Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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[poke01]

Now that I think about it, Donan is likely the code name for the identifier T8132. Since Coll is A17P and its identifier is T8130.

The iPad Pro OLED is the only device leaked so far with that identifier attached to it.

 

[Mopetar]

Also this is an announcement event, so release could be late May early June.

For a completely new product they'll announce early because they can't lose sales for something they don't have on the market, but for almost anything else they're typically taking orders for something that will ship in the next two to four weeks.

On the other hand, if it were going on sale the day of the event, someone somewhere should be receiving shipments already. Even if they're only sending to their own stores first, I'd be surprised that some hasn't leaked that yet. Apple isn't nearly as tight-lipped as they'd like to be.

I don't really see the announcing something that wouldn't ship by the end of the month. If it's longer, they'd just delay the announcement until they were closer to the ship date. Even with a May 30th release date, it would still make for an 8 month interval between M3 and M4.

Perhaps we get something like an M3X where it's not an M3 but is not an M4 either.

 

[Eug]

Perhaps we get something like an M3X where it's not an M3 but is not an M4 either.

Well, some might argue that M3 (8-core CPU, 8/10-core GPU) would already effectively be A17X, like A12X/Z (8-core CPU, 7/8-core GPU). M3X would be A17XX?

BTW, I wonder how much it cost Apple to move A5 from 45 nm to 32 nm. I also wonder how much it cost Apple to split A9 between Samsung 14 nm and TSMC 16 nm.

 

[SpudLobby]

RE: they’d wait: I agree they ideally would wait until June, you’re missing that we’re discussing May 7 because Gurman brought that date up. So for whatever reason they may well announce it, and if it’s the M4 in the iPads, it’s *possible* they have a slight bump until release due to TSMC node scheduling being tight. And as I explained, that isn’t totally unprecedented for Apple. It may be a bit weirder if they’re doing it as their own event to be fair, but we don’t know what else they may announce.

 

[SpudLobby]

Perhaps we get something like an M3X where it's not an M3 but is not an M4 either.

This would be the most interesting but also terrible scenario. I get that business is business but muddying the lineup with an M3x that’s just an N3E port would be crazy annoying honestly. Hope this isn’t the case

 

[SpudLobby]

By contrast an A17 non-pro chip that’s on N3E but is just the A17 Pro ported, or an A18 that is just the A17 Pro ported to N3E (largely anyway) is fine to me, the phones having more weird leeway especially now is nbd but the M lineup going to an x chip as a stopgap would be pretty annoying to me and ruin the clarity they have.

 

[repoman27]

The M2 Air was unveiled at WWDC and launched a month later. People exaggerate how close to release Apple is sometimes, it varies. The key with them is when they do officially release, it isn’t a paper launch. Whereas with other vendors you’ll see “releases” sometimes and it’s a paper launch.

iPhones also have had delays before for the Pro or Max models.


“In fact, Apple isn't launching all four iPhone 12 models at the same time. Only the iPhone 12 and iPhone 12 Pro will be available to preorder on Friday, Oct. 16, with deliveries a week later on Oct. 23.The iPhone 12 Mini and iPhone 12 Pro Max will go on sale Nov. 6, and start shipping on Nov. 13.“

This isn’t rare for Apple. They might do 2-6 week delays for a real launch from announcement but when it releases, it *hits in volume*.

What you say is true, but WWDC is announced well in advance because people are traveling from all over the world to attend in person, and it's a multi-day event focused on developer relations, not new hardware launches. They just use the keynote for that purpose because so many people watch it.

You also cited the iPhones 12 which were released in the fall of 2020 during the height of the pandemic and the M2 MacBook Air which was badly delayed by COVID lockdowns in China. I'll also throw in the spring iPad event from 2021 and M1 iMac launch which also had long lead times until product availability and sketchy "beginning in the second half of May" launch dates.

This is a prerecorded event with no in-person component that was announced two weeks in advance. Apple can release a video like this whenever they want, so the new products they announce will probably be available to order online after the event airs or possibly the next day, and available in stores on one of the following Fridays in May.

 

[SpudLobby]

What you say is true, but WWDC is announced well in advance because people are traveling from all over the world to attend in person, and it's a multi-day event focused on developer relations, not new hardware launches. They just use the keynote for that purpose because so many people watch it.

Sure. I agree it’s less weird to have a product that’s released a month or later after announcement when you have other purposes I guess. But we’re going off Gurman’s rumor here and at least in subsets of announcements this really isn’t that rare.

You also cited the iPhones 12 which were released in the fall of 2020 during the height of the pandemic and the M2 MacBook Air which was badly delayed by COVID lockdowns in China. I'll also throw in the spring iPad event from 2021 and M1 iMac launch which also had long lead times until product availability and sketchy "beginning in the second half of May" launch dates.

I cited part of the iPhone 12 lineup and mind you this does not necessarily have to do with COVID, because they’ve done this before in 2018 with the XR as well for a September 12th event:

“Pre-orders began on September 14, 2018, and the devices went on sale on September 21.”

But the XR:
“October 19, 2018, with the official release on October 26, 2018”

Come on guys.

I do agree for a single-purpose event to have a delay makes less sense but overanalyzing and overhonoring Apple’s commitment to corporate cleanliness in release cycles is silly. We do not have a very consistent dataset.

 

[SpudLobby]

“Well the only time they delay more than precisely two weeks is if it’s a new product announcement or it’s part of another broader announcement, or other products are released”

Like yeah it’s not a terrible rule but it also quickly becomes laughable when the margins we’re talking about here are… another two weeks on top of that.

OLED on the iPad with a new haptic feedback Magic Pen or whatever and an M4 also potentially makes it less ridiculous

 

[SpudLobby]

Actually, we’re all offtrack here. If Gurman speculates a larger Neural Engine from M2 -> M4 is half the show due to new AI features it can take (further if not unique qualitative stuff) advantage of, the big problem with this is Apple’s iOS 18 is what is supposed to deliver exactly that on the software side.

WWDC is in June.

And before someone says “APPLE DOES USE AI DUDE” I am aware of that but it simply isn’t as extensive as what’s coming in iOS 18 at all with assistants for notes/reminders (could be big for art with the pencil or note taking too), Safari assistant, a Siri upgrade, etc.



So that is strange.

 

[repoman27]

Actually, we’re all offtrack here. If Gurman speculates a larger Neural Engine from M2 -> M4 is half the show due to new AI features it can take (further if not unique qualitative stuff) advantage of, the big problem with this is Apple’s iOS 18 is what is supposed to deliver exactly that on the software side.

WWDC is in June.

And before someone says “APPLE DOES USE AI DUDE” I am aware of that but it simply isn’t as extensive as what’s coming in iOS 18 at all with assistants for notes/reminders (could be big for art with the pencil or note taking too), Safari assistant, a Siri upgrade, etc.



So that is strange.

Maybe not.

Apple does these types of spring launches because the announcement might not fit into the WWDC keynote, or they want to get the products out ahead of the conference. I think this is true on both counts with these new iPads. Too much to talk about, and a lot of it isn't focused on things developers care about. The "Let Loose" event will be about the hardware, and software will take a back seat. If the M2 is going to be the torch bearer for the new neural engine and AI features though, Apple wants it to be available before WWDC, so developers can have one in hand when the first iOS / iPadOS 18 betas drop. The WWDC keynote will focus on the software, all the new APIs and OS features that can leverage the hardware that has already been announced or is clearly in the pipeline.

 

[SpudLobby]

Yeah it is possible they’ll split it and show the new features at WWDC. Of course the iOS 18 launch will be in the fall anyways either way so

 

[Doug S]

The M2 Air was unveiled at WWDC and launched a month later. People exaggerate how close to release Apple is sometimes, it varies. The key with them is when they do officially release, it isn’t a paper launch. Whereas with other vendors you’ll see “releases” sometimes and it’s a paper launch.

iPhones also have had delays before for the Pro or Max models.


“In fact, Apple isn't launching all four iPhone 12 models at the same time. Only the iPhone 12 and iPhone 12 Pro will be available to preorder on Friday, Oct. 16, with deliveries a week later on Oct. 23.The iPhone 12 Mini and iPhone 12 Pro Max will go on sale Nov. 6, and start shipping on Nov. 13.“

This isn’t rare for Apple. They might do 2-6 week delays for a real launch from announcement but when it releases, it *hits in volume*.

Apple also isn't shy about having new products for which they can't fully satisfy demand, or at least they weren't in the past. They've got better as the production scale as increased over the years, but the shelves in Apple stores used to be empty after a new iPhone launch. If you didn't get your order in within a few hours of when they started taking orders you might see instead of next week your ship date is a month or two out. Even now you might see particular SKUs like "purple iPhone 14 Pro Max 256 GB" be a month out while other SKUs are readily available, because they can only guess exactly the relative product mix customers will demand and when they're wrong temporary shortages result until they tweak production targets to satisfy the demand for things they underestimated.

They may choose when to launch based on "we want to be able to ship 1 million on day one and 2 million in the first month" (or whatever, I have no idea what volume iPad Pro sells) and when they can forecast that they pull the trigger on the announcement and announce a ship date that will make that goal come true.

They may not even be gated by Apple Silicon, and none of this has to do with TSMC at all. They are using those fancy dual stack OLEDs no one else is so it is quite possible that will be the biggest constraint on how many they can ship over the next few months.

 

[SpudLobby]

Apple also isn't shy about having new products for which they can't fully satisfy demand, or at least they weren't in the past. They've got better as the production scale as increased over the years, but the shelves in Apple stores used to be empty after a new iPhone launch. If you didn't get your order in within a few hours of when they started taking orders you might see instead of next week your ship date is a month or two out. Even now you might see particular SKUs like "purple iPhone 14 Pro Max 256 GB" be a month out while other SKUs are readily available, because they can only guess exactly the relative product mix customers will demand and when they're wrong temporary shortages result until they tweak production targets to satisfy the demand for things they underestimated.

They may choose when to launch based on "we want to be able to ship 1 million on day one and 2 million in the first month" (or whatever, I have no idea what volume iPad Pro sells) and when they can forecast that they pull the trigger on the announcement and announce a ship date that will make that goal come true.

They may not even be gated by Apple Silicon, and none of this has to do with TSMC at all. They are using those fancy dual stack OLEDs no one else is so it is quite possible that will be the biggest constraint on how many they can ship over the next few months.

I agree with that, Doug, though it’s possible the demand gate is incorporated into the delay, e.g. entirely possible the 1 million threshold is June. They’re not shy about that either.

This whole thing is kinda ridiculous. They absolutely could do one month (no more though). They may not.

More interesting is: is it the M4.

 

[poke01]

I agree with that, Doug, though it’s possible the demand gate is incorporated into the delay, e.g. entirely possible the 1 million threshold is June. They’re not shy about that either.

This whole thing is kinda ridiculous. They absolutely could do one month (no more though). They may not.

More interesting is: is it the M4.

The iPad Pro is a popular device. Many people and businesses buy them. It could easily sell a million in a month depending on stock.

As for the chip at this point going by the identifiers it’s anything but the current M3 chip. Apple refreshes the iPad Pro every 18 months. The last refresh was November 2022 and so it’s been around 18 months.

There’s no point beating the bush, only 6 more days and if the M4 is released next week, it will be a fun week.

 

[SpudLobby]

The iPad Pro is a popular device. Many people and businesses buy them. It could easily sell a million in a month depending on stock.

Sure.

As for the chip at this point going by the identifiers it’s anything but the current M3 chip. Apple refreshes the iPad Pro every 18 months. The last refresh was November 2022 and so it’s been around 18 months.

There’s no point beating the bush, only 6 more days and if the M4 is released next week, it will be a fun week.

 

[repoman27]

We're definitely getting into the weeds here, but several of these numbers were brought up in relationship to whether or not a new SoC introduced at the event on Monday could be manufactured on N3E or not.

While there is no conclusive answer to that question, there are some very clear upper and lower bounds regarding the timing. We know TSMC N3E entered volume production some time between the first week of October and the last week of December 2023. We also know Apple's product announcement is scheduled for May 7. Given that WWDC is scheduled to start on June 10, the most likely window for new product availability is between May 7 and May 31. It is incredibly unlikely that Apple would plan an announcement for May 7 and release products earlier than that or after the final Friday in May given the timing of WWDC. That leaves a production window for a device with an N3E based SoC of not more than 8 months (totally doable) but possibly as short as 5 months (probably not doable). We're gonna have to wait and see, and Apple may not make any mention of the manufacturing process they're using other than referring to it as "3-nanometer".

As for iPad sales figures, unit sales for calendar Q2 have been hovering around 12 million, ticking up to around 14 million in Q3, and of course new product introductions like this tend to give those numbers a boost. The vast majority of iPads sold in any given quarter are going to be the less expensive models based on the A-series SoCs. I would expect the new iPad Pros to account for roughly 20% of the mix during the period directly following the launch though, hence my estimate of a 14-week inventory target of 2.5 million units (20% of 12.5 million).

 

[mikegg]

The phrase "whatever you're smoking" is a colloquialism to indicate that a person finds a claim so wild or absurd as to believe you must be under the influence of drugs to make it. It's hardly unfriendly in and of itself and they're are considerably more rude ways of conveying that sentiment.

But the post you linked is over three and a half years old. What kind of grudge are you carrying that you would even dredge something like that up to try to prove a point in the first place?

Also, in reading that post and what was being replied to, it doesn't really make you look any better. We're about 18 months away from being able to actually evaluate your hypothetical (or whatever you would care to call it) of Apple hitting 50% PC market share. I don't think that's going to happen. They've only been above 20% in the US in a single quarter based on data from a quick Google search.

So I think it's quite fair for the other poster to have used that particular phrasing. Your prediction was wildly speculative and if you had bet money on it you would have lost. Even if that weren't the case, your own post was no less inflammatory in terms of language used, so I would not consider you to be some innocent victim receiving misdirected derision. I don't care to read back through three year old posts to see who started it, but it's my opinion that any curt replies you received were deserved.

You're sounding more and more ridiculous.

 

[mikegg]

Well I guess I got that part wrong too, but less wrong than the people pushing '18 months' based on two data points influenced by covid and TSMC process issues

Say that louder!

 

[mikegg]

Perhaps we get something like an M3X where it's not an M3 but is not an M4 either.

I don't understand why people here have such a hard time believing that Apple could release a new core in an M chip rather than an A chip in special circumstances.

A18 Pro is already in production at TSMC because Apple always starts production of iPhone chips in Spring. Therefore, the design work for A18 Pro has long been finished which means given enough early planning, Apple could have gotten the M4 ready by May. It's not farfetched given that they planned these things years in advance and N3B was known to be a transitional node.

Combine the fact that Apple is behind in GenAI applications and stock investors have not rewarded AAPL because they're so behind, it's not surprising to me that Apple is being aggressive with the M4 generation.

 

[SpudLobby]

I don't understand why people here have such a hard time believing that Apple could release a new core in an M chip rather than an A chip in special circumstances.

Oh, I totally believe this is possible. They’re not wedded to a core order of release.

My more interesting question is: does Apple even have juice left in the tank on perf/GHz? Pace has been slow albeit they still lead by 10-15% over like the X4 or Nuvia.

But the actual performance/power curve for ST with Apple is even further ahead and is what is still so impressive, even if they’re pushing it too high, it’s still a different league.

The 8 Gen 3’s X4 matches the A14 in SpecInt and SpecFP (or + 5%) at nearly 40% more power. That’s N5 vs N4P too, and LPDDR4x vs LPDDR5x wrt power and perf impacts.

On GB5, it’s [8 Gen 3] more like +7% and basically M1-caliber (not sure on power though but likely similar vs A14, 4.1 vs 5.7 watts was the difference).

Obviously like AMD and Intel can’t even get that kind of single thread power compression for now, and I’d be surprised if Lunar Lake substantially beat it (the curve, not absolute perf) — and if it does just match that kind of sub-10W curve from QC or Apple without blowing it out, doing so on N3B with 140mm^2 is just sad lol.

 

[poke01]

Obviously like AMD and Intel can’t even get that kind of single thread power compression for now, and I’d be surprised if Lunar Lake substantially beat it (the curve, not absolute perf) — and if it does just match that kind of sub-10W curve from QC or Apple without blowing it out, doing so on N3B with 140mm^2 is just sad lol.

What’s the size of the base M3 die?

 

[Eug]

What’s the size of the base M3 die?

I summarized the die size estimates for the various M series chips here:

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M3 is supposed to be around 146-ish mm2 on N3B. >140 anyway. That could suggest a hypothetical M3 on N3E might be over 150 mm2.

 

[repoman27]

What’s the size of the base M3 die?

I summarized the die size estimates for the various M series chips here:

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M3 is supposed to be around 146-ish mm2 on N3B. >140 anyway. That could suggest a hypothetical M3 on N3E might be over 150 mm2.

My initial estimates based on the die images provided by Apple and measurements of IP blocks shared with the A17 Pro were as follows:

M3: 12.64 mm x 10.67 mm = 135 mm²
M3 Pro: 12.69 mm x 14.96 mm = 190 mm²
M3 Max: 20.40 mm x 21.03 mm = 429 mm²

I'm pretty sure these are a lot closer than the ones Eug sourced, but they are still based on A17 Pro measurements provided by Revegnus (@Tech_Reve). I haven't had the opportunity to verify them yet though.

 

[Eug]

My initial estimates based on the die images provided by Apple and measurements of IP blocks shared with the A17 Pro were as follows:

M3: 12.64 mm x 10.67 mm = 135 mm²
M3 Pro: 12.69 mm x 14.96 mm = 190 mm²
M3 Max: 20.40 mm x 21.03 mm = 429 mm²

I'm pretty sure these are a lot closer than the ones Eug sourced, but they are still based on A17 Pro measurements provided by Revegnus (@Tech_Reve). I haven't had the opportunity to verify them yet though.

I didn't do any calculations myself, but FWIW, the 146 number was published by Tom's Hardware, referencing a tweet from @Frederic_Orange who counted 415 M3 dies for a 3 nm wafer:

Apple Spent $1 Billion to Tape Out New M3 Processors: Analyst

Very few companies can afford a platform like Apple's M3.

www.tomshardware.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1719753967683383594

Perhaps going about it this way overestimates the size, but I did not attempt to work out the math, since I wouldn't know how to calculate the unused area of the wafer.

Anyhow, if it truly is 135 mm2 on N3B, then that could put a hypothetical N3E version of M3 at well over 140 mm2. I personally won't attempt to guess the size of an M4 on N3E.