Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[Hitman928]

Those numbers are the average idle power whilst monitoring the device, which is going to require you to spin up the chip to do in the first place. That's an extra workload not being discussed you're throwing into the mix.

They are measured on AC power at the wall with an external watt meter so it doesn't require monitoring software on the laptop. Of course, this comes with its own issues (referring to my own post above). I agree on the rest though.

 

[tamz_msc]

First, where do you get your OLED number from and what size screen is it in reference to?

From here:

OLED is great, but where are all the Mini LED laptops?

We dig into the research and interview companies about the potential of Mini LED.

arstechnica.com

And the rest of your post is tangential to the discussion because in their own test of the Acer Swift, Notebookcheck reports a battery runtime of 336 minutes in their WiFi web-surfing test, which is even lower than what TH got.

You can't really use those numbers to estimate overall battery life, I don't think they're accurate considering that's the minimum idle power, average idle power is higher, and the latter is how you should actually be "estimating" battery life.

Those numbers are the average idle power whilst monitoring the device, which is going to require you to spin up the chip to do in the first place. That's an extra workload not being discussed you're throwing into the mix.

Yes, I can, because this is what happens when you do stuff with the Acer:



Also as far as the Elitebook is concerned, 51/4.3 = 11.8 hours. And as per NBC they got 471 minutes, that is a little less than 8 hours, running the WiFi web browsing test. So the supposedly best implementation of Phoenix-U is still behind the Lenovo MTL by over 3 hours.

By the way, this is a 7840U device that gets 12 hours of battery life with a 51WHr battery. Just saying.

Just saying, I hate it when people cite things wrongly.

That's a lot of ranting to very conveniently ignore that Tom's Hardware got similar battery life (with the difference being in just a few minutes) with the same "workload" as the MTL device here. Like that's some real selective memory taking place here.

Take the L, please. 🤡

Gaslighting and disinformation is not my arena.

Insulting others is not permitted - CPU mod DAPUNISHER

 

[branch_suggestion]

Still January, but I think this will be a hard video to top in the dead brain cell department.
So many things wrong, so many ridiculous assumptions that he already seems to treat as fact.
For your sake, don't watch it unless you wanna cringe.

 

[Saylick]

Still January, but I think this will be a hard video to top in the dead brain cell department.
So many things wrong, so many ridiculous assumptions that he already seems to treat as fact.
For your sake, don't watch it unless you wanna cringe.

I think CoreTeks would have a better career as an erotic novel voice actor than as hardware rumor mill monger.

Edit: Yikes. This is just off the mark for so many reasons.

 

[branch_suggestion]

I think CoreTeks would have a better career as an erotic novel voice actor than as hardware rumor mill monger.

Edit: Yikes. This is just off the mark for so many reasons.
View attachment 92732

The three stooges are going to deliver plenty of entertainment, at their expense.

 

[Hitman928]

From here:

OLED is great, but where are all the Mini LED laptops?

We dig into the research and interview companies about the potential of Mini LED.

arstechnica.com

View attachment 92719

And the rest of your post is tangential to the discussion because in their own test of the Acer Swift, Notebookcheck reports a battery runtime of 336 minutes in their WiFi web-surfing test, which is even lower than what TH got.

Yes, I can, because this is what happens when you do stuff with the Acer:

View attachment 92721

Also as far as the Elitebook is concerned, 51/4.3 = 11.8 hours. And as per NBC they got 471 minutes, that is a little less than 8 hours, running the WiFi web browsing test. So the supposedly best implementation of Phoenix-U is still behind the Lenovo MTL by over 3 hours.

Just saying, I hate it when people cite things wrongly.

Take the L, please. 🤡

Gaslighting and disinformation is not my arena.

You've convinced me, I agree now with your way of thinking about this. That's why, after searching near and far, I found the best possible CPU, the 7840u in a Lenovo laptop. It offers over 13 hours of browsing battery life on only a 57 Whr battery. Honorable mention would be the HP laptop with a 7840u. It actually is even more efficient but the battery life isn't as long due to a lower capacity battery so it gets knocked down a peg. You're going to need glasses because this one shines so bright! No need to check how they are configured, clearly when Lenovo or HP get a hold of a CPU they know how to do it right and Zen4 can really shine ahead of any competition!

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-T14s-G4-review-Business-laptop-is-better-with-AMD-Zen4.763581.0.html

 

[tamz_msc]

You've convinced me, I agree now with your way of thinking about this. That's why, after searching near and far, I found the best possible CPU, the 7840u in a Lenovo laptop. It offers over 13 hours of browsing battery life on only a 57 Whr battery. Honorable mention would be the HP laptop with a 7840u. It actually is even more efficient but the battery life isn't as long due to a lower capacity battery so it gets knocked down a peg. You're going to need glasses because this one shines so bright! No need to check how they are configured, clearly when Lenovo or HP get a hold of a CPU they know how to do it right and Zen4 can really shine ahead of any competition!

View attachment 92733

View attachment 92736

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-T14s-G4-review-Business-laptop-is-better-with-AMD-Zen4.763581.0.html

LoL now you're doing the same thing - comparing laptops with different panels - that you complained I was doing in my earlier post.

Your commentary reminds me of this quote from Shakespeare:

Gratiano speaks an infinite deal of nothing, more than any man in all Venice. His reasons are as two grains of wheat hid in two bushels off chaff: you shall seek all day ere you find them, and when you have them, they are not worth the search.

This forum is an echo-chamber full of Gratianos supporting a particular "team".

Trolling and personal insults are not permitted - CPU mod DAPUNISHER

 

[Markfw]

LoL now you're doing the same thing - comparing laptops with different panels - that you complained I was doing in my earlier post.

Your commentary reminds me of this quote from Shakespeare:



This forum is an echo-chamber full of Gratianos supporting a particular "team".

The fact that your particular "team" is not doing well at the moment and you keep defending them speaks volumes.

Please try to stay away from being a cheerleader.

 

[Hitman928]

LoL now you're doing the same thing - comparing laptops with different panels - that you complained I was doing in my earlier post.

Your commentary reminds me of this quote from Shakespeare:



This forum is an echo-chamber full of Gratianos supporting a particular "team".

Like I said, you won me over to your way of thinking, so that led me to this outcome. Do you have any kind of objection to the comparison?

 

[tamz_msc]

Like I said, you won me over to your way of thinking, so that led me to this outcome. Do you have any kind of objection to the comparison?

You haven't proved anything so far.

The fact that your particular "team" is not doing well at the moment and you keep defending them speaks volumes.

Please try to stay away from being a cheerleader.

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[adroc_thurston]

You've convinced me, I agree now with your way of thinking about this. That's why, after searching near and far, I found the best possible CPU, the 7840u in a Lenovo laptop. It offers over 13 hours of browsing battery life on only a 57 Whr battery. Honorable mention would be the HP laptop with a 7840u. It actually is even more efficient but the battery life isn't as long due to a lower capacity battery so it gets knocked down a peg. You're going to need glasses because this one shines so bright! No need to check how they are configured, clearly when Lenovo or HP get a hold of a CPU they know how to do it right and Zen4 can really shine ahead of any competition!

View attachment 92733

View attachment 92736

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-T14s-G4-review-Business-laptop-is-better-with-AMD-Zen4.763581.0.html

jesus, now that's an assassination.

You haven't proved anything so far.

chefe NBC database is public access.
It's not that hard.
You can even open the T14s review and add laptops in the battery life section as you wish...

 

[tamz_msc]

jesus, now that's an assassination.

chefe NBC database is public access.
It's not that hard.
You can even open the T14s review and add laptops in the battery life section as you wish...

T14s has a 1920x1200 60Hz display, whose power consumption is unknown.

The "assassin" doing the deed forgot that minor detail.

 

[adroc_thurston]

T14s has a 1920x1200 60Hz display, whose power consumption is unknown.

Great now wait until someone plugs MTL into thinkpads.
And then NBC measures it.
We good?

 

[tamz_msc]

Great now wait until someone plugs MTL into thinkpads.
And then NBC measures it.
We good?

If that is the position everyone had taken since the release of MTL, then we would not be having this discussion anyway, but apparently "MTL is a failure" is a verdict that has already been pronounced on these forums.

 

[adroc_thurston]

If that is the position everyone had taken since the release of MTL

Yeah but it's mid.

but apparently "MTL is a failure" is a verdict that has already been pronounced on these forums.

It is.
Worse perf, horrible costs, all the issues and bugs make it very not worth it so far.
The iGP is ok at least but hammer comes for it all the same.
If you want to talk Intel product, focus on LNL.
It's the new (old) niche of tablet parts where AMD no longer competes and thus Intel wins by default!
It's also pretty good by itself!

 

[tamz_msc]

Worse perf, horrible costs, all the issues and bugs make it very not worth it so far.

All of those assertions need points of comparison.

 

[adroc_thurston]

All of those assertions need points of comparison.

Yeah it's called Raptor Lake-U/H.
Solid cheapo parts even if -H is not suitable for premium ultrathin all that much, really.

 

[tamz_msc]

Yeah it's called Raptor Lake-U/H.
Solid cheapo parts even if -H is not suitable for premium ultrathin all that much, really.

Raptor-U is an entirely different power envelope. I would wager that even the best Raptor-U implementation would not surpass this i5 125H as implemented in the Lenovo in single threaded perf.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Raptor-U is an entirely different power envelope.

MTL-U exists!
Intel itself forgot it exists yet it does.

i5 125H as implemented in the Lenovo in single threaded perf.

1355U clocks healthy 5GHz with a memory subsystem that's not a catastrophe so yeah it will.
MTL is ok for nT and iGP but that's about it.

 

[uzzi38]

From here:

OLED is great, but where are all the Mini LED laptops?

We dig into the research and interview companies about the potential of Mini LED.

arstechnica.com

View attachment 92719

And the rest of your post is tangential to the discussion because in their own test of the Acer Swift, Notebookcheck reports a battery runtime of 336 minutes in their WiFi web-surfing test, which is even lower than what TH got.

Yes, I can, because this is what happens when you do stuff with the Acer:

View attachment 92721

Also as far as the Elitebook is concerned, 51/4.3 = 11.8 hours. And as per NBC they got 471 minutes, that is a little less than 8 hours, running the WiFi web browsing test. So the supposedly best implementation of Phoenix-U is still behind the Lenovo MTL by over 3 hours.

Just saying, I hate it when people cite things wrongly.

Take the L, please. 🤡

Gaslighting and disinformation is not my arena.

In this post you manage to

1. Once again ignore results you find inconvenient (Tom's Hardware's battery life tests with the Acer, which are very obviously going to be the ones most comparable to their testing of the Lenovo device).

2. Attempt to mislead by claiming the "supposedly best implementation of Phoenix-U is still behind the Lenovo MTL by over 3 hours." whilst again ignoring the difference in battery sizes (51WHr vs 84WHr)

3. Be so self unaware by telling me to "take the L" that I think you genuinely give MLID a run for his money on least self-aware people on the tech internet.

I'll be honest, I'm impressed! I didn't think you could top your last few posts, but somehow you did it!

Instead of claiming everyone is a fanboy, how about you just accept what MTL actually is? It's got a solid CPU with much needed improved performance at low power, improved battery life over last gen (although still just a tiny bit short of PHX - it's not a gap I'd be concerned about in the slightest), solid GPU hardware with middling software support for it. And it's not a hugely expensive part as far as actual design wins go, making it a nice improvement gen on gen. You can do that without relying on flawed reviews or grasping at straws, lmao.

MTL isn't some revolution for laptops - x86 or not - I'm not sure why you're so desperate to treat it as such. It's just an ok part really. I'd be a lot more excited for Lunar Lake if I were you.

 

[Thibsie]

In this post you manage to

1. Once again ignore results you find inconvenient (Tom's Hardware's battery life tests with the Acer, which are very obviously going to be the ones most comparable to their testing of the Lenovo device).

2. Attempt to mislead by claiming the "supposedly best implementation of Phoenix-U is still behind the Lenovo MTL by over 3 hours." whilst again ignoring the difference in battery sizes (51WHr vs 84WHr)

3. Be so self unaware by telling me to "take the L" that I think you genuinely give MLID a run for his money on least self-aware people on the tech internet.

I'll be honest, I'm impressed! I didn't think you could top your last few posts, but somehow you did it!

Instead of claiming everyone is a fanboy, how about you just accept what MTL actually is? It's got a solid CPU with much needed improved performance at low power, improved battery life over last gen (although still just a tiny bit short of PHX - it's not a gap I'd be concerned about in the slightest), solid GPU hardware with middling software support for it. And it's not a hugely expensive part as far as actual design wins go, making it a nice improvement gen on gen. You can do that without relying on flawed reviews or grasping at straws, lmao.

MTL isn't some revolution for laptops - x86 or not - I'm not sure why you're so desperate to treat it as such. It's just an ok part really. I'd be a lot more excited for Lunar Lake if I were you.

I see the ignore function still isn't used as often as it could.

 

[uzzi38]

I see the ignore function still isn't used as often as it could.

I mean I find it funny when people post incoherent rambling, I don't really see a reason to use it tbh.

 

[Thibsie]

I mean I find it funny when people post incoherent rambling, I don't really see a reason to use it tbh.

Well, when it's funny, sure. When it's essentially threads pollution, no.
That's my personnal take on things, of course.

 

[eek2121]

MTL isn't some revolution for laptops - x86 or not - I'm not sure why you're so desperate to treat it as such. It's just an ok part really. I'd be a lot more excited for Lunar Lake if I were you.

For Intel, Meteor Lake improves perf/watt, a place they have traditionally been terrible.

It is also a tech demo of what could be possible with a bit of innovation. (yes I know Intel is rumored to be killing LPe cores after Arrow Lake.

IMO anyone making a CPU for laptop scenarios should pay attention. AMD and Intel both would do well to include 2-4 extremely low power cores to handle tasks. Coupled with the ability to throttle IO and RAM, such a design could definitely be more efficient.

We need a similar solution for GPUs as well and a way to let Windows see “the happy path” to power savings.

What we really need is Windows to be optimized for such a setup. Many of the Windows processes could be run on these cores without compromising performance. Even if the CPU tile is active this could save some power.

That is my opinion, anyway.

Regarding the display, OLED should use less power in theory. If it isn’t then companies are likely cheaping out. Good Adaptive Sync OLED displays should be capable of at least 1-120hz refresh.

 

[mikk]

Battery life time in low load or idle seems stronger on Meteor Lake in some tests which is the most important for many users. ST is down slightly but nothing major, who cares.