Israel: We Are At War

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Stokely

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2017
1,655
2,140
136

I'm not so sure.

The response at Emory in Atlanta in the last couple days seemed way over the top to me for a small protest. Pepper balls, stun guns and rubber bullets were apparently used and from what I read the police were really quick to come in. That really isn't that far from Kent State considering there will be much larger protests (the more people, the more mob rules behavior) and especially where there are counter protests. You can be seriously injured by rubber bullets.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
3,981
2,224
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Sad to see events like this no longer merit headlines or even mention in much of the MSM. Pal lives have been too cheapened to even report on. Had this occurred to Israeli civilians recently, blazing bold headlines would be he norm. Probably followed by the unleashing of a few hundred JDAMs on Pal civilians to make the Israeli public feel that 'proper payback' was and is being delivered.

Israeli airstrikes killed between 20 and 30 people in Rafah Sunday night, including at least five children.

As the threat of a full-scale ground invasion of Rafah still looms, the Israeli Defense Forces have continued to regularly bomb Gaza's southernmost city, where more than 1.5 million Gazans have fled seeking relative safety from Israel's lethal assault on the enclave...

 
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linkgoron

Platinum Member
Mar 9, 2005
2,315
831
136

Projection. You keep ignoring what others say while putting words in their mouths. Prime example:
So you can't point to one, because I've never said any such thing or defended any such thing. I've already said, I responded to a specific post that said that Israel should have just cut a deal with Hamas and not invaded. You can go back to that post and see for yourself.

Who said it's okay? You've been asked this already, but please by all means...link these statements by others. I can see you're (sort of) trying to be subtle about it, but it's still obvious. Especially when you keep accusing others of exactly WTH you're doing/saying.

Bad faith.
Here is the exact statement that I responded to (with that response):
Hamas's Oct 7th attack was not a reasonable act, however nor was it an act that occurred in a vacuum. When one state has been steadily eradicating its neighbour as Israel has been doing for many decades, they would have to be complete lunatics not to expect such a response.
How is this not saying that the attack is not kind of OK? His statement is basically "Yeah, it's not reasonable, but it's not in a vacuum and what would you expect?". How about "I'm not saying that 9/11 is a reasonable act, but it was not done in a vacuum, you'd have to be complete lunatics not to expect such a response?". It's quite clear that the author thinks that the attack was understandable and kind of OK. Also, saying that the Gazans have been "steadily eradicated" even though there are double the amount of Gazans today vs. twenty years ago is an extremely ignorant statement.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
3,981
2,224
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Also, saying that the Gazans have been "steadily eradicated" even though there are double the amount of Gazans today vs. twenty years ago is an extremely ignorant statement.
The 'eradication' is not necessarily in terms of births vs deaths, it can be in its impact and scale of destruction on targets that affect the livability of a large area or region.. Virtually Gazas entire civil infrastructure has been wiped out (eradicated), hospitals, universities, businesses, factories, homes, etc. Its almost unlivable in its current state. With further mass bombing and destruction, what remains of the civilian population may be forced out to neighboring countries. Which seems to me to be Israels goal.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,794
9,785
136
Well, I definitely won't try to have a conversation with someone who thinks that killing 1000 civilians in cold blood is kind of ok. One can't say that Gaza has been steadily eradicated when its population is about double what it was 20 years ago.

Please point out where I said that killing a thousand people is "kind of ok".


How about you read what I responded to. None of what he wrote is close to what you responded with. His idea is that the whole idea of a ground assault is a crime - not that the way that Israel executed it is too aggressive. Those are two very different things.
MrSquished paraphrased a bunch of news sources and did not lend an opinion about a ground assault being a crime. Maybe you would also care to point out where he did?

You responded with a vague "well what should they have done" in response to a non-existent comment regarding the moral question of ground assaults in general.

I don't see how, after more than 1000 civilians murdered in cold blood, Israel had any other option but to go in and destroy Hamas troops.

Ignore Israel vs Palestine for a moment and consider this: Nations A and B are at war. Nation A's tactic is guerilla war style in that they strike from the shadows and disappear back into Nation A's populace. Nation B has the choice of staging an assault into civilian zones of Nation A, however bear in mind two factors:

1) Military forces are trained to carry out specific objectives, to kill whomever they're told without question. Provided that they do as they're told, the vast majority of those doing the killing will never face official, direct repercussions. They have to employ split-second decision making: Friend or foe. Military discipline is far easier to maintain provided that they face a military force like their own without any other factors, as black-and-white a situation as possible.

2) The whole point of nation A's tactic is that their forces are not easy to tell apart from civilians. Furthermore, some civilians will be actively helping the forces, some will be sympathetic at the very least, some may coincidentally be in the vicinity of nation B's forces, some may be coerced/forced into helping in some way. A civilian at any point could become a threat because they no doubt perceive Nation B's forces as a threat.

Nation B's military force is not going to be able to tell the difference in a split-second decision, so chances are what are they going to do: Fire. A child holding a gun or maybe-a-gun could kill them just like an adult could.

If Nation B is truly interested in minimising the loss of civilian life, their soldiers are going to be relying on split-second judgements far more often than orders. A soldier is going to want to stay alive. Ordering them into such a conflict is going to cause a lot of problems, such as widespread civilian loss of life, soldiers with more psychopathic mentalities are going to have an absolute field day due to the lack of oversight and accountability, soldiers with some kind of moral code are far more likely to end up with PTSD because they've either killed someone who didn't deserve it, or they feared they might have done, or they end up dead because they hesitated when they should have fired.

If Nation B is truly interested in a morally righteous outcome and for some kind of lasting peace to result, then they must be aware of the fact that every civilian their forces kill is damaging their cause two-fold, 1) because killing civilians is wrong and 2) every civilian killed equals a very high chance of rallying more people to Nation A's cause.

Israel had a choice. Had they chosen the highly problematic scenario I've just described, it would have turned out badly. Instead they chose the even worse option: Genocide.

You should read up about the Ireland - UK conflict if you think Israel had no choice. Peace was not achieved between Ireland and the UK through a ground assault, because strangely enough, murdering tonnes of civilians isn't a very peaceful act.
 
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Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
8,992
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How is this not saying that the attack is not kind of OK? His statement is basically "Yeah, it's not reasonable, but it's not in a vacuum and what would you expect?". How about "I'm not saying that 9/11 is a reasonable act, but it was not done in a vacuum, you'd have to be complete lunatics not to expect such a response?". It's quite clear that the author thinks that the attack was understandable and kind of OK.

No, it's only "clear" to you because it's what you want to process it as. It isn't what they said. That's exactly what I was talking about, but go ahead and keep doubling down. You've already repeated it several times now.

'The attack by Hamas was wrong. The response by Israel is just as wrong. They are genociding civilians.' ~everyone else
'Why do you agree with what Hamas did? Why do you think killing 1000 Israelis is okay??' ~you, for some reason
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,794
9,785
136
How is this not saying that the attack is not kind of OK? His statement is basically "Yeah, it's not reasonable, but it's not in a vacuum and what would you expect?". How about "I'm not saying that 9/11 is a reasonable act, but it was not done in a vacuum, you'd have to be complete lunatics not to expect such a response?". It's quite clear that the author thinks that the attack was understandable and kind of OK. Also, saying that the Gazans have been "steadily eradicated" even though there are double the amount of Gazans today vs. twenty years ago is an extremely ignorant statement.

I made no argument regarding the morality of the Oct 7th attack.

If person A kicks person B's dog and person B breaks person A's nose in response, I would say, "well what did person A expect?"

In saying those words, I have not declared my support for person B's reaction. I am simply stating that unless person A is a complete fucking idiot, they had to expect something to happen in response to their act of cruelty.

As I've already said more than once in this thread, I don't think the Oct 7th attack served any useful purpose whatsoever. Killing civilians is wrong, it didn't help Hamas win any allies, I highly doubt that any Palestinians rallied to Hamas's cause as a result of the attack, and it pissed Israel off: All highly predictable outcomes of such an attack. If anything it hastened the eradication of Palestine. Therefore I don't support it as such. But my original point remains, Israel had to expect something to happen as a result of their cruelty to Palestine over many decades.
 
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Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,644
5,378
136
I'm not so sure.

The response at Emory in Atlanta in the last couple days seemed way over the top to me for a small protest. Pepper balls, stun guns and rubber bullets were apparently used and from what I read the police were really quick to come in. That really isn't that far from Kent State considering there will be much larger protests (the more people, the more mob rules behavior) and especially where there are counter protests. You can be seriously injured by rubber bullets.
that is an interesting point.

the police in this country are just random.

one town will be good, the next town complete thugs, the county they are in who knows.



but does that apply to the national guard? Well in Georgia calling the National Guard up for every civil disturbance is a bit of a tradition. Need to keep the colored folks down and all that. But from what I can see, its been a long time since they have just shot anyone.

The GA NG seem to be deploy a 1000+ guys with shields and batons types. Not nice, but not really shooty.
 
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linkgoron

Platinum Member
Mar 9, 2005
2,315
831
136
The 'eradication' is not necessarily in terms of births vs deaths, it can be in its impact and scale of destruction on targets that affect the livability of a large area or region.. Virtually Gazas entire civil infrastructure has been wiped out (eradicated), hospitals, universities, businesses, factories, homes, etc. Its almost unlivable in its current state. With further mass bombing and destruction, what remains of the civilian population may be forced out to neighboring countries. Which seems to me to be Israels goal.
Except that he was referring to the state before the war, not after.

MrSquished paraphrased a bunch of news sources and did not lend an opinion about a ground assault being a crime. Maybe you would also care to point out where he did?
Here is his exact wording, you read it however you want, and that he "did not lend his opinion":
From the newspapers - Hamas had basically agreed to release 50 hostages if Israel paused the bombardment of Gaza, but Israel launched its ground war a couple days later and killed those talks. Because anybody who is not ignorant, or a Zionist pig, knows that Israel could care less about hostages or anything else but eradicating the Palestinians and their land because they have become a monstrous apartheid state nation just aching to kill and displace as many Palestinians as possible.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
3,981
2,224
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As I've already said more than once in this thread, I don't think the Oct 7th attack served any useful purpose whatsoever. Killing civilians is wrong, it didn't help Hamas win any allies, I highly doubt that any Palestinians rallied to Hamas's cause as a result of the attack, and it pissed Israel off: All highly predictable outcomes of such an attack. If anything it hastened the eradication of Palestine. Therefore I don't support it as such. But my original point remains, Israel had to expect something to happen as a result of their cruelty to Palestine over many decades.
What was Israels reason to invade Lebanon in 1982? There was no Oct 7 type attack or any terrorist incidents for months prior but they were alarmed that Arafat was about to accept a peace plan put together by Arab and US officials that would involve the recognition of Israel and provide the grounds for a peace deal for a 2 state solution.

How did Israel respond to that? They tried to provoke a terrorist response by attacking a few PLO targets in Lebanon but were frustrated by the lack of their response. A few weeks later a terrorist attack did occur, but where? In London! The Israeli ambassador was killed in an attack by a Pal militant, but before Scotland Yard could do an investigation to determine the attackers background and affiliation, Israel invaded Lebanon! That was what they were looking for, a pretext to invade Lebanon and drive the PLO out of Lebanon and of course sabotage any peace overtures by Arafat. They simply did not want to return any Occupied Territories in any potential peace deal with the Pals.

In the end, they did drive the PLO out of Lebanon (to Tunisia) at the cost of upwards of 15,000 civilian dead, mostly Lebanese by the indiscriminate carpet bombing of Beirut and elsewhere. And as I have earlier mentioned, Bin Laden used this as a rationale for the Sept 11 attacks.

Israel prefers to retain the Occupied Territories for eternity regardless of how many dead or injured occur on both sides.

 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,794
9,785
136
Here is his exact wording, you read it however you want, and that he "did not lend his opinion":
I think you need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills. There is nothing there which is an opinion about a/any ground war being a crime.

I'll walk you through it:

"Hamas had basically agreed to release 50 hostages if Israel paused the bombardment of Gaza"

This is an assertion.

", but Israel launched its ground war a couple days later and killed those talks."

This is another assertion. This is also the only time that a ground war is mentioned in that quote.

"Because anybody who is not ignorant, or a Zionist pig, knows that Israel could care less about hostages or anything else but eradicating the Palestinians and their land because they have become a monstrous apartheid state nation just aching to kill and displace as many Palestinians as possible."

This is a whole series of opinions wrapped in an albeit shaky assertion, but again, ground wars are not mentioned, not even an opinion on the tactics of *that* ground war, let alone ground wars in general.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,472
19,893
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Except that he was referring to the state before the war, not after.


Here is his exact wording, you read it however you want, and that he "did not lend his opinion":
I mean everything I said is true. What exactly did I say that's incorrect?

Have you noticed what's been going on in Israel and Palestine for the last few decades? You know Israel the apartheid state oppressor?
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
3,981
2,224
136
Had a feeling cunts like this would attempt shit like this.

Pro-Israel Agitator Shouts ‘Kill the Jews,’ Gets Everyone Else Arrested

 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
3,981
2,224
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Israel ‘undoubtedly’ committing genocide says Holocaust scholar Amos Goldberg

A professor of Holocaust history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, Amos Goldberg, has said that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.

In an opinion piece published by The Palestine Project, he argued that the scale of killing and destruction inflicted by Israel on Gaza, constitutes a “deliberate crushing of Palestinian existence in Gaza”.

“It’s so difficult and painful to admit it, but despite all that… we can no longer avoid this conclusion. Jewish history will be henceforth stained,” Goldberg said...

 
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Drach

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2022
1,061
1,687
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It's unbelievable that Jewish history gets dictated by Israel.

Literally every Jew that I know in California hates Netenyahoo.
 
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amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
3,981
2,224
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Is there a source for the claim in that highly manufactured image?
I guess she is basing it off of UN reports. But as to how many were tied among the bodies is unknown.


The report is a week old and the body count has risen I believe.
 
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