NV 4060 / 4060TI reviews

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tajoh111

Senior member
Mar 28, 2005
299
312
136
RTX 3070Ti(GA104 392.5mm2) -> RTX 4080(AD103 378.6mm2) is 80% faster at 4K(TPU).
RTX 3070Ti(GA104 392.5mm2) -> RTX 4070Ti(AD104 294.5mm2) is 43% faster at 4K(TPU).

RTX 3060(GA106 276mm2) -> RTX 4070Ti(AD104 294.5mm2) is 135% faster at 4K(TPU).
RTX 3060(GA106 276mm2) -> RTX 4060Ti(AD106 190mm2) is 41% faster at 4K(TPU).

Why you compare AD103 to GA104 or AD104 to GA106 is unknown to me.
ADA uses a vastly superior process, which in a bit smaller space can pack 2.64x more transistors(AD103 vs GA104), but It also cost a lot more to make. I wouldn't be surprised If the price per wafer was ~3-3.5x more expensive than what they had at Samsung.
There is no way they would price ADA as the previous generation, so no $600 for Ada103.

I have to correct some things you wrote.
RX 7900 XTX is 49% faster than RX6900XT at 4K(TPU).
RTX 3090Ti(GA102 628.4mm2) -> RTX 4090(AD102 608.5mm2) is 45% faster at 4K(TPU).
Even if Nvidia released the Full AD102 It would be ~15% more performance in my opinion and that is 67% over RTX 3090Ti or 42% over 7900XTX.

N31 GCD is only 300mm2, they could have increased the size to 400mm2, which would result in a GCD with 144CU: 9216SP:576TMUs:288ROPs, this is 50% more than what N31 has. I think this would have been enough to fight against full AD102 at least in raster.
AMD underestimated Nvidia's willingness to make such a big chip on a new process, but that doesn't mean they are incompetent at developing GPUs.

Just mirroring the general opinion on anandtech forums that the current iteration of 4060 which is based on AD106 should really be a RTX 4050 and the RTX 4080 should use AD102 and AD103 should be an used for the RTX 4070. The basis of these arguments as you have kind of shown is based on the die size and the memory bus.

Maybe these people are perhaps exaggerating, to perhaps increase the disdain that Nvidia is ripping them off but if Nvidia was aggressive or AMD was more competitive, we could see these larger die sizes be used.

I think a fully enabled AD102 has more in the tank because if we look at how much the chip is disabled, its quite a bit more than the RTX 3090 to 3090 ti which which had a 12% difference in performance. This most important part however is considering how much l2 cache was cut. The RTX 4090 only has 72 out of 96MB of L2 cache, considering how much more performance AD102 has than GA102 but with largely the same bandwidth, this is likely quite the bottleneck. GA106 has 32mb of L2 cache, something with as much power as AD102 needs more than a measly 72mb.

Also with the current design parameters of Navi 3x series, I think what your more likely to see is a jump in specs akin to Navi 32 to Navi 31 for 400mm2 of add die. Basically a 33% increase in specs vs current Navi 31. What your suggesting is something asymmetrical to the current design of the Navi 3 series making the engineering even more difficult. Also packing it too tightly would limit clocks and just increase the problems AMD already has. You would also need to a couple more MCD making this a monstrous 700mm die and if AMD current problems with Navi 31 regarding clocks and power still existed(likely magnified with a larger die), you would likely just get something equal to the current RTX 4090 maybe even lose, while Nvidia releases a fully enabled AD102.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,688
5,318
136
Just mirroring the general opinion on anandtech forums that the current iteration of 4060 which is based on AD106 should really be a RTX 4050 and the RTX 4080 should use AD102 and AD103 should be an used for the RTX 4070. The basis of these arguments as you have kind of shown is based on the die size and the memory bus.

Maybe these people are perhaps exaggerating, to perhaps increase the disdain that Nvidia is ripping them off but if Nvidia was aggressive or AMD was more competitive, we could see these larger die sizes be used.

Again, you shouldn't be using die sizes as a comparison because of the massive wafer cost difference. This is going to be a reoccurring theme with Moore's Law being dead.
 

TESKATLIPOKA

Platinum Member
May 1, 2020
2,373
2,868
136
Just mirroring the general opinion on anandtech forums that the current iteration of 4060 which is based on AD106 should really be a RTX 4050 and the RTX 4080 should use AD102 and AD103 should be an used for the RTX 4070. The basis of these arguments as you have kind of shown is based on the die size and the memory bus.

Maybe these people are perhaps exaggerating, to perhaps increase the disdain that Nvidia is ripping them off but if Nvidia was aggressive or AMD was more competitive, we could see these larger die sizes be used.
I think the naming is not really the problem, but the associated price tag. Everyone here is angry because of a very small increase in performance/$ ratio.

I think a fully enabled AD102 has more in the tank because if we look at how much the chip is disabled, its quite a bit more than the RTX 3090 to 3090 ti which which had a 12% difference in performance. This most important part however is considering how much l2 cache was cut. The RTX 4090 only has 72 out of 96MB of L2 cache, considering how much more performance AD102 has than GA102 but with largely the same bandwidth, this is likely quite the bottleneck. GA106 has 32mb of L2 cache, something with as much power as AD102 needs more than a measly 72mb.
The reason why I wrote only 15% increase for full Ad102 compared to RTX 4090 is because of full Ada specs and RTX 4080's performance.
Full Ad102 would have only +12.5%SM(Cuda, TMU), +9% ROPs, +33% L2, +10% BW If they choose 23gbps GDDR6x.
RTX 4090 is only 27% faster raster and 31% faster RT at 4K than RTX 4080, despite having +68% SM(Cuda, TMU), +57% ROPs, +12.5% L2, +41% BW.

P.S. I didn't want to be OT, so for the N31 part of my reply It's here.
 
Reactions: Tlh97 and coercitiv

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,402
10,083
126
Just came by to reiterate that the entire 4000 series is overpriced garbage, it's not my problem if they can't make a compelling product, and defending this nonsense is highly suspect.
4000 series is "Woke!". Or maybe just "Broke!".
 
Reactions: Saylick

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
7,936
6,239
136
Just came by to reiterate that the entire 4000 series is overpriced garbage, it's not my problem if they can't make a compelling product, and defending this nonsense is highly suspect.

4090 is priced pretty decently. Basically doubled the raw compute capabilities of the 3090 for only an extra $100. The memory and bus may be the same, but you get a boatload of additional L2 cache with the 4090.

If you bought a 4090 it'll last for a long while and the rest of the stack has such awful price/performance improvement that it's hard to justify an upgrade. Really the only thing it won't get is whatever new DLSS stuff NVidia adds, but it's pretty clear how dry that well is.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,635
3,095
136
Hey gamer, wanna buy a Titan?

Yeah, exactly. Most of us knew Nvidia was trying to turn regular gamers into Titan buyers years ago. But that was when a Titan was $1000, which at the time was a big deal because that $1000 barrier was broken for a single GPU card. Now a "regular" high-end Geforce card costs closer to $2000 than $1000. Keep paying those prices guys, Nvidia loves you.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,688
5,318
136

Saylick

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2012
3,217
6,585
136
... and then recommends content creators to save up and buy the 4070Ti, 4080 or better yet the 4090. The higher you go, [...] the more sense it makes.
*facepalm*

Explains why Nvidia is claiming that Ada's $699+ sell-through has been higher than the previous two generations. One can simply have higher sell-through if the prices are raised and the same people are willing to pay the higher price. Also helps that the higher end cards were rolled out first before low end cards.
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
4,772
4,739
136
*facepalm*

Explains why Nvidia is claiming that Ada's $699+ sell-through has been higher than the previous two generations. One can simply have higher sell-through if the prices are raised and the same people are willing to pay the higher price. Also helps that the higher end cards were rolled out first before low end cards.
View attachment 81620
Yep, the massaging of data today in all fields is quite unique, at least to me. Truly, a post, or at least, partial truth world.

Installed Base Needs Upgrade. I think that statement will be tested.
 

Ranulf

Platinum Member
Jul 18, 2001
2,388
1,270
136
Installed Base upgrade indeed. Their own marketing slides aren't real convincing to get me to upgrade a 2060 Super, 4 years later to a same price 4060ti with frame generation. All for 1080p.
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,630
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Installed Base upgrade indeed. Their own marketing slides aren't real convincing to get me to upgrade a 2060 Super, 4 years later to a same price 4060ti with frame generation. All for 1080p.
Similar here, I have been delaying a display upgrade for years due to the cost of cards. Even going to a 2K screen will set me back $800-ish minimum. That’s insane.
 
Reactions: Tlh97 and Ranulf

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
7,936
6,239
136

4060's release might be getting pushed up a bit and into June.

It would be odd for them to move the release date up. Maybe they think they just need something at $300 to get some sales, but I don't know if this will do that much better than the Ti given it still has 8 GB VRAM and is on paper worse performance per dollar.

Unless their plan is to release something even less appealing so that people want to buy a 4060 Ti instead.
 

Aapje

Golden Member
Mar 21, 2022
1,434
1,954
106
It would be odd for them to move the release date up. Maybe they think they just need something at $300 to get some sales, but I don't know if this will do that much better than the Ti given it still has 8 GB VRAM and is on paper worse performance per dollar.
They probably saw the 7600 selling decently and the 4060 Ti not selling at all, so they decided to put something up against the 7600.

And I do expect the 4060 to sell far better than the 4060 Ti, since it should effectively be a slightly cheaper 3060 8 GB with DLSS 3. The lower price makes a big difference, since low-end buyers tend to be really budget-constrained, but often have poor knowledge, so they often just buy the most expensive card that just fits in their budget, from a brand they trust. That's why pretty poor cards like the 3050 and 1650 did sell decently.

The 4060 Ti is too expensive to benefit enough from this, but the 4060 is probably cheap enough to do so.
 

Dribble

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2005
2,076
611
136
You gotta remember that most cards sell in pre-built PC's to people that aren't experts. I suspect the PC manufacturers who buy most of these cards are pushing for a card at that price point as it's key for the PC's they sell. They just need a new card with new features so everyone wants to buy it over last years PC. They will be quite happy with the 4060 even if it's not that great - as long as it's faster than a 3060 and has new features (i.e. DLSS3 ) it ticks their required boxes. Which is why Nvidia can get away with smaller upgrades in performance - for most of the sales base it doesn't matter.
 
Jul 27, 2020
16,820
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for most of the sales base it doesn't matter.
Yeah. Joe Sixpack Jr. will tell dad, I want gaming PC. Joe Sixpack picks a pre-built within his budget. Both probably won't know what they want or need, as long as it runs something stupid like Team Fortress or Fortnite.
 

MrTeal

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,578
1,725
136
It'll be interesting to see how the 4060 does relative to the 3060. For shaders it's even more of a gap to the 4060 Ti than 3060 was to the 3060 Ti (70.6% vs 73.7%), though it has the same bandwidth as AD106. With how the 4060 Ti is only marginally faster than the 3060 Ti, it's hard imagine that the 4060 will beat the 3060 by any large margin. It might even perform worse if games where texture quality gets dropped with 8GB of VRAM.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
6,257
12,196
136
For shaders it's even more of a gap to the 4060 Ti than 3060 was to the 3060 Ti (70.6% vs 73.7%), though it has the same bandwidth as AD106.
Has smaller L2 though, 24MB vs. 32MB for the 4060Ti, which brings "effective bandwidth" down. Nvidia quoted a higher perf delta for 4060 vs. 3060 than 4060Ti vs 3060Ti, so I would assume the drop in memory subsystem performance is more than matched by the drop in compute.
 
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