Question about EPA Gas-mileage specs for hybrid vehicles

[BonzaiDuck]

As the 76-year-old thumping my chest about my old 95 Trooper, I am slowly moving toward a decision point -- purchase of a new car.

Of course, my situation doesn't really recommend it as a wise spending decision. The Trooper and my Nissan 95 hardbody truck are running tip-top, and I only drive about 5,000 miles per year with both combined. Why invest $30,000 to $40,000 in a new vehicle for that sort of limited driving, even if I'll save $135/month in gasoline expense?

I'm flush, as they say, doubling my savings after settling my departed Moms' estate distributing equally with my brother. Further, I've listed my Northern Virginia rental property for sale after deciding that I've been spoiled by having a long-term tenant of 11 years, but no longer eager to suffer the uncertainties of finding a tenant every year or two. So I'm cashing out. Some people would abjure renting a property so far from home, but I grew comfortable with it, picking reliable and responsive rental-management companies. Yet, I see it now -- it's time to sell.

By itself, if I can get 5% return on the proceeds after long-term cap-gains plus my current savings, it will more than make up for the rental income. I might easily pay outright for a $30,000 vehicle in two or three years from that income. But my dentist tells me that I may have about 14 years left before I punch my ticket to the next life. He thinks I should just spend all my money, instead of making my money work for more money.

OK, however -- to the point. I've been looking at the 2024 Toyota Prius, the 2024 Toyota RAV4 and the 2024 Honda CR-V -- in their hybrid incarnations.

Can anyone tell me why, for these hybrids other than the Prius, the highway gas-mileage spec is lower than the city-driving spec? With the Prius, the two numbers are about equal, or vary much less. On the surface, it doesn't seem to make sense.

 

[Tech Junky]

Bigger vehicles and less braking to regenerate charge.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Bigger vehicles and less braking to regenerate charge.

I don't quite understand what you mean.

 

[Tech Junky]

EVs regenerate charge when braking. Thus when on the hwy you brake less but larger vehicle uses more charge.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

EVs regenerate charge when braking. Thus when on the hwy you brake less but larger vehicle uses more charge.

OK -- I think I understand. I'll keep trying to stretch my brain around that one.

 

[Ken g6]

OK, suppose you're driving the same distance at 30MPH vs. 60MPH, with no stop signs or traffic lights. It'll take you twice as long at 30MPH, but you'll use less fuel because there's less air resistance. 60MPH without stops is roughly how highway MPG is calculated.

Now travel the same distance, with a 30MPH speed limit, but add in stop signs or traffic lights. In your old Trooper you'd stop using brakes, and waste energy each time as heat. In a hybrid you'd stop using the motor as a generator, storing 80-90% of the energy in the battery to help you accelerate again. 30MPH with stops is roughly how city MPG is calculated.

A hybrid is nearly as efficient traveling with stops as without, which means it usually has a better city MPG than highway due to the lower air resistance at slow speeds. As for the Prius in particular, it's more streamlined than most cars and has low rolling resistance tires which help it get a good highway rating.

What state are you in if not Virginia? Some states have incentives for buying plug-in hybrids or EVs.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

OK, suppose you're driving the same distance at 30MPH vs. 60MPH, with no stop signs or traffic lights. It'll take you twice as long at 30MPH, but you'll use less fuel because there's less air resistance. 60MPH without stops is roughly how highway MPG is calculated.

Now travel the same distance, with a 30MPH speed limit, but add in stop signs or traffic lights. In your old Trooper you'd stop using brakes, and waste energy each time as heat. In a hybrid you'd stop using the motor as a generator, storing 80-90% of the energy in the battery to help you accelerate again. 30MPH with stops is roughly how city MPG is calculated.

A hybrid is nearly as efficient traveling with stops as without, which means it usually has a better city MPG than highway due to the lower air resistance at slow speeds. As for the Prius in particular, it's more streamlined than most cars and has low rolling resistance tires which help it get a good highway rating.

What state are you in if not Virginia? Some states have incentives for buying plug-in hybrids or EVs.

California. I would think there MUST be incentives. Other factors incline me to be a bit cool about it. I'm constantly re-evaluating my personal economic situation. But I should be in good shape, particularly after I cash out that property, and even if I have to drop my asking price.

It's nice to understand this matter of hybrids and mileage specs, and so I thank you all.

 

[BoomerD]

Hybrids get better city mileage because at the lower speeds, they use the electric motor more than they do at highway speeds...plus the regenerative braking thing.

Why Do Hybrid Cars Get Better Gas Mileage for City Driving?

Have you ever noticed that the fuel economy for hybrids is often higher for city driving? We cover the reasons for this phenomenon.

www.motorbiscuit.com

We had a 2013 Ford C-Max for a couple of years. I can confirm there's a big difference in mileage city/highway. Over the 2+ years we owned it, we averaged 42 mpg.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I'm determined to keep the 95 Trooper and Nissan truck in tip-top shape and run them. If I get a new vehicle, it might be in two years or so. I can't say for sure.

I'll have a better idea once i sell my Virginia property. My morale slipped today because I received a low-ball offer from what I call a "real-estate vulture" -- people trading in rental and investment properties who don't plan to live in them. I'm blowing it off and sticking to my asking price.

The things I must consider are my sense of personal decline in two years, and whether I can reinvest the assets to replace or improve on the rental income I had.

Then -- I may consider the hybrid Prius, RAV4 or CR-V. At all costs, I need to avoid "financial stress" which often confounds younger people. I learned my lesson a long time ago. And -- I'm freaking retired on a fixed income.

 

[Dr. Detroit]

The gas savings from a Hybrid is pointless for you as you drive so few miles a year. Why spend an extra $5K+ when that money can be spent on gasoline and stay invested in the market or buy you a vacation or 3?

Breakeven/Payback period will be 20yrs I'm guessing

Hybrid vs Gas Vehicle Savings Calculator - WalletBurst

Compare fuel costs between a hybrid and gas vehicle and see how soon a hybrid vehicle can pay for itself.

walletburst.com

 

[BonzaiDuck]

The gas savings from a Hybrid is pointless for you as you drive so few miles a year. Why spend an extra $5K+ when that money can be spent on gasoline and stay invested in the market or buy you a vacation or 3?

Breakeven/Payback period will be 20yrs I'm guessing

View attachment 97860

Hybrid vs Gas Vehicle Savings Calculator - WalletBurst

Compare fuel costs between a hybrid and gas vehicle and see how soon a hybrid vehicle can pay for itself.

walletburst.com

Actually, thank you Dr. Detroit for your summary analysis. I had already worked this out for myself several times. This is the reason I've held onto two 1995 vehicles for 21 years.

I just went to the Shell station today . . . in So. California . . . . the Premium was $6.19/gal. It wasn't but a few weeks ago I was paying just over $5. But I won't fret about it, as you understand and as I say, I'm driving less than 5,500 miles/annum -- maybe less. The Trooper gets 13 town and 17 highway.

Here's something else, too. Today I went down to my repair shop to speak with the owner there -- we have a "rapport". I just spent $650 to replace the gas-tank sensor feeding the idiot light and needle gauge, and the fuel pump as well. Worth every penny, given the improvements. Maybe in this thread or another one I mentioned a strange behavior of easy starting cold and difficult starting when the engine has been sitting hot for 10 minutes or more. And a fellow Anandtech member likely nailed the problem as a defective fuel pressure regulator or "fuel injection pressure valve" -- a $50 item that requires removal of the intake manifold to make the replacement. The labor is likely something between $500 and $1,000.

Well, sir -- I'm determined to have it done if testing proves my suspicion, even though it doesn't seem like a major problem at the moment. I could wait until next year, since the car has a budget of $1,000 annually for repair and maintenance. And, while we're at it, removal of the intake manifold will also make it easy to remove the EGR valve and either clean it or replace it.

I feel good about this. So let us say that I'm "just investigating" the possibility of a new-car or pre-owned car purchase.

And so I totally agree: it doesn't make sense with my personal driver profile.

Today's story of momentary disaster -- when I went to the shell station, I left my keys in the ignition. I keep a spare set of keys in my fanny pack, but I was lazy today and I had just dumped the fanny-pack in the passenger seat. All the other doors of the car were locked, and I accidentally locked the driver-side door. thus -- locking the keys inside the car at the gas pump. And my cell-phone was in the car as well.

I got someone to call AAA for me, and the AAA guy arrived in less than 20 minutes. I actually drove away feeling good about all of this!

 

[BonzaiDuck]

The gas savings from a Hybrid is pointless for you as you drive so few miles a year. Why spend an extra $5K+ when that money can be spent on gasoline and stay invested in the market or buy you a vacation or 3?

Breakeven/Payback period will be 20yrs I'm guessing

View attachment 97860

Hybrid vs Gas Vehicle Savings Calculator - WalletBurst

Compare fuel costs between a hybrid and gas vehicle and see how soon a hybrid vehicle can pay for itself.

walletburst.com

I've done this analysis myself, and I agree with what you show.

I just acquired a set of good hearing aids. I suddenly hear noises my Trooper makes that I hadn't noticed before. I may have a slow oil leak that Blue Devil isn't fixing, and I was planning to spend $1,000 in the next year to replace the fuel pressure regulator or valve (a $50 part, but high labor expense). Sooner or later, if I need serious engine or transmission work, it may be the time to replace the vehicle, just from a sense of capital budgeting and limitation on sunk-cost.

It's probably good for at least another couple years or 10,000 miles.

UPDATE: First -- the noises: If the oil level drops even a half-quart below full, the engine is noisier. I am slightly mystified that my oil level -- slightly overfilled maybe 8 oz to 16 oz above the high full mark -- dropped to a level requiring 24 oz. Where did it go? ! Couldn't be out the exhaust, because my last smog test was absolutely stellar. Minor leaks showing on the drop pan would not of themselves account for it.

But it has been 1,500 miles since the last oil change. This is something you have to keep an eye on with old cars.

I'm going to talk to Michael, who owns my solid gold repair shop, and we're going to develop a plan. First -- the fuel injection pressure valve sometime before end of year. Then the leaks. I don't think my engine is getting ready to fall apart, though . . .

ANOTHER UPDATE: I think it's possible that the "oil loss" is partly or even mostly due to evaporation of the volatile compounds in a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil that had been mixed with the last oil change. And I think it's time I stopped using it. It has really cleaned out my engine, so mission-accomplished with that . . .