Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

adroc_thurston · Mar 9, 2024

tamz_msc said:
There is no architecture-specific restriction on the size of the L2 in this approach.

Yes there are, only so many ways/sets possible until power goes boom.

SiliconFly said:
Zen5 may take the overall performance crown, but not by much I guess. The difference should be in single digit. I'm thinking like 5% maximum.

You're funny I'll give you that.

cortexa99 · Mar 9, 2024

After seeing MLID's claim, a guy called bullsh1tbuster on X shared his view on weibo #1 #2 (have same avatar, ya same guy) after complete testing LionCove IPC.

Lion Cove IPC and general architecture testing completed
Hmm... It's a long story
It is a tock.

But like Meteor Lake
I think these two core are more inclined to power
Instead of peak performance
It is also necessary to carry the latency penalty of chiplet D2D FDI.

It means that the score running, especially the desktop end, may not be obvious.
However, the overall experience (heat dissipation, noise, responsiveness, weight) of the mobile terminal will be significantly improved due to the increase in perf/w.

Even the endurance may need to be added with some oil....
I think MTL/ARL will be very good lesson

So LionCove would have major archtecture changes which would be enough to make ARL being a "tock" and more IPC but still heavily inclined to efficiency. Sounds like clock regression is inevitable. Would MLID's "25%-35% more perf on same core count" being true?

igor_kavinski · Mar 9, 2024

Hulk said:
Unfortunately he made a 22 minute video that tells us absolutely nothing.

That's why I skipped through it without listening to his crap and just read the onscreen slides etc. He should become a university professor so students can get a break and sleep in his class.

coercitiv · Mar 9, 2024

cortexa99 said:
So LionCove would have major archtecture changes which would be enough to make ARL being a "tock" and more IPC but still heavily inclined to efficiency. Sounds like clock regression is inevitable. Would MLID's "25%-35% more perf on same core count" being true?

If only Intel told us that Lion Cove would be optimized for power efficiency, then we would not have to do all this guessing games based on MLID beads and tarot cards. Like, they could have mentioned it casually somewhere, even in a leaked slide for some other product. /s

igor_kavinski · Mar 9, 2024

I think MTL/ARL will be very good lesson

Just poach some dang good engineers and let them take the lead instead of wasting time learning expensive lessons.

(in an exasperated Napoleon Dynamite tone) Intel, gosh you suck!

tamz_msc · Mar 9, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
Yes there are, only so many ways/sets possible until power goes boom.

So if you're going for a fatter -mont core without being as fat as -Cove, then just readjust the core count accordingly while increasing L2$, within bounds of course.

That is what the Hot Chips slide is essentially saying.

igor_kavinski · Mar 9, 2024

Hulk said:
My curiosity remains as to how Intel accomplishes the magic act of surpassing the raw performance of that CPU?

I would think Intel would only be concerned about surpassing 14900KS performance with the 15900KS. So they've got until March-April 2025 for that. Plenty of time. It also lets them sell more of their 14900KS stock for those who already have a Z690/790 mobo and it just makes more sense for them to upgrade rather than change the entire platform for almost no gain in 2024.

SiliconFly · Mar 9, 2024

adroc_thurston said:
You're funny I'll give you that.

Yep. I'm hilarious.

SiliconFly · Mar 9, 2024

Just went thru more RU stuff. It actually appears to be on track. Attached a RU patent filed in 2020. If RU appears in Nova Lake, and if it works as advertised, it might be huge. They casually claim an increase of 3X to 4X ST perf!

Link: https://file.io/yaUy4MhWhJJR

igor_kavinski · Mar 9, 2024

SiliconFly said:
If RU appears in Nova Lake

Nova Lake Core Ultra 9 is rumored to have LLC of 180MB. That alone is gonna be insane, coming from Intel.

Intel Nova Lake X3D CPU - Everything You Need to Know

Indie Kings brings you the latest PC game deals, Steam game bundles and game trailers!

www.indiekings.com

maddie · Mar 9, 2024

SiliconFly said:
Just went thru more RU stuff. It actually appears to be on track. Attached a RU patent filed in 2020. If RU appears in Nova Lake, and if it works as advertised, it might be huge. They casually claim an increase of 3X to 4X ST perf!

Link: https://file.io/yaUy4MhWhJJR

Work started on this in 2008. We should also remember that quite a few of the majors were invested in SoftMachines before Intel bought them outright. I would also think that if the tech is feasible, we will see it in some form in other company designs.

If I remember correctly, Intel was not one of the early investors.

Saylick · Mar 9, 2024

Just great. Olrak put out a public Google Doc where everyone and their mothers can put in their guesses. There’s even a familiar person(s) whom we have in these forums. Now, all the Youtube “leakers” are going to be running around claiming “exclusive “ sources with this info…

ARL-S and Zen 5 Desktop Speculation

RULE RULE This spreadsheet is unmoderated. No spamming and please respect what others have written. I will stop making these public speculation spreadsheets once someone breaks the rule. That's all, have fun. (By the way, the tabs are at the bottom.)

docs.google.com

Hulk · Mar 9, 2024

igor_kavinski said:
I would think Intel would only be concerned about surpassing 14900KS performance with the 15900KS. So they've got until March-April 2025 for that. Plenty of time. It also lets them sell more of their 14900KS stock for those who already have a Z690/790 mobo and it just makes more sense for them to upgrade rather than change the entire platform for almost no gain in 2024.

True. But the 13900K was more performant than the 12900KS and the 14900K was more performant than the 13900KS (same ST frequency, faster MT).

I will be of the opinion that if the "15900K" is less performant than the 14900KS then ARL was a step back in terms of performance.

Joe NYC · Mar 9, 2024

Saylick said:
Just great. Olrak put out a public Google Doc where everyone and their mothers can put in their guesses. There’s even a familiar person(s) whom we have in these forums. Now, all the Youtube “leakers” are going to be running around claiming “exclusive “ sources with this info…

ARL-S and Zen 5 Desktop Speculation

RULE RULE This spreadsheet is unmoderated. No spamming and please respect what others have written. I will stop making these public speculation spreadsheets once someone breaks the rule. That's all, have fun. (By the way, the tabs are at the bottom.)

docs.google.com

From the spreadsheet:
RPC - I am assuming Raptor Cove - from Raptor Lake Refresh
LNC - I am assuming Lion Cove - which is expected to be the P-core of Lunar Lake

What is the name of the P-Core in Arrow Lake? I am assuming it is not LNC. I was assuming it is is a derivative of Redwood Cove...
But then, the name of the spreadsheet tab is: "Arrow Lake-S Speculation"

I am a little bit confused here...

FlameTail · Mar 9, 2024

Joe NYC said:
From the spreadsheet:
RPC - I am assuming Raptor Cove - from Raptor Lake Refresh
LNC - I am assuming is the Lion Cove - which is expected to be the P-core of Lunar Lake

What is the name of the P-Core in Arrow Lake? I am assuming it is not LNC. I was assuming it is is a derivative of Redwood Cove...
But then, the name of the spreadsheet tab is: "Arrow Lake-S Speculation"

I am a little bit confused here...

Arrow Lake P-core is Lion Cove aka LNC

Joe NYC · Mar 9, 2024

FlameTail said:
Arrow Lake P-core is Lion Cove aka LNC

Same as the P-Core of Lunar Lake?

FlameTail · Mar 9, 2024

Joe NYC said:
Same as the P-Core of Lunar Lake?

Yes yes. If you have been following this thread, you would know that.

FlameTail · Mar 9, 2024

Saylick said:
Just great. Olrak put out a public Google Doc where everyone and their mothers can put in their guesses. There’s even a familiar person(s) whom we have in these forums. Now, all the Youtube “leakers” are going to be running around claiming “exclusive “ sources with this info…

ARL-S and Zen 5 Desktop Speculation

RULE RULE This spreadsheet is unmoderated. No spamming and please respect what others have written. I will stop making these public speculation spreadsheets once someone breaks the rule. That's all, have fun. (By the way, the tabs are at the bottom.)

docs.google.com

They should also add a tab for upcoming ARM cores (Cortex X5, Apple A18, Oryon Pegasus etc...)

Joe NYC · Mar 9, 2024

FlameTail said:
Yes yes. If you have been following this thread, you would know that.

Well, I skipped a couple of months of this thread. Thanks for the clarification.

mikk · Mar 9, 2024

Lenovo Yoga Pro 7 14 with Core Ultra 7 155H tested from Notebookcheck: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenov...Intel-Arc-confronts-Radeon-780M.810926.0.html

This is the fastest Meteor Lake so far on Notebookcheck. Battery life WiFi Websurfing is quite good as well, there is clearly a trend that Meteor Lake has a superior battery life over Phoenix in most of the typical laptop workloads like office, internet, video playback. This is where Raptor Lake suffered.

naukkis · Mar 9, 2024

maddie said:
Work started on this in 2008. We should also remember that quite a few of the majors were invested in SoftMachines before Intel bought them outright. I would also think that if the tech is feasible, we will see it in some form in other company designs.

If I remember correctly, Intel was not one of the early investors.

I speculated in risc-v threads that cpu designs should go towards split register file designs. VISC is nothing more than split register file core with software abstraction layer - which isn't way I see split register cpu should be made but instead it should rely on ISA that allows using split register files efficiently. CPU front-end have to see which instruction paths share which parts of registers. I really don't see that Intel could make that happening efficiently on x86 without ISA changes.

dullard · Mar 9, 2024

FlameTail said:
MLID viewers must be having extreme chronic high blood blood pressure due to all the salt they take...

If only someone made a thread that shows whether or not his claims were accurate. Instead, we have a thread listing that his claims aren't leaks. Oh well.

SiliconFly · Mar 9, 2024

dullard said:
If only someone made a thread that shows whether or not his claims were accurate. Instead, we have a thread listing that his claims aren't leaks. Oh well.

Well, we all like to speculate a bit, don't we?

Hitman928 · Mar 9, 2024

mikk said:
Lenovo Yoga Pro 7 14 with Core Ultra 7 155H tested from Notebookcheck: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenov...Intel-Arc-confronts-Radeon-780M.810926.0.html

This is the fastest Meteor Lake so far on Notebookcheck. Battery life WiFi Websurfing is quite good as well, there is clearly a trend that Meteor Lake has a superior battery life over Phoenix in most of the typical laptop workloads like office, internet, video playback. This is where Raptor Lake suffered.

It's performance is literally within +- 1% of the average of all of the 155Hs they've tested, so it's not the fastest. . .

For battery life they only tested Wi-fi and it's good but nothing special. Not sure how you are getting the conclusion you did.

Philste · Mar 9, 2024

Hitman928 said:
It's performance is literally within +- 1% of the average of all of the 155Hs they've tested, so it's not the fastest. . .

Gaming is 23% above their current MTL iGPU average, beating most of the tested 780Ms. CPU is normal tho.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Senior member

Attachments

Platinum Member

Senior member

Lifer

Diamond Member

Lifer

Diamond Member

Lifer

Golden Member

Golden Member

Lifer

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Platinum Member

Platinum Member

Platinum Member

Platinum Member

Platinum Member

Platinum Member

Diamond Member

Senior member

Elite Member

Golden Member

Diamond Member

Member