Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

[manly]

I did say that. I spent two years in combat in Vietnam. What a fucking waste of lives and money that shit was. The US should protect it's shores and borders, NOT try to police the planet.

I thank you for your service, and can understand your beliefs on proper use of military force.

In any event, it's almost unanimous in this thread that the U.S. has no military role in a possible invasion of Ukraine. So why are you even arguing about that? At most, we'll support Ukraine with some modest weaponry but that's unlikely to play an important role in their defense against Russia. Everyone knows if Russia invades, Ukraine is fucked.

So the question is, can we even stop that from happening? As a global superpower, we can and should play a diplomatic role in trying to convince Putin not to cross a red line. We may not see that Ukraine has any meaning to our national defense, but they're still a fledgling democracy. If Putin can annex Ukraine without consequences, China will laugh because they know we would never stop a forceful invasion of Taiwan either.

Maybe we don't have enough leverage on Putin, but maybe he'll care that we're seriously considering treating Russia like a pariah state blocked off from international banking and finance. Honestly I don't know, but simplistically saying "not our problem" is incredibly short-sighted. When you're the only superpower remaining, some faraway problems are kind of your problems too.

 

[cytg111]

Was Ukraine not always part of USSR until it feel down and broke apart? What business does US have when it comes to Ukraine and Russia. Honestly this is not US fight and we should just stay out of it. If Europe got a problem with what Russia about to do, let them deal with it themselves.

Well... you see, after the breakdown of USSR, Ukraine had all these nukes lying around.
And Ukraine was like, this is great, we was has protections from evil doers of evil doing right.
But then it was like, the US and like NATO right, was like, yo dude, all them nukes, we dont want an accident, burning suns like Chernobyl and shit right?
So the US was like, Ukraine? Give us those nukes and we promise we protect you from evil Russ, ok?

Ukraine was like. Ok bro, cause we like west and Nato and freedom and shit.

So Ukraine turned over the nukes.

Webman2021, in retrospect, that was a fucking BAD move by Ukraine was it not? I mean .. .Where the fuck is that protection now?

 

[cytg111]

I have colleagues that are Russians and according to them, Puting don't give a crap about US sanctions. Yes it will impact him but it mainly will impact the Russian people which honestly he don't give a crap about. Putin got property on other people names such as family members that US is highly unlikely to touch. According to them, Putin wants Ukraine for two reason and it's a) he wants much more territory between NATO and Russia. Putin is afraid that Ukraine will eventually join NATO and it will be put American forces on Russia doorstep. 2nd reason he wants Ukrain is he wants to get a much territory back as possible that USSR had. Belarus likely soon to join Russia as well.

And TADA .. Russia is on NATO's doorstep. Get the fuck out of here.

 

[Bitek]

Was Ukraine not always part of USSR until it feel down and broke apart? What business does US have when it comes to Ukraine and Russia. Honestly this is not US fight and we should just stay out of it. If Europe got a problem with what Russia about to do, let them deal with it themselves.

Capitulator. Weak.


This is the sentiment Russia has been cultivating online with their social media misinformation campaign.

Russia is a pissant country with a tiny economy but run by thieves, thugs and murderers. Yet the trumpy maga right would have us quivering before them.

Crush them if they invade and rid the world of Putin's criminality.

 

[sandorski]

Well... you see, after the breakdown of USSR, Ukraine had all these nukes lying around.
And Ukraine was like, this is great, we was has protections from evil doers of evil doing right.
But then it was like, the US and like NATO right, was like, yo dude, all them nukes, we dont want an accident, burning suns like Chernobyl and shit right?
So the US was like, Ukraine? Give us those nukes and we promise we protect you from evil Russ, ok?

Ukraine was like. Ok bro, cause we like west and Nato and freedom and shit.

So Ukraine turned over the nukes.

Webman2021, in retrospect, that was a fucking BAD move by Ukraine was it not? I mean .. .Where the fuck is that protection now?

Not a great solution, but giving Ukraine some Nukes might solve this issue.

 

[pcgeek11]

Not a great solution, but giving Ukraine some Nukes might solve this issue.

LOL, No. It would only speed up a nuclear exchange... BOOM.

 

[Juiblex]

I believe as some have eluded to already, there is a much bigger plan in the works.

Russia and China are most definitely linked at this point IMHO. If Russian takes Ukraine, and the USA intervenes there I believe China will move forward with Taiwan. The USA isn't going to fight both Russia and China. Likewise on the China front. At this point I'd say either Ukraine or Taiwan will be taken one way or another.

 

[cytg111]

Cause the US has shown weakness, cause GQP.

Good job.

 

[zinfamous]

Was Ukraine not always part of USSR until it feel down and broke apart? What business does US have when it comes to Ukraine and Russia. Honestly this is not US fight and we should just stay out of it. If Europe got a problem with what Russia about to do, let them deal with it themselves.

You do realize that much of the USSR involved sovereign nations that were occupied by Russia, right? Why do you define USSR as the way things should be?

You're quite the naive, unread person, aren't you?

 

[mikeymikec]

Interesting how conservatives here have gone from "hoax!" to "not our problem". Maybe that's just standard policy these days (e.g. Russia, climate change, covid), along with harassment of minorities and imposition of pseudo-religious beliefs on people who don't share those beliefs.

 

[compcons]

We could stop selling senators to Russia.

It will be quite telling when certain members of congress rally behind Russia instead of supporting non-violent actions like sanctions. It will be a who's who's list of the traitors in our capitol doing shady stuff with the Russians.

 

[gothuevos]

Capitulator. Weak.



Crush them if they invade and rid the world of Putin's criminality.

So how far should we be willing to escalate?

 

[gothuevos]

I believe as some have eluded to already, there is a much bigger plan in the works.

Russia and China are most definitely linked at this point IMHO. If Russian takes Ukraine, and the USA intervenes there I believe China will move forward with Taiwan. The USA isn't going to fight both Russia and China. Likewise on the China front. At this point I'd say either Ukraine or Taiwan will be taken one way or another.

Thanks Biden!

/s

 

[fskimospy]

Well... you see, after the breakdown of USSR, Ukraine had all these nukes lying around.
And Ukraine was like, this is great, we was has protections from evil doers of evil doing right.
But then it was like, the US and like NATO right, was like, yo dude, all them nukes, we dont want an accident, burning suns like Chernobyl and shit right?
So the US was like, Ukraine? Give us those nukes and we promise we protect you from evil Russ, ok?

Ukraine was like. Ok bro, cause we like west and Nato and freedom and shit.

So Ukraine turned over the nukes.

Webman2021, in retrospect, that was a fucking BAD move by Ukraine was it not? I mean .. .Where the fuck is that protection now?

That’s not really accurate. Here’s the set of commitments put forth in the Budapest Memorandum:

Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders

1. Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
2. Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to influence their politics.
3. Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
4. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
5. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.

So the US, UK, and Russia pledged not to invade or nuke Ukraine themselves and to take it to the security council if anyone else did. There was NEVER a guarantee of protection against Russia outside of that. The US and the UK abided by their obligations under the treaty, Russia obviously did not.

In retrospect it does appear giving up their nukes was a bad idea (although it’s far from certain they could have cracked the codes to activate them and/or adequately maintain them.) That wasn’t based on the idea that the US would militarily intervene if Ukraine were attacked though.

 

[Jaskalas]

Not sure how sanctions would affect the Russian people here as you would be sanctioning Putin personally and not Russia the country.

If Russia invades Ukraine, there should be a naval blockade.

 

[K1052]

In retrospect it does appear giving up their nukes was a bad idea (although it’s far from certain they could have cracked the codes to activate them and/or adequately maintain them.) That wasn’t based on the idea that the US would militarily intervene if Ukraine were attacked though.

Probably was sufficient expertise obtainable to clandestinely rebuild the Soviet warheads or just swap the cores into new hardware that you fully control.

 

[Bitek]

So how far should we be willing to escalate?

The precedent of Desert Storm when Saddam invaded Kuwait and a US led global coalition drove him back across the border comes to mind.

Ask yourself this... If we don't similarly protect Ukraine like we did Kuwait, what message does that send?

Why? They don't have oil? We're scared of Putin and will only fight down to the levels of the '91 Iraqi army?
Or has the US lost it's nerve and position of global leader and defender of democracies? We'll just turn our backs to allies and let thugs roll over them, kill them and steal their land?

We do that, where does Putin stop? Didn't stop after Georgia, didn't stop after Crimea, won't stop after Ukraine.

Weakness invites war.

 

[Bitek]

I believe as some have eluded to already, there is a much bigger plan in the works.

Russia and China are most definitely linked at this point IMHO. If Russian takes Ukraine, and the USA intervenes there I believe China will move forward with Taiwan. The USA isn't going to fight both Russia and China. Likewise on the China front. At this point I'd say either Ukraine or Taiwan will be taken one way or another.

If we don't defend Ukraine, why wouldn't China move on Taiwan?

If we back down to a middling power like Russia, then China has nothing to fear from US.

 

[Racan]

 

[Racan]

The precedent of Desert Storm when Saddam invaded Kuwait and a US led global coalition drove him back across the border comes to mind.

Ask yourself this... If we don't similarly protect Ukraine like we did Kuwait, what message does that send?

Why? They don't have oil? We're scared of Putin and will only fight down to the levels of the '91 Iraqi army?
Or has the US lost it's nerve and position of global leader and defender of democracies? We'll just turn our backs to allies and let thugs roll over them, kill them and steal their land?

We do that, where does Putin stop? Didn't stop after Georgia, didn't stop after Crimea, won't stop after Ukraine.

Weakness invites war.

Russia shouldn't be allowed get away with an invasion scot free but outright war with Russia will end up thermonuclear.

 

[Bitek]

Russia shouldn't be allowed get away with an invasion scot free but outright war with Russia will end up thermonuclear.

No. No regime change, no crossing the border, but invasion must be repelled. They are not NATO, so we don't owe them that. Preventing further war is our interest however.

But maybe they decide to join NATO after invasion is repelled... If there is no invasion threat, then they don't need to be in NATO...

If the Western democracies can credibility draw this line and Russia believe this outcome, then their gambit must be very carefully weighed, and far less likely to be tried.

 

[Bitek]

Additionally, when our threats are credible, China will be motivated to back channel to Putin and deescalate. They have no interest in a widescale and destructive war involving their neighbor or largest trading partner(s).

They are too busy building and prospering for this nonsense.

We can let them know and encourage this.

We won't start a fight, but we will finish it.

 

[weblooker2021]

Hmm, bad news. I think ideally there should be some way to make China and Russia fight, and take care of each other for us. Outside of that, perhaps just severe sanctions to start with, and if that doesn't work, ban all travel and trade to and from Russia.

You want WW3 to start? That is what you're basically suggesting as if Russia and China ever somehow go to war,it will result in WW3 and use of nuclear weapons will happen.

The precedent of Desert Storm when Saddam invaded Kuwait and a US led global coalition drove him back across the border comes to mind.

Ask yourself this... If we don't similarly protect Ukraine like we did Kuwait, what message does that send?

Why? They don't have oil? We're scared of Putin and will only fight down to the levels of the '91 Iraqi army?
Or has the US lost it's nerve and position of global leader and defender of democracies? We'll just turn our backs to allies and let thugs roll over them, kill them and steal their land?

We do that, where does Putin stop? Didn't stop after Georgia, didn't stop after Crimea, won't stop after Ukraine.

Weakness invites war.

Russia is not Iraq, they have the capability to defend themselves even without the use of nuclear weapons. If world to start war with Russia, it will ultimately result in nuclear war and that is end of the world. Nuclear war will set humanity back 100-200 years.

 

[Muse]

Whatever happens Europe should take the lead in this fiasco and we should support them with extreme sanctions.

How will Germany pan out since they have their pipeline from Russia? Hmmmm

From today's NYTimes article:

“We will not attack, strike, invade, quote unquote, whatever, Ukraine,” Mr. Ryabkov said. He said the Russian troops around Ukraine’s border were conducting training exercises.

Also on Wednesday, Mr. Kuleba spoke by phone with Josep Borrell Fontelles, the European Union’s top diplomat, about economic sanctions the bloc could impose on Russia and additional financial support for Ukraine, the Ukrainian foreign ministry said.

“Every country in the European Union should understand that, though the price of deterring Russia is high, the cost of stopping a new war will be higher” if it starts, Mr. Kuleba said after the call, local media reported.

Mr. Kuleba said the two discussed economic policies to both deter Russia and to support Ukraine. The European diplomat, “agreed that one of Russia’s goals is to destabilize Ukraine” economically and that the European Union was ready to help, Mr. Kuleba said.

 

[BoomerD]

Additionally, when our threats are credible, China will be motivated to back channel to Putin and deescalate. They have no interest in a widescale and destructive war involving their neighbor or largest trading partner(s).

They are too busy building and prospering for this nonsense.

We can let them know and encourage this.

We won't start a fight, but we will finish it.

Unfortunately, we don't have the best record"finishing" fights lately...

Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan...