Info HWUB: Big Native Vs DLSS vs FSR comparison

[Heartbreaker]

It is a pity if it really does not work, because for example in Hogwarts legacy, with my graphic card and settings the FPS outdoors can drop to 80, but indoors can go over 130. I do not need that. I would be happy with 100 and save energy instead. I need Frame generation ON, because without it would drop to 40 fps outside, which does not look very good, and it is also outside the range of my monitor.

Tweak some other setting to bring up your outdoor FPS without frame generation.

 

[coercitiv]

It is a pity if it really does not work, because for example in Hogwarts legacy, with my graphic card and settings the FPS outdoors can drop to 80, but indoors can go over 130. I do not need that. I would be happy with 100 and save energy instead. I need Frame generation ON, because without it would drop to 40 fps outside, which does not look very good, and it is also outside the range of my monitor.

Here's a quick guide on IQ settings, I think he does a good job picking the more impactful settings:

From what I can see and what he recommends, there's quite a few settings that directly impact outdoor performance and also some settings that may help performance overall. You can also disable Motion Blur and Chromatic Aberration (for me these are usually the first ones to go in newer games). I agree with him that Depth of Field can help in certain games with nice landscapes, so that may be worth keeping.

 

[tajoh111]

I think a lot of the "nerd" rage, is really NVidia rage that is very common on this forum.

This is something very true.

What should be Nvidia rage should be general rage at the videocard market in general and the cease of buying from both vendors.

The 7900xt even at 799 has the same failings as a RTX 4070 in regards to price to performance increase with the added naming dishonesty on top.

That is 30% more performance vs the 6800xt for 23 or 38% more money if we consider the 800 current price or the 900 original price.

That's worse than the RTX 4070's price to performance increase.

With the correction of the RTX 4080 12gb to the RTX 4070 ti, Nvidia naming scheme will also be consistent from last generation, unlike AMD's. The 7900xt should have been called the 7800xt, particularly because the cut in specs vs the top model were even more severe when comparing the 6800xt vs the 6900xt.

Without the outrage from consumers being focused on AMD, AMD is getting to craft itself into the 2nd luxury videocard marker out of hate. People simply buying AMD out of spite forNvidia while AMD is doing the very same behavior if not worse in some ways. Making the market worse for everyone.

With AMD stooping low enough with naming a 7800 xt made from a Navi 32 die, AMD is getting rename their entire lineup and up price them because the consumer is allowing AMD to get away with such behavior with Nvidia did not. The $1200 RTX 4080 naming is at least transparent. It shows the massive price increase for the RTX 3080 successor.

The thing is AMD should be the value company and helps correct the market because they provide competition as the value player. The spend far less on R and D, spend far less on software and on top of this, are using a chiplet strategy that supposedly helps save costs. Where are these savings for the consumers? With this toxic marketing AMD has propagated, AMD is turning that savings into profits as they get to enjoy Nvidia margins without the spending in R and D and software. Before you point to Nvidia margins, just realize gross margins does not take into account R and D and AMD's margins are heavily weighed down from consoles which provide 25% of AMD's revenue but have margins in the teen figures.

For the market to get better, not only do Nvidia's sales have to fall, but AMD's as well.

 

[Ranulf]

I'm not remembering wrong. AMD finally beat Intel, and they could finally charge more, so they did.

You are correct but there were plenty of people who called them out on it and then got called eh, intel enthusiasts among other names. All for pointing out a 40-50% price increase for 20% peformance. The only reason AMD could get away with it was no competition as you mentioned and the current market demand for new chips at the time. It was yet another reason why buying new, especially with ryzen cpus made little sense to me unless you needed a cpu at that moment. Same happened with 12th gen to 13th gen Intel.

Also, the power usage of a 4070 is so much lower because it is really a 4060 level card at best and it is the same power draw as a 2060Super aka 2070 at 175W. So I'm not that impressed with the new 70 class card using the same power as 2 generations ago.

 

[Thunder 57]

You are correct but there were plenty of people who called them out on it and then got called eh, intel enthusiasts among other names. All for pointing out a 40-50% price increase for 20% peformance. The only reason AMD could get away with it was no competition as you mentioned and the current market demand for new chips at the time. It was yet another reason why buying new, especially with ryzen cpus made little sense to me unless you needed a cpu at that moment. Same happened with 12th gen to 13th gen Intel.

Also, the power usage of a 4070 is so much lower because it is really a 4060 level card at best and it is the same power draw as a 2060Super aka 2070 at 175W. So I'm not that impressed with the new 70 class card using the same power as 2 generations ago.

Come on, that is pure nonsense. It was a $50 price increase across the board. Not 1.4-1.5x. That lead to a 20% increase at the bottom of the stack to a 6.7% increase at the top.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Come on, that is pure nonsense. It was a $50 price increase across the board. Not 1.4-1.5x. That lead to a 20% increase at the bottom of the stack to a 6.7% increase at the top.

As noted before 3600 and 3600X released together, starting at $200.

5600X released alone starting at $300. That meant buying 6 core of this generation would cost 50% more than the previous generation.

It might have been a lower percentage at the top end but it was a fat 50% right at the mainstream sweet spot.

 

[Geegeeoh]

Another topic derailing into nVidia/Intel vs. AMD.
What a joy.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Another topic derailing into nVidia/Intel vs. AMD.
What a joy.

Did you read the title of the thread you are in? It is EXACTLY what the content is about i.e. Nvidia vs AMD. I am personally looking forward to when Intel is a relevant part of this particular conversation. I'd love to see XeSS mature and in enough titles that it enters the chat.

 

[blckgrffn]

Can we channel that into DLSS2 vs FSR2? I need the TL;DR version of that video in writing because videos aren't my thing w/regards to this competition rather than vs Native.

What I want to know if they are relatively even - win some, lose some - in terms of retaining IQ while improving performance.

And I mean this in terms of large noticeable differences, so the people I am building PCs for are going to notice type differences. Not like there is one title where the stairs look funny. Can we get a double digit performance uplift with small issues? I am more concerned about high refresh rate gaming at this point, or playing "1440p" games at decent frames, high details on a card like a 3060 or 6600.

Can we war about that vs perceived outrage levels? Its still subjective and I really appreciated the handful of serious comments regarding this so far.

I use FSR on my Steam Deck because the screen is tiny and the real issue is battery life, and capping fps at 30 and having the GPU do as little as possible is the goal. In that vein, can we get more fps for less power for the laptop and eco conscious gamers out there?

 

[Geegeeoh]

Did you read the title of the thread you are in? It is EXACTLY what the content is about i.e. Nvidia vs AMD. I am personally looking forward to when Intel is a relevant part of this particular conversation. I'd love to see XeSS mature and in enough titles that it enters the chat.

God forbids we focus the discussion on the technology!
What side, cuz apparently we have to take sides, is "native"? AMD since DLSS is "better than FSR"? Childish.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Can we channel that into DLSS2 vs FSR2? I need the TL;DR version of that video in writing because videos aren't my thing w/regards to this competition rather than vs Native.

This is one is really a followup that focuses most on DLSS vs Native.

The first video was DLSS vs FSR2:

Info - Hardware Unboxed: Massive DLSS to FSR comparison

26 games X 2 upscalers X 4 Modes (4K Qual to 1440p Perf) = Absurd amount of work. Conclusion DLSS is better. Here is the Matrix image for all the games. More + signs indicate a bigger win (there are no FSR wins): I'm more looking forward to the comparison to native he is working on...

forums.anandtech.com

The TLDR of that was that DLSS is better than FSR. Here is the frame cap of that comparison, more +++ signs is a bigger win. Note while there are some ties, there are no FSR wins.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

God forbids we focus the discussion on the technology!
What side, cuz apparently we have to take sides, is "native"? AMD since DLSS is "better than FSR"? Childish.

I agree. I also understand that people allowing their amygdalas to write their responses is as certain as the next sunrise. I do laud you for attempting to interject some reason and steer the discussion back to a better course.

 

[blckgrffn]

This is one is really a followup that focuses most on DLSS vs Native.

The first video was DLSS vs FSR2:

Info - Hardware Unboxed: Massive DLSS to FSR comparison

26 games X 2 upscalers X 4 Modes (4K Qual to 1440p Perf) = Absurd amount of work. Conclusion DLSS is better. Here is the Matrix image for all the games. More + signs indicate a bigger win (there are no FSR wins): I'm more looking forward to the comparison to native he is working on...

forums.anandtech.com

The TLDR of that was that DLSS is better than FSR. Here is the frame cap of that comparison, more +++ signs is a bigger win. Note while there are some ties, there are no FSR wins.

Are the plusses performance increases were superior? Is it an IQ bug that is less obvious?

Thanks for the table in any case. How I miss long form written stuff. Obviously it's harder to monetize and I am in the minority, but it is so appreciated.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Are the plusses performance increases were superior? Is it an IQ bug that is less obvious?

Thanks for the table in any case. How I miss long form written stuff. Obviously it's harder to monetize and I am in the minority, but it is so appreciated.

Performance gains were essentially the same. More plusses indicate a bigger visual difference.

HWUB publishes a lot of their reviews in written form on Techspot, though not this comparison.

I find for their GPU reviews, since they added indexes, it's faster to find what I want in the video. I usually want to see the big multi-game comparison as one slide. I just click that in the index and I'm there...

 

[DAPUNISHER]

DLSS is better at upscaling than FSR. Does anyone here disagree with that statement?

For me it is a correct statement. But one that has a massive caveat; that being, it is behind a paywall. AMD, Intel, and Nvidia GTX owners can't use it. For all of those owners, there are only 2 choices -

1. Pay the nvidia tax so you can have the absolute best upscaling. Don't forget the additional charges if you want enough VRAM and GPU power to make it worth your purchase.

2. Stay with your present GPU and live with FSR and/or XeSS.

Where FSR shines, is it works on just about anything = free performance. I won't include XeSS as it is still immature and works significantly better on ARC than other vendors cards from what I have seen. It works on my APUs and GTX 1080. DLSS isn't supported so it loses in those scenarios by default. Which is why for those of us not interested in buying RTX for whatever reason, it is all just a sales pitch. Your BMW may be better than my Honda, but it costs more, and I don't have to pay a bill every month for heated seats. 😝

 

[Ranulf]

Come on, that is pure nonsense. It was a $50 price increase across the board. Not 1.4-1.5x. That lead to a 20% increase at the bottom of the stack to a 6.7% increase at the top.

No one paying attention bought a 3600X for $250 unless they had to due to product availability. The same for the 3800X that was $400 vs $329 3700X. The 3800X was also selling for $340 or so 5 months after release in Dec. 2019 with a free game. The 3700X was down to $300 if I remember right. I'm comparing the baseline non-x parts to the X only parts first offered with zen 3 chips in Nov 2020.

 

[blckgrffn]

DLSS is better at upscaling than FSR. Does anyone here disagree with that statement?

For me it is a correct statement. But one that has a massive caveat; that being, it is behind a paywall. AMD, Intel, and Nvidia GTX owners can't use it. For all of those owners, there are only 2 choices -

1. Pay the nvidia tax so you can have the absolute best upscaling. Don't forget the additional charges if you want enough VRAM and GPU power to make it worth your purchase.

2. Stay with your present GPU and live with FSR and/or XeSS.

Where FSR shines, is it works on just about anything = free performance. I won't include XeSS as it is still immature and works significantly better on ARC than other vendors cards from what I have seen. It works on my APUs and GTX 1080. DLSS isn't supported so it loses in those scenarios by default. Which is why for those of us not interested in buying RTX for whatever reason, it is all just a sales pitch. Your BMW may be better than my Honda, but it costs more, and I don't have to pay a bill every month for heated seats. 😝

In that in majority of cases it provides better (from a little to what is evidently a lot) better IQ with the same level of performance "uplift", that appears to be the truth.

If you are looking to generate frames to keep input latency low and don't care as much about the IQ but want to run "at native" res, I dunno. Sounds like performance is pretty similar on that front.

Driving your 4K laptop monitor with a space heater of a GPU and hoping to get 60 fps at "native" without it starting on fire? Seems like closer race.

I guess it depends on why you are turning it on. I understand this video is about turning it on because things look "better" in that you are making a different rendering concession. DLSS seems to be the ideal solution if IQ is the priority.

But if you don't care about IQ, it seems like there are other options. Like turning down settings? lol. Crazy, I know. Developers and consumers just want that easy button in your game settings interface, I guess.

As I alluded to before the end game to me seems to be even less optimization effort on the game itself because you can just turn this on and get the performance "back."

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I don't know why we are talking about CPUs now, but stop derailing the thread people.

 

[Thunder 57]

Are the plusses performance increases were superior? Is it an IQ bug that is less obvious?

Thanks for the table in any case. How I miss long form written stuff. Obviously it's harder to monetize and I am in the minority, but it is so appreciated.

I don't think that you are. I much prefer something written. Videos can be a nice supplment but should be just that. Unfortunatly you are right, it is much harder to monetize. I hate having to click through a video to find what I want. Even with indeces I prefer the gold old articles we grew up on. If there is no index I don't even bother with a video.

I do wonder how the younger crowd feels though. They may prefer videos.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I don't think that you are. I much prefer something written. Videos can be a nice supplment but should be just that. Unfortunatly you are right, it is much harder to monetize. I hate having to click through a video to find what I want. Even with indeces I prefer the gold old articles we grew up on. If there is no index I don't even bother with a video.

I do wonder how the younger crowd feels though. They may prefer videos.

I am over 55 now and prefer videos. Reason being I game. No still screenshot or bar graph is going to demonstrate what the gameplay experience is like. I need to see it for myself. Big reviews fail to do this 99.9% of the time. Which is why I hit up smaller channels that play the games for hours. If the frame buffer is getting stuffed, if frame pacing, hitching, and microstutter are present, I'll see it. Are assets not loading or popping in and out? Are there visual issues? Some things are harder to spot at 60fps Youtube but Afterburner augments that.

Written articles are great accompaniments to the videos, but on their own I only like them for technical details not hardware performance in games. Hell, even computer base only does less than a 30 second pass right? Not enough to know what is going on with VRAM for instance. I dislike where most test in games too. Having played the same games, I often find myself SMH at how unrevealing the results often are. I can load a save and make their numbers look way too good.

What Tim did is a good blend of methods in my opinion.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

In that in majority of cases it provides better (from a little to what is evidently a lot) better IQ with the same level of performance "uplift", that appears to be the truth.

If you are looking to generate frames to keep input latency low and don't care as much about the IQ but want to run "at native" res, I dunno. Sounds like performance is pretty similar on that front.

Driving your 4K laptop monitor with a space heater of a GPU and hoping to get 60 fps at "native" without it starting on fire? Seems like closer race.

I guess it depends on why you are turning it on. I understand this video is about turning it on because things look "better" in that you are making a different rendering concession. DLSS seems to be the ideal solution if IQ is the priority.

But if you don't care about IQ, it seems like there are other options. Like turning down settings? lol. Crazy, I know. Developers and consumers just want that easy button in your game settings interface, I guess.

As I alluded to before the end game to me seems to be even less optimization effort on the game itself because you can just turn this on and get the performance "back."

I mostly agree, but the bold part is the same argument 8GB defenders are using. The easy button has been one of console's biggest pros, until recently. Now they are more like PC than ever, with some games having quite a few options for how to play.

edit: If IQ isn't important to the gamer, it is going to save them a lot of money. Where DLSS is concerned, it appears to be providing a subjectively better experience while improving performance. That's a good thing overall IMO. Games being designed to leverage DLSS, FSR, XeSS, doesn't bother me either. If they look and play properly I don't care how they did it.

 

[coercitiv]

An interesting attempt to use perceptual analysis tools to evaluate DLSS and FSR performance versus "Native". There's plenty nitpicking to be had for anyone looking for it, but I find the attempt very interesting as a complementary material to the video in the OP.

The most interesting aspect of using this tool is not the 1080p assessment by itself, but rather the relative change as we increase input resolution: both upscalers manage better IQ and stability, which is great news for people looking to buy 4K monitors who want to stay with (cough) "midrange" (cough) GPUs.

 

[Heartbreaker]

An interesting attempt to use perceptual analysis tools to evaluate DLSS and FSR performance versus "Native". There's plenty nitpicking to be had for anyone looking for it, but I find the attempt very interesting as a complementary material to the video in the OP.

The main nitpick is that it's meaningless.

One thing Makes VMAF usage almost completely useless for this kind of comparison: Nearly half the time, DLSS is better than native.

VMAF would flag cases where DLSS is better than native, as being worse than native, because you are just setting the native presentation as the 100% correct one. So any improvement will actually marked as degradations.

The more superior DLSS was in a scene, the worse it's score would be.

So, you really need a human to do the quality analysis, (for now).

 

[coercitiv]

The main nitpick is that it's meaningless.

Oh man, it's so hard trying to work with you even when attempting to help. It's almost as if you want to be grumpy by yourself in your ivory tower.

Has it crossed your mind I thought about what you just wrote? Did you stop to ponder why I recommended looking at this assessment from the PoV of relative improvements as we move from 1080p -> 4K? The results objectively show that increasing input resolution lowers the perceived difference between "Native" and Upscaled results. It doesn't matter which one is considered better as long as we have convergence. Upsamplers win because they offer better performance at ISO quality. Any gain in IQ (edges, fine detail reconstruction) is just gravy on top.

Spoiler

 

[Heartbreaker]

Has it crossed your mind I thought about what you just wrote?

If you thought about, why not mention it?

It's a rather glaring issue using VMAF here.