Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

Eug

Lifer

Mar 11, 2000

23,870

1,438

126

• Nov 10, 2020

• #26

name99 said:

These are very much the three low-end machines. Low-end means, uh, low-end...

Don't waste time complaining that high-end doesn't exist; the only interesting question is how many months until Apple announce it.

Click to expand...

They are selling the Intel Macs alongside the M1 Macs. The 13" Intel MacBook Pro can be configured with up to 32 GB RAM, and the Intel Mac mini can be configured with up to 64 GB RAM. But they are the higher end Intel models.

This is classic Apple. They hamstring the first iteration with something, only to fix it in the second generation.

IvanKaramazov said:

The MBA replaces all Intel models, but the MBP only replaces the lower-end, two-port Intel models, and the high-end Intel models remain in the lineup. Same for Mac Mini.

The M1 is probably an A14X with added IO and such, and I'm guessing the 16GB RAM ceiling and the 2 port limit is associated with that. I expect the M1 will be faster for both CPU and GPU than Tiger Lake, but it's pretty clearly a first foray into the world of Arm Macs. Will be interesting to see if the Bloomberg 8x4 core, which will certainly appear in the 24" iMac next year, also gets backloaded into the high-end Macbook Pro 13 and Mac Mini models. Otherwise we're probably waiting for Fall 2021 to see 13" Macbook Pros with 32 GB RAM, 4 ports, etc.

Click to expand...

Sounds about right.

The low end M1, high end Intel does make sense though. Cuz lower end consumers are less likely to be locked to Intel-specific software.

 

Upvote 0 Downvote

tamz_msc

Diamond Member

Jan 5, 2017

3,865

3,729

136

• Nov 10, 2020

• #27

name99 said:

Were the games they showed running native? Or were they x86 originals deliberately shown to make the point that "we're good enough, even at emulation"?
You get my point; emulated doesn't show us what the GPU can do under ideal circumstances.

Click to expand...

Only Baldur's Gate 3 might have required emulation - the rest were titles unknown to me which I'm hoping are MacOS/iOS exclusive titles which might be running native. We'll need more details.

 

Upvote 0 Downvote

A

awesomedeluxe

Member

Feb 12, 2020

69

23

41

• Nov 10, 2020

• #28

I guess this is the biggest question left about the M1. Anyone want to take a guess? I'll venture it's just plain old dual channel LPDDR4.

 

Upvote 0 Downvote

N

naukkis

Senior member

Jun 5, 2002

930

808

136

• Nov 10, 2020

• #29

So M1 actually uses HBM memory?

 

Upvote 0 Downvote

tamz_msc

Diamond Member

Jan 5, 2017

3,865

3,729

136

• Nov 10, 2020

• #30

naukkis said:

So M1 actually uses HBM memory?

Click to expand...

LPDDR4x.

 

Upvote 0 Downvote

N

name99

Senior member

Sep 11, 2010

511

395

136

• Nov 10, 2020

• #31

naukkis said:

So M1 actually uses HBM memory?

Click to expand...

What are you talking about?

 

Upvote 0 Downvote

SarahKerrigan

Senior member

Oct 12, 2014

735

2,035

136

• Nov 10, 2020

• #32

name99 said:

Were the games they showed running native? Or were they x86 originals deliberately shown to make the point that "we're good enough, even at emulation"?
You get my point; emulated doesn't show us what the GPU can do under ideal circumstances.

Click to expand...

The Baldur's Gate devs were in the "porting our software is easy" video, so I would be surprised if the video of it wasn't native - but anything's possible, I suppose.

 

Reactions: Tlh97 and name99

Upvote 0 Downvote

I

IvanKaramazov

Member

Jun 29, 2020

56

102

66

• Nov 10, 2020

• #33

SarahKerrigan said:

The Baldur's Gate devs were in the "porting our software is easy" video, so I would be surprised if the video of it wasn't native - but anything's possible, I suppose.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I expect Baldur's Gate is native. Larian is also bringing Divinity Original Sin 2 to the iPad sometime soon, so it seems like they're supporting Apple's Arm efforts in general.

EDIT: Also note this tweet from the head of the Apple Silicon Graphics Drivers Team, who explicitly calls at Larian as a partner.

 

Last edited: Nov 10, 2020

Upvote 0 Downvote

Eug

Lifer

Mar 11, 2000

23,870

1,438

126

• Nov 10, 2020

• #34

Memories of A12X vs A12Z:

There are 7 core and 8 core GPU variants of M1.

I guess this is Apple's version of binning.

MacBook Air - 7-core or 8-core GPU
MacBook Pro - 8-core GPU
Mac mini - 8-core GPU

 

Reactions: Tlh97 and IvanKaramazov

Upvote 0 Downvote

I

IvanKaramazov

Member

Jun 29, 2020

56

102

66

• Nov 10, 2020

• #35

Eug said:

Memories of A12X vs A12Z:

There are 7 core and 8 core GPU variants of M1.

I guess this is Apple's version of binning.

MacBook Air - 7-core or 8-core GPU
MacBook Pro - 8-core GPU
Mac mini - 8-core GPU

Click to expand...

I feel like it gives some room for speculation about eventual SKUs in the future. 7 core binned chips for the entry MBA and 8 core for the high-end MBA and entry MBP13. Presumably in the next generation something like a more-CPU-core M2X binned for less functional GPU cores on the middle MBP13 and full-cores on the high-end MBP13 and the MBP16, and so forth.

 

Upvote 0 Downvote

D

Doug S

Platinum Member

Feb 8, 2020

2,833

4,819

136

• Nov 10, 2020

• #36

IvanKaramazov said:

The M1 is probably an A14X with added IO and such

Click to expand...

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the M1 and A14X are the same silicon, just with a fuse or two blown to cause it to identity itself differently. The M1 has an ISP, which probably doesn't have much function on a laptop that has a single camera of comparatively low quality (versus what you get on modern phones)

 

Reactions: awesomedeluxe, Tlh97, teejee and 1 other person

Upvote 0 Downvote

Eug

Lifer

Mar 11, 2000

23,870

1,438

126

• Nov 10, 2020

• #37

Doug S said:

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the M1 and A14X are the same silicon, just with a fuse or two blown to cause it to identity itself differently. The M1 has an ISP, which probably doesn't have much function on a laptop that has a single camera of comparatively low quality (versus what you get on modern phones)

Click to expand...

Couldn't they leverage the ISP for some image software?

 

Upvote 0 Downvote

Gideon

Golden Member

Nov 27, 2007

1,804

4,245

136

• Nov 10, 2020

• #38

Interesting. If they want to continue with the single SoC design for the 15" macbook nad imac, they probably need to use HBM2 there (at least i hope they do), otherwise the graphics perf will take a dive compared to last gen

 

Upvote 0 Downvote

I

IvanKaramazov

Member

Jun 29, 2020

56

102

66

• Nov 10, 2020

• #39

Doug S said:

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the M1 and A14X are the same silicon, just with a fuse or two blown to cause it to identity itself differently. The M1 has an ISP, which probably doesn't have much function on a laptop that has a single camera of comparatively low quality (versus what you get on modern phones)

Click to expand...

Worth noting that they are using the ISP to attempt to sharpen the image on the webcam. I can't imagine you can do much to improve that terrible 720p camera, but I suppose we'll see.

 

Upvote 0 Downvote

Eug

Lifer

Mar 11, 2000

23,870

1,438

126

• Nov 10, 2020

• #40

M1? Bah! I have m3.

 

Reactions: richierich1212

Upvote 0 Downvote

D

Doug S

Platinum Member

Feb 8, 2020

2,833

4,819

136

• Nov 10, 2020

• #41

Gideon said:

Interesting. If they want to continue with the single SoC design for the 15" macbook nad imac, they probably need to use HBM2 there (at least i hope they do), otherwise the graphics perf will take a dive compared to last gen

Click to expand...

I suspect the rumored 8+4 core chip will slide in those (and maybe be offered as an optional upgrade for the 13" MBP) and it will also have more GPU cores.

I would also not be surprised if that 8+4 chip was able to operate as a chiplet so 2 or 4 of them could be used to create a 16 or 32 core MCM for the high end stuff. But they said the transition would take two years (like I had previously guessed) so they have plenty of time to do a monolithic design for those should they choose to do so.

I wonder how a Mac Pro with 32 cores taken from a 3nm A16 would do against contemporary Intel and AMD based workstations?

 

Reactions: SarahKerrigan, Tlh97 and Gideon

Upvote 0 Downvote

E

Entropyq3

Junior Member

Jan 24, 2005

22

22

81

• Nov 10, 2020

• #42

trivik12 said:

even ram seem to be integrated into SOC !!! Also its LPDDR4x and not LPDDR5.

Click to expand...

I can’t find that anywhere. Where’s this info from?
Likewise for the cache-size data.

 

Upvote 0 Downvote

D

Doug S

Platinum Member

Feb 8, 2020

2,833

4,819

136

• Nov 10, 2020

• #43

Entropyq3 said:

I can’t find that anywhere. Where’s this info from?

Click to expand...

The RAM isn't integrated into the SoC, it would be integrated into the package via stacking. Just like it is in the iPhone/iPad SoCs. Or so he's assuming.

 

Upvote 0 Downvote

D

Doug S

Platinum Member

Feb 8, 2020

2,833

4,819

136

• Nov 10, 2020

• #44

IvanKaramazov said:

Worth noting that they are using the ISP to attempt to sharpen the image on the webcam. I can't imagine you can do much to improve that terrible 720p camera, but I suppose we'll see.

Click to expand...

That's hardly a computationally demanding process, certainly not worth using an ISP for unless you already have one laying around.

 

Upvote 0 Downvote

E

Entropyq3

Junior Member

Jan 24, 2005

22

22

81

• Nov 10, 2020

• #45

Doug S said:

The RAM isn't integrated into the SoC, it would be integrated into the package via stacking. Just like it is in the iPhone/iPad SoCs. Or so he's assuming.

Click to expand...

The CGI assembly videos can be interpreted. I was basically asking the OP, Eug, where he got memory type, and cache size from. Didn’t see either in the presentation.

 

Upvote 0 Downvote

Eug

Lifer

Mar 11, 2000

23,870

1,438

126

• Nov 10, 2020

• #46

Here is AnandTech's M1 deep-dive article:

Apple Announces The Apple Silicon M1: Ditching x86 - What to Expect, Based on A14

www.anandtech.com

 

Reactions: Etain05, Gideon, shady28 and 2 others

Upvote 0 Downvote

I

IvanKaramazov

Member

Jun 29, 2020

56

102

66

• Nov 10, 2020

• #47

Doug S said:

That's hardly a computationally demanding process, certainly not worth using an ISP for unless you already have one laying around.

Click to expand...

For sure, I expect they're using it because it's there, essentially. Not a bad side benefit but I do wonder if they'll use it for anything else or if it's mostly wasted space on the Mac?

 

Upvote 0 Downvote

Eug

Lifer

Mar 11, 2000

23,870

1,438

126

• Nov 10, 2020

• #48

Entropyq3 said:

The CGI assembly videos can be interpreted. I was basically asking the OP, Eug, where he got memory type, and cache size from. Didn’t see either in the presentation.

Click to expand...

Hmm... I didn't realize that Apple had listed even more cache, separate for the high-efficiency cores. I'll adjust the first post.





As for the DDR4 memory, they didn't actually say that for the M1 chip, but they were describing a non-M1 logic board design like this:



But then they go on to say all of that has been combined into M1.



I think it's reasonable to believe M1 uses DDR4 and not DDR5.

 

Last edited: Nov 10, 2020

Reactions: amd6502

Upvote 0 Downvote

N

name99

Senior member

Sep 11, 2010

511

395

136

• Nov 10, 2020

• #49

Entropyq3 said:

I can’t find that anywhere. Where’s this info from?
Likewise for the cache-size data.

Click to expand...

Delete this, My bad. I misinterpreted something that slipped by during the presentation.

I'm no longer certain the RAM is LPDDR4, could go either way.
Anyone have better evidence.

 

Upvote 0 Downvote

Gideon

Golden Member

Nov 27, 2007

1,804

4,245

136

• Nov 10, 2020

• #50

Eug said:

Here is AnandTech's M1 deep-dive article:

Apple Announces The Apple Silicon M1: Ditching x86 - What to Expect, Based on A14

www.anandtech.com

Click to expand...

An insanely wide core running at least a little north of 3 GHz. Can't wait to see benchmarks.

At least this should put the rumors to rest about apple only achieving great benchmark scores via passong stuff to fixed function units.

 

Upvote 0 Downvote