No grease on caliper slide pins?

[rdp6]

2011 Ford Flex Ecoboost, 25K miles, driven by wife, 20/80 city/hwy driving profile in North Central Ohio for just shy of 2 years since bought new. Mostly she stays out of the boost and treats the brake pedal normally; if anything she doesn't anticipate stops as I do and tends to be on the gas longer and brake later than I would, but she is not at all a bad driver.

Still on the original brakes.

So, left rear brake seems to be sticking. Symptoms are: LR rotor much, much hotter than right, noisy, smell of brake pad material.

2 weeks ago had the wife take it to the dealership, who claimed brake dust contamination in the pads and slides were likely at fault. Dealer cleaned the slides and recommended brake service soon due to 4mm of brake pad remaining.

Today I heard the brake making a loud noise as she came to a stop in the driveway. After a few minutes of unloading children I checked rotor temps: RR was in the 90F range, LR was off the scale (I think the scale tops out at 350 on my B&D IR thermometer). I had her slowly roll the wagon a bit and it seems that the noise is intermittent with wheel position, e.g. possible lightly warped rotor.

I plan on replacing the rotors, pads, and fluid in a few weeks on one of the days that the temperature reaches in the 50s, but I read something which seems to me a bit odd, and maybe I misunderstand, so this is where I'd like some insight: Ford directs that mechanics do not use caliper grease on the caliper slides.

Is this common? Will my family DIAcarF if I use the grease? Rolling on OEM 20" wheels and don't plan on upgrading to a big brake kit. It seems to me that using some grease might help prevent the caliper from hanging up.

TL;DR: Ford says don't use caliper grease on caliper slide pins; me: why not?

 

[phucheneh]

I would have to assume they mean 'we put grease on the pins, we like our grease, don't clean the pins and put different grease in there.'

Or they're saying not to lube the pad slides. I wouldn't pay much mind to either, frankly. Lubing the pad slides isn't necessary; the pads aren't prone to sticking on that design. But it prevents noise.

As far as the pins, shit yeah they should have lube. It's a metal pin that sits in a metal sleeve in the caliper bracket, same as most front discs. If you pull the pins and they're totally dry, something is wrong.

Most importantly, though, that car has the parking brake in the rear calipers. That's the typical source of the 'hey my rotor is glowing and it smells like burning hair' phenomenon. But I've never seen it just happen on its own; it typically happens after someone has fucked with the brakes. You'll know if there's an issue when you take them apart, as the piston won't want to go back in as you rotate (and push) it. Buy the specialty tool or rent it from the parts store if they have it.

I've fixed over-extended pistons (that's usually why they're stuck) before by removing the spring from the caliper, disconnecting the brake line, and, uh...fucking with it. Not an exact science. And I don't recommend it...you do not want to remove that spring unless it's just to get the cable loose so you can replace the caliper.

In general, I hate that design and hope whoever came up with it dies in a fire.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I've seen older cars have a caliper freeze on its slide pins or a piston stick from corrosion in areas where they get lots of road salt, but that shouldn't be the issue on a 2011 model.

I think phucheneh has it right here, check that the pistons aren't hanging up due to the parking brake system. And he's right that the design in question is a royal pain. I much prefer the system that has a separate small rear drum brake in the hub for the parking brake in addition to the rear disc setup (as used on my 951 and S70).

ZV

 

[rdp6]

AFAIK the wife rarely uses the parking brake, but just for S&G I just went out and set and reset the parking brake twice. For those who are unfamiliar, the PB is on a ratcheting pedal which operates against a spring (that is my guess anyway) and is released by pushing the pedal in quite far and then removing pressure on the pedal. I suppose that the parking break may stay somewhat engaged if some pressure remains on the pedal as it returns to the disengaged position.

The vehicle was completely cooled (it is 30F here now) since being parked around 5:40 this evening. After working the PB I drove up and down my driveway with the LR window down and noticed no noise at all other than idle engine noise and normal tire noise on gravel. After a few passes at engine idle (fast idle, due to cold engine) I made a few more while braking to listen for any noise. None noticed. Finally I made a couple of passes at idle and braked abruptly and hard in both forward and reverse.

I'll tell the wife to let me know what she observes tomorrow.

Funny story about parking brakes integrated in the rear calipers: my B6 Passat has an electronic parking brake (push-button to engage / disengage with auto-hold / hill-holder function which I use all the time since it is manual trans). I recently changed out all the original pads, rotors, and fluid at around 120K miles (>95% highway for me), and having read all about needing to somehow release the rear parking brake in order to fit new pads, I wondered if I was going to have to get a VAG-COM for my 99% stock car. I saw that there were only 2 electrical connections to the PB motor, so I connected a 9V battery while checking the direction of the piston for correct polarity. Retracted the calipers fully and completed the job with no problems at all. I read how some had spent nearly $1K replacing mangled calipers and was lead to believe that either get the VAG-COM, take it to the dealer, or remove the gear drive assy and manually retract the piston were the only safe options.

I did use caliper grease all over the back of the pads and the slides and have plenty left over (bought a handful of tubes plus whatever came with Hawk HPS pads).

 

[Zenmervolt]

A parking brake that is generally unused will tend to bind on the occasions that it does get used in my experience. Not all the time, of course, but I've always had better luck if I use the parking brake all the time; it just seems to keep things from sticking if it's used frequently.

ZV

 

[rdp6]

So I just watched a youtube vid showing how to work on Honda rear disc brake with what appeared to be an integrated PB; I didn't notice anything special about the PB other than just that the piston must be rotated as it is retracted, and finally rotated so that the groove is centered before reassembling. Maybe the car being worked on didn't have an issue with the PB as I didn't see the guy do anything with the PB cable at all.

Thank you both for your responses =)

 

[sontakke]

I don't think Honda ever had that kind of rear disc brakes but Nissan did. From my own experience with Nissan Maxima, those rear calipers which have integrated parking brakes do become sticky and needs to be replaced after seven eight years of NE climate.

 

[LTC8K6]

I don't think Honda ever had that kind of rear disc brakes but Nissan did. From my own experience with Nissan Maxima, those rear calipers which have integrated parking brakes do become sticky and needs to be replaced after seven eight years of NE climate.

Element has the parking brake in the rear disc.

 

[leper84]

Definitely sounds like a sticking caliper. The only other possible cause would be a bearing issue but you'd probably be hearing a little more than a little brake noise if that were the case.

Either way, don't screw with it. Its under warranty, take it to Ford and be firm that they fix it. If the caliper really is sticking then they owe you new pads in the back at no cost. You could also argue they owe you a set of rotors being they're gonna have to cut the hell out of the one on the sticking side if they can even keep it above discard.

 

[phucheneh]

There are different kinds of in-caliper parking brakes. IIRC, in addition to the 'Ford' design (also prominent on Mazda and Volvo), there is the 'GM' design, which is probably the most common. I think the Japanese cars use something similar to the GM design, which generally seems far less troublesome.

If you have to index the caliper piston to the pad, it ain't the Ford design, which uses balls and plates and stuff that generally says 'hey, look at me, I seem too complex and under-engineered! watch me jam!'

 

[phucheneh]

Ironically, I just experienced the first inkling of any issue with my parking brake (Mazda- uses the Ford design, as do all cars on the 3/Focus/ect platform).

Went to back out of my drive...tried to shift into reverse, wouldn't go in. Common issue with manuals; spur cut, synchroless reverse gear sometimes ends up in a position where you're just banging stationary gear teeth against each other. Solution: release brakes. If on completely flat ground, maybe do a little bit of an awkward rock to give the car just a little nudge.

Upon said nudge, car resisted movement, then *POP*. Slight movement, went into gear.

Pretty sure one of the rear calipers stuck after the e-brake was released, then suddenly got un-stuck and the spring retracted it with no resistance from the cable...pop.

Hopefully a fluke and not a sign of problems to come.

 

[rdp6]

I asked the wife about parking brake use and how she releases the brakes. I am not certain how to interpret her response (we're feuding over something stupid), but there was no complaint of a stuck brake today.

I agree that if it is a stuck caliper that Ford should pick up the bill with no questions other than how about a reasonable loaner while they take care of the problem, but I have no confidence they would handle it that way.

I took my VW in to the Ganley Westside in N. Olmsted up until the 90K service and they always treated me fine. Actually I went back at around 105K when the cam follower issue (BPY 2.0T FSI) arose. Note my posts here about the loaner with a serious deficit of oil about a year ago... Anyway, they never once made me ask them to make something right at the service shop.

With my family situation, where we live, and my desire to learn and save money, I always come out ahead in terms of time and money as well as confidence in workmanship when I DIY my PMs. Also gives me some credibility at work, too.

Of course I go to a shop with a lift for exhaust work...

Anyway, did I read correctly: there is no particular required orientation for the caliper [rotation] when replacing pads? I stopped watching Eric the Car Guy's video about 20 minutes in to the lecture.

I should look at the brake parts and see if there is a non-Ford mark on them. I saw Ate on my VW's brakes once I started disassembly; had I known it was an Ate-designed system I would have probably looked for Ate consumables as I had no problem with OEM performance, except availability and cost of VW / Audi- labeled parts.

 

[phucheneh]

The piston must be rotated to a certain point on SOME vehicles, so that it engages a matching part on the back of the brake pad. The e-brake on these vehicles relies on the piston being locked from rotating so that it can be mechanically pushed out.

As far as I know, Ford has never been this way. There are 2-3 different designs for e-brakes, but most makes stick to a certain one.

GM's method, which may be the same as some Japanese cars, is 'screw and nut' (...heh). I can't remember the Ford name, but it involves balls (double-heh).

Ah, google, you win this time...

http://webtools.delmarlearning.com/sample_chapters/3519P-08.pdf

Scroll about 3/4 of the way down for e-brake types. The Ford piston is free to rotate. In fanct, I believe it has to (not 100% there), so nubs on the brakepad would actually jam the e-brake. All you need is a basic rule of thumb...if both brake pads are flat in the middle (area where piston hits), don't worry about orientation. If there are a couple nubs cast into the back (again, under the piston...not at the edges; those usually are there to hold shims in place), then yeah, you need to make sure the piston gets lined up.

Only problem this leaves is someone giving you the wrong pads...but that happens all the time, anyway. Always check the new pads against the old ones, and make sure they're the same. And note which pad is the inner and which is the outer (doesn't always matter, but sometimes they only go one way due to something not terribly obvious at first glance).

edit: oh, and if you have a push-on/push-off type of ebrake, there's really no wrong way to do it. The caliper design is probably why it's not a pull-lever release...they don't want the piston being violently jerked back by an immediate release of cable tension. Hand brake serves the same purpose, since you invariable remove the tension fairly slow; can't really slam the handle since you have to keep holding the button.