will be a pricey SFF.

And it would be solder in only, so they will never be in the DIY market.

 

[DrMrLordX]

And it would be solder in only, so they will never be in the DIY market.

The day may come where some buyers would be willing to buy board + SoC if it had the right features. In fact I'd bet that some people would do it now. The question is whether any board OEM would be willing to take the risk of stocking expensive AMD SoCs like Strix Halo, soldering it to a board, and selling it at a markup to DiY builders. And the answer to that is currently "no".

 

[Asterox]

Youtuber did a more or less R5 8500G gaming Live session lasting over two hours.Four games were tested at 1080p low settings.We didn't see the Cinebench result, because the live video broke but that's less important anyway.As we see, 5200mhz DDR5 memory was used.

AMD Ryzen 5 8500G Gaming Test - Valorant, Fortnite, COD Warzone, CS2

AMD Ryzen 5 8500G Gaming Test - Valorant, Fortnite, COD Warzone, CS2

www.youtube.com

It is interesting to see how the CPU behaves in gaming Four Zen4c CPU cores do not hit above 3.7ghz. Two Zen4 CPU cores hits the 4.9ghz.According to AMD, R5 8500G/Zen4 max Boost CPU Clock is up to 5.0GHz.

Marked in yellow, it is probably some kind of average CPU frequency. We see seven values, but we know that we have only six CPU cores.

Obviously the CPU was quite busy at this point.


Classic situation, the game obviously doesn't use a lot of CPU cores. That's why the two Zen4 CPU cores hit 4.9ghz.

 

[igor_kavinski]

8700G with overclocked RAM: https://www.techspot.com/news/101743-amd-ryzen-7-8700g-tested-overclocked-ddr5-memory.html

 

[dr1337]

I think MS and Sony made it a point that AMD not sell a high end APU for competition reasons.

Or maybe it was time limited. Don't sell over x GPU power for 5 years...

I really think it comes down to memory bandwidth, don't forget the consoles are using much wider busses with GDDR6. There have been lengthy discussions about this in the Strix thread and people universally agree that AMD is implementing more cache for the iGPU, in one form or another, to solve this problem.

I for one see such implicit value of a L4/shared LLC on an APU that it boggles my mind why it has taken AMD so long to implement it. I think even Cezanne let alone Phoenix would have benefited greatly from 16mb of LLC. Maybe there is some hard problem that has taken them a lot of time to solve for unifying GPU and CPU L4. And I can see how a large amount of cache only for the GPU can be a waste of transistors, they're probably trying to avoid diminishing returns.

 

[Shivansps]

Youtuber did a more or less R5 8500G gaming Live session lasting over two hours.Four games were tested at 1080p low settings.We didn't see the Cinebench result, because the live video broke but that's less important anyway.As we see, 5200mhz DDR5 memory was used.

AMD Ryzen 5 8500G Gaming Test - Valorant, Fortnite, COD Warzone, CS2

AMD Ryzen 5 8500G Gaming Test - Valorant, Fortnite, COD Warzone, CS2

www.youtube.com

View attachment 93057

It is interesting to see how the CPU behaves in gaming Four Zen4c CPU cores do not hit above 3.7ghz. Two Zen4 CPU cores hits the 4.9ghz.According to AMD, R5 8500G/Zen4 max Boost CPU Clock is up to 5.0GHz.

Marked in yellow, it is probably some kind of average CPU frequency. We see seven values, but we know that we have only six CPU cores.

Obviously the CPU was quite busy at this point.
View attachment 93059

Classic situation, the game obviously doesn't use a lot of CPU cores. That's why the two Zen4 CPU cores hit 4.9ghz.
View attachment 93060

Of the 8500G would be interesting to see much much bandwidth impacts the performance because if it can get that sort of performance with 16GB single channel DDR5-5200/5600 then we are talking.

 

[Shivansps]

I also found this

 

[Det0x]

Too bad AMD used paste under the IHS which also explain the bad temperatures for so little power used









The die size seems to be around X=11.5mm and Y=160mm.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I've been subscribed to Christo for years, excellent channel for APUs and ultra budget testing.

 

[Asterox]

Blah, drunk error=delete!

 

[Gideon]

The day may come where some buyers would be willing to buy board + SoC if it had the right features. In fact I'd bet that some people would do it now. The question is whether any board OEM would be willing to take the risk of stocking expensive AMD SoCs like Strix Halo, soldering it to a board, and selling it at a markup to DiY builders. And the answer to that is currently "no".

There actually already is a small market providing some mobos like that, but I agree it's a tiny niche.


This Minisforum ITX MoBo (BD 770i) caught my interest at some point for a console-like PC

It comes with:

• a soldered 7945-HX (16 core, Zen 4, 55-75W TDP)
• a PCIe Gen5 x16 GPU Slot
• 2x PCIe Gen5 x4 M.2 slots (direct to the CPU)
• 2.5G Ethernet
• integrated cooling (also for the twin PCIE 5.0 SSDs)
• price: $519.00 USD (sold out currently though).

Considering how much similar AM5 ITX board alone costs, it's a great deal. Yeah 5200 Mhz SO-DIMMs are a lot slower and a 7945-HX is no 7950X, but the difference can be surprisingly small at times.

In it's current form it makes little sense for any rig that also needs a GPU, as it would bloat the build size to Fractal Terra / Ridge level case anyway - meaning an upgradable desktop-platform makes more sense.

Still, if something like this would instead be sold with:

• a Strix Halo future derivative
• 2x CAMM2 memory slots (remember these could still be quad-channel even with 2 slots!)
• 2x M.2 PCIe 5 slots (connected directly to the CPU, mind you!)

In the typical slim mini-pc format. It would seem a very endicing option.

But like i said, a niche of a niche. An afterthought of the laptop market at best

 

[Abwx]

There actually already is a small market providing some mobos like that, but I agree it's a tiny niche.


This Minisforum ITX MoBo (BD 770i) caught my interest at some point for a console-like PC

It comes with:

• a soldered 7945-HX (16 core, Zen 4, 55-75W TDP)
• a PCIe Gen5 x16 GPU Slot
• 2x PCIe Gen5 x4 M.2 slots (direct to the CPU)
• 2.5G Ethernet
• integrated cooling (also for the twin PCIE 5.0 SSDs)
• price: $519.00 USD (sold out currently though).

Considering how much similar AM5 ITX board alone costs, it's a great deal. Yeah 5200 Mhz SO-DIMMs are a lot slower and a 7945-HX is no 7950X, but the difference can be surprisingly small at times.

In it's current form it makes little sense for any rig that also needs a GPU, as it would bloat the build size to Fractal Terra / Ridge level case anyway - meaning an upgradable desktop-platform makes more sense.

Still, if something like this would instead be sold with:

• a Strix Halo future derivative
• 2x CAMM2 memory slots (remember these could still be quad-channel even with 2 slots!)
• 2x M.2 PCIe 5 slots (connected directly to the CPU, mind you!)

In the typical slim mini-pc format. It would seem a very endicing option.

But like i said, a niche of a niche. An afterthought of the laptop market at best

AMD should solve this issue by releasing some 105WTDP/142WPPT 7950 non X SKU that could be set at 65WTDP/88W PPT eco mode, personaly i wouldnt be at ease with a soldered expensive CPU.

 

[Glo.]

There actually already is a small market providing some mobos like that, but I agree it's a tiny niche.


This Minisforum ITX MoBo (BD 770i) caught my interest at some point for a console-like PC

It comes with:

• a soldered 7945-HX (16 core, Zen 4, 55-75W TDP)
• a PCIe Gen5 x16 GPU Slot
• 2x PCIe Gen5 x4 M.2 slots (direct to the CPU)
• 2.5G Ethernet
• integrated cooling (also for the twin PCIE 5.0 SSDs)
• price: $519.00 USD (sold out currently though).

Considering how much similar AM5 ITX board alone costs, it's a great deal. Yeah 5200 Mhz SO-DIMMs are a lot slower and a 7945-HX is no 7950X, but the difference can be surprisingly small at times.

In it's current form it makes little sense for any rig that also needs a GPU, as it would bloat the build size to Fractal Terra / Ridge level case anyway - meaning an upgradable desktop-platform makes more sense.

Still, if something like this would instead be sold with:

• a Strix Halo future derivative
• 2x CAMM2 memory slots (remember these could still be quad-channel even with 2 slots!)
• 2x M.2 PCIe 5 slots (connected directly to the CPU, mind you!)

In the typical slim mini-pc format. It would seem a very endicing option.

But like i said, a niche of a niche. An afterthought of the laptop market at best

Expect things like this to start appearing more and more.

Both from AMD AND Intel.

P.S. I find it funny that when I was writing this what, 2 years ago, nobody believed me, that this is the direction market would go(mobile on desktop, soldered solutions). Now everybody appears to be acknowledging this as reality .

 

[Shivansps]

I would definately go for something like a 40CU APU, thats petty much my 6700XT but integrated. Something like that would carry me 3 or 4 years, minimum. Whiout the size, heat or noise of the 6700XT + 5800X.

 

[Heartbreaker]

There actually already is a small market providing some mobos like that, but I agree it's a tiny niche.


This Minisforum ITX MoBo (BD 770i) caught my interest at some point for a console-like PC

It comes with:

• a soldered 7945-HX (16 core, Zen 4, 55-75W TDP)
• a PCIe Gen5 x16 GPU Slot
• 2x PCIe Gen5 x4 M.2 slots (direct to the CPU)
• 2.5G Ethernet
• integrated cooling (also for the twin PCIE 5.0 SSDs)
• price: $519.00 USD (sold out currently though).

Considering how much similar AM5 ITX board alone costs, it's a great deal. Yeah 5200 Mhz SO-DIMMs are a lot slower and a 7945-HX is no 7950X, but the difference can be surprisingly small at times.

In it's current form it makes little sense for any rig that also needs a GPU, as it would bloat the build size to Fractal Terra / Ridge level case anyway - meaning an upgradable desktop-platform makes more sense.

Still, if something like this would instead be sold with:

• a Strix Halo future derivative
• 2x CAMM2 memory slots (remember these could still be quad-channel even with 2 slots!)
• 2x M.2 PCIe 5 slots (connected directly to the CPU, mind you!)

In the typical slim mini-pc format. It would seem a very endicing option.

But like i said, a niche of a niche. An afterthought of the laptop market at best

Sure it's nice.

The real issue would be what they would have to charge for that MB with the soldered in chip. You could probably buy a MB/CPU, and RX 7800XT for the price of the APU and MB...

 

[maddie]

Still, if something like this would instead be sold with:

• a Strix Halo future derivative
• 2x CAMM2 memory slots (remember these could still be quad-channel even with 2 slots!)
• 2x M.2 PCIe 5 slots (connected directly to the CPU, mind you!)

Bolded. What is the actual bit width of the 2 slot quad channel? Quad channel 128b is not really an improvement on dual channel 128b.

 

[FlameTail]

Why don't AMD create a new motherboard socket standard, with a socket large enough to have an APU+RAM on the same substrate akin to how Apple does it?

One benefit of putting RAM on CPU substrate instead of motherboard is that it decoupled the RAM from the motherboard. Which means the motherboard makers don't have to foot the cost of putting the RAM traces, which becomes costly especially with APUs using 256+ bit buses.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Expect things like this to start appearing more and more.

For certain users, it makes sense. If they:

1). Only ever use one CPU per motherboard generation
2). Never upgrade RAM
3). Want a low or midrange graphics solution (e.g. don't want to spend $600+ on a dGPU)

You could hit someone's needs in one go. The only area where I see room for improvement is that a lot of DiYers still overclock/tune their RAM. Or they go for premium RAM that is overclocked out of the box (XMP/DOCP/EXPO). That might change if CPUs/SoCs in the future started shipping with on-package RAM ala Apple SoCs.

 

[MrTeal]

Too bad AMD can't release a cool 8 core Zen3 X3D chip with a quad channel interface and N22 class GPU under the heatspeader for all those poor suckers who bought X399 expecting an upgrade path.

 

[Gideon]

2). Never upgrade RAM

CAMM2 is also a possibility. It supports both DDR5 and LPDDR5/5X (making it socketable)

JEDEC Publishes New CAMM2 Memory Module Standard | JEDEC

www.jedec.org

RAM is upgradable for the Mobo above too.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

A new handheld: Orange Pi Neo
7840U + Manjaro OS
Videocardz
Up to 32 GB LPddr5-7500
Up to 2 TB SSD
50 WH battery
Unknown price.

edit: fixed

 

[FlameTail]

LPddr5-7500U

The what?