Discussion AMD raytracing - will it ever improve or even beat RTX?

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Jul 27, 2020
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AMD Announces Radeon Raytracing Analyzer - Phoronix

The optimist in me says that AMD has released this to increase the value of their 6000 series cards so developers can make them perform better in raytracing scenes by utilizing hybrid raytracing instead of full-on raytracing.

My inner pessimist, however, tells me that AMD's 7000 series won't be able to improve raytracing power that much and since hybrid raytracing is the thing consoles are using anyway, AMD isn't too worried and just expects that developers porting console games with hybrid raytracing over to the PC will appreciate that they don't have to do too much work for supporting Radeons.
 

soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
2,721
1,921
136
You mean Nvidia bought PhysX right? Havok was bought by Intel then sold to Microsoft and is virtually unheard of since, a bit like PhysX & Bullet.
True they are alike, but Havok was almost certainly the trail blazer in the game engine physics arena - which makes it all the sadder that MS just buried it.

I can only assume that they hoped to make a DirectPhysics library for another anchor tethering gamers to Windows, but the popularity of Unreal Engine makes that problematic given that it provides its own physics engine now (Chaos).

I salute Epic's push to negate HW or SW vendor specific gimmicks in Unreal Engine by developing these internal tools - I always hoped that they would adapt some open alternative to PhysX but they went one better and made their own.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
6,933
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I just hope the physics engines are robust enough to handle more than window dressing physics and really leverages multi-threaded processors to bring us back to fully destructible environments.

Between Tesselation, Ray tracing, and physics we should really have top tier destructible environments at our fingertips now.
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,436
1,655
136
None of these companies are a charity, but Nvidia has been way more anti-competitive and anti-consumer historically. It might have been because of their market position, but it's still true.
Yeah I think that the part people have a hard time wrapping their heads around. AMD has done a lot of Anti-consumer, for the stock holders moves in their lives. They become more consumer friendly when they are desperate for business. Even at their worse they are only borderline terrible (locked multipliers, holding back supply of consumer parts for server/workstation parts, up pricing their parts due to the market. Rarely do they do the extremes of Intel and Nvidia in those steps (The X2 FX chips only got up to the prices they did after Intel paved the way, 6900xt/6950xt only followed Nvidia and was no where near severe). The largest reason for this is they are much more production limited than either of them, while competing in both markets. AMD has to maximize profits, perfect that demand and supply high point. All should but the smaller you are the more important this is, you can't leave millions on the table just to make people happy (though the fact you can get any 5k CPU considering the server market, says they are to some degree). But no one is really blaming Intel and Nvidia for that even though they tend to be a lot more lethal about their pricing.

Its the monopolistic abuses, the illegal anti-competitive stuff that they do. Some small like Hairworks and Intels compilers specifically making games and programs run worse on AMD hardware. Or Intel paying manufacturers for lowering their ratio or not offering AMD products. Threatening to limit hardware to companies that offer equipment for competitors. Many people here might not even have been alive when AMD announced the OG Slot A Athlon. Shortly before it was do to come out Intel announced they might have a shortage on 440BX chipsets, and basically told Motherboard manufacturers that if offered any AMD based boards they might see their access to 440BX chips reduced. So lots of board guys sold boards unlabeled in plain white boxes, including giants like Asus with their K7M. Some of these there is enough legal room that the true illegalness depends on who is in charge when investigated. But ridiculously unethical.

There is always the feeling that power corrupts and AMD may become just as bad if placed in a similar position. But it seems really terrible go with the well AMD would do X, having never done X, when you have absolute proof that Intel whenever they have the chance to do X they always will. Same to a lesser sense Nvidia. You might think AMD would create as many featuresets limited solely to AMD. But whenever there is an option for AMD to do something they could limit to their hardware, they don't Mantle which was the kick needed to move DX and Vulcan to where it is was open. Freesync is open even though they could have kept it closed but not require an expensive controller on the monitor. They have lived in an open life, all their life, no reason to believe they would ever release a tech locked in that requires not only their expensive cards, but an implementation in another non-AMD hardware that would make that device $100 more expensive. Not just the Sync chip, but back in the day, when they offered chipsets, SLI only worked on their boards, and after they stopped, they required purchasing their PLX chip and only offered it to companies building Intel based boards. This went on for like a decade.

No company is your friend. But some companies are your enemies. Intel is certainly one of those and Nvidia isn't far behind.
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
2,559
136
You mean Nvidia bought PhysX right? Havok was bought by Intel then sold to Microsoft and is virtually unheard of since, a bit like PhysX & Bullet.

Havok is used in quite a lot of games. Its just not plastered all over the place.

Just to name a few: No Man's Sky, Zelda BotW, World of Tanks, The Horizon games, Monster Hunter World. Plenty of recent, AAA games that use it.
 

eek2121

Platinum Member
Aug 2, 2005
2,934
4,032
136
I was not expecting this thread to go this direction, but I like it. Some of you cats can really hold a grudge. You have been grinding those axes so long they are just the haft now.

While we are all kicking the printer in the field, I will add that Sound Blaster was the scourge of PC system stability BITD. There were so many troubleshooting threads that came down to - So, you bought a Sound Blaster...

I bought a sound card a couple years ago. No joke. A Creative Labs Sound Blaster AE-5 Plus. I originally purchased it for the built-in headphone amp. Ended up later getting an external amp but kept the sound card thanks to the silent audio floor it gives me. Onboard audio was always prone to interference in all my builds.

The drivers are garbage, but the hardware itself is great.

If you get one, make sure to disable windows update for drivers.
 
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soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
2,721
1,921
136
6900xt/6950xt only followed Nvidia and was no where near severe
AMD has far more reason financially to push profit.

While nVidia has been far (stratospherically) above the waterline financially for years, AMD has been struggling with years old debt until fairly recently.

They need to push for profit when and where they can get it, so it's completely understandable that they would exploit those market conditions - it's still a business at the end of the day.

Keeping consumers happy is a nice bonus that has the knock on effect of also building brand loyalty and recognition.
 

Dribble

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2005
2,076
611
136
Yeah I think that the part people have a hard time wrapping their heads around. AMD has done a lot of Anti-consumer, for the stock holders moves in their lives. They become more consumer friendly when they are desperate for business. Even at their worse they are only borderline terrible (locked multipliers, holding back supply of consumer parts for server/workstation parts, up pricing their parts due to the market. Rarely do they do the extremes of Intel and Nvidia in those steps (The X2 FX chips only got up to the prices they did after Intel paved the way, 6900xt/6950xt only followed Nvidia and was no where near severe). The largest reason for this is they are much more production limited than either of them, while competing in both markets. AMD has to maximize profits, perfect that demand and supply high point. All should but the smaller you are the more important this is, you can't leave millions on the table just to make people happy (though the fact you can get any 5k CPU considering the server market, says they are to some degree). But no one is really blaming Intel and Nvidia for that even though they tend to be a lot more lethal about their pricing.

Its the monopolistic abuses, the illegal anti-competitive stuff that they do. Some small like Hairworks and Intels compilers specifically making games and programs run worse on AMD hardware. Or Intel paying manufacturers for lowering their ratio or not offering AMD products. Threatening to limit hardware to companies that offer equipment for competitors. Many people here might not even have been alive when AMD announced the OG Slot A Athlon. Shortly before it was do to come out Intel announced they might have a shortage on 440BX chipsets, and basically told Motherboard manufacturers that if offered any AMD based boards they might see their access to 440BX chips reduced. So lots of board guys sold boards unlabeled in plain white boxes, including giants like Asus with their K7M. Some of these there is enough legal room that the true illegalness depends on who is in charge when investigated. But ridiculously unethical.

There is always the feeling that power corrupts and AMD may become just as bad if placed in a similar position. But it seems really terrible go with the well AMD would do X, having never done X, when you have absolute proof that Intel whenever they have the chance to do X they always will. Same to a lesser sense Nvidia. You might think AMD would create as many featuresets limited solely to AMD. But whenever there is an option for AMD to do something they could limit to their hardware, they don't Mantle which was the kick needed to move DX and Vulcan to where it is was open. Freesync is open even though they could have kept it closed but not require an expensive controller on the monitor. They have lived in an open life, all their life, no reason to believe they would ever release a tech locked in that requires not only their expensive cards, but an implementation in another non-AMD hardware that would make that device $100 more expensive. Not just the Sync chip, but back in the day, when they offered chipsets, SLI only worked on their boards, and after they stopped, they required purchasing their PLX chip and only offered it to companies building Intel based boards. This went on for like a decade.

No company is your friend. But some companies are your enemies. Intel is certainly one of those and Nvidia isn't far behind.
Sorry, but they are all as bad as each other and if you somehow believe that AMD is better you've been drinking too much red coolaid. They are all in this business to make money not to be nice to you. Most of the AMD love comes primarily from the fact that we love to support the underdog not because the company is somehow magically filled with people with better morals.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,280
4,801
136
Sorry, but they are all as bad as each other and if you somehow believe that AMD is better you've been drinking too much red coolaid. They are all in this business to make money not to be nice to you. Most of the AMD love comes primarily from the fact that we love to support the underdog not because the company is somehow magically filled with people with better morals.
I agree, personally I'm excited by new products that are significantly better than the products they replace. Until Alder lake, it had been a long time since Intel did that, maybe not since the X99 platform.
 

Dribble

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2005
2,076
611
136
AMD prefers open standards. That makes them better than Nvidia.
Not because they are better but because they have no choice given their position. If they were in a dominant position owning most of the gpu market and making most of the innovations they would be closed too because that makes more money, and in the end that is what AMD exists to do. Never forget AMD is owned by their share holders, and those share holder don't give two hoots what standards AMD uses, they just want the best return on their investment.

e.g. AMD have the best APU's - I don't see them making their designs open so Nvidia can make APU's with AMD cpu's and Nvidia graphics, or Intel can make APU's using Intel cpu's and AMD gpu's. That stays nice and closed because AMD have market leadership there and don't want to share it.
 
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Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
2,559
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Not because they are better but because they have no choice given their position. If they were in a dominant position owning most of the gpu market and making most of the innovations they would be closed too because that makes more money, and in the end that is what AMD exists to do. Never forget AMD is owned by their share holders, and those share holder don't give two hoots what standards AMD uses, they just want the best return on their investment.

e.g. AMD have the best APU's - I don't see them making their designs open so Nvidia can make APU's with AMD cpu's and Nvidia graphics, or Intel can make APU's using Intel cpu's and AMD gpu's. That stays nice and closed because AMD have market leadership there and don't want to share it.

Thats a big assumption. Some of the biggest companies on earth still push for open standards. There is money in splitting R&D costs among other entities. AdaptiveSync for instance. AMD worked with many other companies to make it an open standard, so the development cost was split. And because they made it an open standard, its now supported everywhere.

Closed systems and vendor lock-in can work in some scenarios. However, it requires that the owner of those systems be responsible for 100% of all development. So there is a lot more overhead involved with them.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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e.g. AMD have the best APU's - I don't see them making their designs open so Nvidia can make APU's with AMD cpu's and Nvidia graphics, or Intel can make APU's using Intel cpu's and AMD gpu's. That stays nice and closed because AMD have market leadership there and don't want to share it.
I think the issue there is more about splitting the profits. If Intel/Nvidia wanted to put their iGPU in an AMD APU, they would want a slice of the pie contrary to what AMD would think makes good business sense for them. There would just be too many disputes.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
6,933
7,346
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Not because they are better but because they have no choice given their position. If they were in a dominant position owning most of the gpu market and making most of the innovations they would be closed too because that makes more money, and in the end that is what AMD exists to do. Never forget AMD is owned by their share holders, and those share holder don't give two hoots what standards AMD uses, they just want the best return on their investment.

e.g. AMD have the best APU's - I don't see them making their designs open so Nvidia can make APU's with AMD cpu's and Nvidia graphics, or Intel can make APU's using Intel cpu's and AMD gpu's. That stays nice and closed because AMD have market leadership there and don't want to share it.

-I think that's what everyone is arguing. AMD isn't a "moral" company, but they simply have not had a chance to be in a position where they are dominant enough for long enough for their true colors to... Ooze through.

That said, they have surprised me a few times, like reversing their Zen3 working on older AM4 boards decision.
 

KompuKare

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,039
1,022
136
No company is your friend. But some companies are your enemies. Intel is certainly one of those and Nvidia isn't far behind.
And that is the very important point. I'd go farther and say:
No company is your friend. But some companies have consistently proven that they are your enemies.

But it seems really terrible go with the well AMD would do X, having never done X, when you have absolute proof that Intel whenever they have the chance to do X they always will. Same to a lesser sense Nvidia.
Not to drag this down to P&N, but the old adage "the are all as bad as each other, so I might as well vote for the clown who amuses me the most" has lead to kinds of excess these past few years.

"They" might potentially all be bad, but I'd always penalise those who have already demonstrated how bad they are rather than worrying about whether the other party might do the same given half a chance.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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"They" might potentially all be bad, but I'd always penalise those who have already demonstrated how bad they are rather than worrying about whether the other party might do the same given half a chance.
Totally agree. Actions speak louder than words. AMD has far fewer anti-consumer actions under its belt.
 

linkgoron

Platinum Member
Mar 9, 2005
2,315
831
136
e.g. AMD have the best APU's - I don't see them making their designs open so Nvidia can make APU's with AMD cpu's and Nvidia graphics, or Intel can make APU's using Intel cpu's and AMD gpu's. That stays nice and closed because AMD have market leadership there and don't want to share it.
I'm not sure I'm even following what AMD would share. They would allow other people to manufacture their GPUs? Why should they license their hardware? How is that relevant to anything? You can use an Intel CPU with an AMD GPU if you'd like.

Not because they are better but because they have no choice given their position. If they were in a dominant position owning most of the gpu market and making most of the innovations they would be closed too because that makes more money, and in the end that is what AMD exists to do. Never forget AMD is owned by their share holders, and those share holder don't give two hoots what standards AMD uses, they just want the best return on their investment.
I think that motives shouldn't matter. Maybe AMD would behave like Nvidia if things were reversed, but in our timeline they're usually doing things that are open (e.g. freesync/adaptive-sync, FSR etc.), while nvidia never supports open standards unless forced and in general act in anti-competitive ways. That's what's important.
 
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DeathReborn

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 2005
2,750
746
136
That and not changing sockets as often, which makes them seem more moral than Intel.

That can also be attributed to a lack of funding, a fair chunk of the chipset is ASMedia I believe which has helped keep development costs down. Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that AM4 is so long lasting but I am not oblivious as to why, and it's not a moral decision in my view.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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I'm just in awe of Lisa Su. Her judgement of people is excellent. She did the right thing pushing Raja out. He was toxic to AMD and now he's infecting Intel with his less than stellar execution. The fact that AMD's GPU effort thrived after he left and Intel not able to deliver even a fully working value GPU SKU after 5 years with Raja at the helm, says volumes about Raja's leadership ability, or rather, lack of it. There's still hope for him if he can learn from his mistakes.
 

Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,645
5,379
136
I'm just in awe of Lisa Su. Her judgement of people is excellent. She did the right thing pushing Raja out. He was toxic to AMD and now he's infecting Intel with his less than stellar execution. The fact that AMD's GPU effort thrived after he left and Intel not able to deliver even a fully working value GPU SKU after 5 years with Raja at the helm, says volumes about Raja's leadership ability, or rather, lack of it. There's still hope for him if he can learn from his mistakes.
I am a lot more positive about Raja.

The rx6000 series was his project after all.

I think the situation at Intel was hopeless before Raja showed up. If anything, I am very impressed he managed to turn out any product at all over at Intel.

Look at Intel's failure on the CPU side. The problems with Intel do not start or end with Raja.
 

NomanA

Member
May 15, 2014
128
31
101
Haven't seen that title myself. I can only use examples i know. However this only further process the point that it can make a real visual impact.

This is regarding Guardians of the Galaxy, and yes it looks and performs wonderfully well with raytracing on even on the 6700XT I am running it at. I use 4K with FSR, so the internal resolution is around 2560x1440.

The game itself is also pretty good. Highly recommended! It's available on PC Gamepass as well.
 
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