Question about EPA Gas-mileage specs for hybrid vehicles

[BonzaiDuck]

As the 76-year-old thumping my chest about my old 95 Trooper, I am slowly moving toward a decision point -- purchase of a new car.

Of course, my situation doesn't really recommend it as a wise spending decision. The Trooper and my Nissan 95 hardbody truck are running tip-top, and I only drive about 5,000 miles per year with both combined. Why invest $30,000 to $40,000 in a new vehicle for that sort of limited driving, even if I'll save $135/month in gasoline expense?

I'm flush, as they say, doubling my savings after settling my departed Moms' estate distributing equally with my brother. Further, I've listed my Northern Virginia rental property for sale after deciding that I've been spoiled by having a long-term tenant of 11 years, but no longer eager to suffer the uncertainties of finding a tenant every year or two. So I'm cashing out. Some people would abjure renting a property so far from home, but I grew comfortable with it, picking reliable and responsive rental-management companies. Yet, I see it now -- it's time to sell.

By itself, if I can get 5% return on the proceeds after long-term cap-gains plus my current savings, it will more than make up for the rental income. I might easily pay outright for a $30,000 vehicle in two or three years from that income. But my dentist tells me that I may have about 14 years left before I punch my ticket to the next life. He thinks I should just spend all my money, instead of making my money work for more money.

OK, however -- to the point. I've been looking at the 2024 Toyota Prius, the 2024 Toyota RAV4 and the 2024 Honda CR-V -- in their hybrid incarnations.

Can anyone tell me why, for these hybrids other than the Prius, the highway gas-mileage spec is lower than the city-driving spec? With the Prius, the two numbers are about equal, or vary much less. On the surface, it doesn't seem to make sense.

 

[Tech Junky]

Bigger vehicles and less braking to regenerate charge.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Bigger vehicles and less braking to regenerate charge.

I don't quite understand what you mean.

 

[Tech Junky]

EVs regenerate charge when braking. Thus when on the hwy you brake less but larger vehicle uses more charge.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

EVs regenerate charge when braking. Thus when on the hwy you brake less but larger vehicle uses more charge.

OK -- I think I understand. I'll keep trying to stretch my brain around that one.

 

[Ken g6]

OK, suppose you're driving the same distance at 30MPH vs. 60MPH, with no stop signs or traffic lights. It'll take you twice as long at 30MPH, but you'll use less fuel because there's less air resistance. 60MPH without stops is roughly how highway MPG is calculated.

Now travel the same distance, with a 30MPH speed limit, but add in stop signs or traffic lights. In your old Trooper you'd stop using brakes, and waste energy each time as heat. In a hybrid you'd stop using the motor as a generator, storing 80-90% of the energy in the battery to help you accelerate again. 30MPH with stops is roughly how city MPG is calculated.

A hybrid is nearly as efficient traveling with stops as without, which means it usually has a better city MPG than highway due to the lower air resistance at slow speeds. As for the Prius in particular, it's more streamlined than most cars and has low rolling resistance tires which help it get a good highway rating.

What state are you in if not Virginia? Some states have incentives for buying plug-in hybrids or EVs.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

OK, suppose you're driving the same distance at 30MPH vs. 60MPH, with no stop signs or traffic lights. It'll take you twice as long at 30MPH, but you'll use less fuel because there's less air resistance. 60MPH without stops is roughly how highway MPG is calculated.

Now travel the same distance, with a 30MPH speed limit, but add in stop signs or traffic lights. In your old Trooper you'd stop using brakes, and waste energy each time as heat. In a hybrid you'd stop using the motor as a generator, storing 80-90% of the energy in the battery to help you accelerate again. 30MPH with stops is roughly how city MPG is calculated.

A hybrid is nearly as efficient traveling with stops as without, which means it usually has a better city MPG than highway due to the lower air resistance at slow speeds. As for the Prius in particular, it's more streamlined than most cars and has low rolling resistance tires which help it get a good highway rating.

What state are you in if not Virginia? Some states have incentives for buying plug-in hybrids or EVs.

California. I would think there MUST be incentives. Other factors incline me to be a bit cool about it. I'm constantly re-evaluating my personal economic situation. But I should be in good shape, particularly after I cash out that property, and even if I have to drop my asking price.

It's nice to understand this matter of hybrids and mileage specs, and so I thank you all.

 

[BoomerD]

Hybrids get better city mileage because at the lower speeds, they use the electric motor more than they do at highway speeds...plus the regenerative braking thing.

Why Do Hybrid Cars Get Better Gas Mileage for City Driving?

Have you ever noticed that the fuel economy for hybrids is often higher for city driving? We cover the reasons for this phenomenon.

www.motorbiscuit.com

We had a 2013 Ford C-Max for a couple of years. I can confirm there's a big difference in mileage city/highway. Over the 2+ years we owned it, we averaged 42 mpg.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I'm determined to keep the 95 Trooper and Nissan truck in tip-top shape and run them. If I get a new vehicle, it might be in two years or so. I can't say for sure.

I'll have a better idea once i sell my Virginia property. My morale slipped today because I received a low-ball offer from what I call a "real-estate vulture" -- people trading in rental and investment properties who don't plan to live in them. I'm blowing it off and sticking to my asking price.

The things I must consider are my sense of personal decline in two years, and whether I can reinvest the assets to replace or improve on the rental income I had.

Then -- I may consider the hybrid Prius, RAV4 or CR-V. At all costs, I need to avoid "financial stress" which often confounds younger people. I learned my lesson a long time ago. And -- I'm freaking retired on a fixed income.

 

[Dr. Detroit]

The gas savings from a Hybrid is pointless for you as you drive so few miles a year. Why spend an extra $5K+ when that money can be spent on gasoline and stay invested in the market or buy you a vacation or 3?

Breakeven/Payback period will be 20yrs I'm guessing

Hybrid vs Gas Vehicle Savings Calculator - WalletBurst

Compare fuel costs between a hybrid and gas vehicle and see how soon a hybrid vehicle can pay for itself.

walletburst.com

 

[BonzaiDuck]

The gas savings from a Hybrid is pointless for you as you drive so few miles a year. Why spend an extra $5K+ when that money can be spent on gasoline and stay invested in the market or buy you a vacation or 3?

Breakeven/Payback period will be 20yrs I'm guessing

View attachment 97860

Hybrid vs Gas Vehicle Savings Calculator - WalletBurst

Compare fuel costs between a hybrid and gas vehicle and see how soon a hybrid vehicle can pay for itself.

walletburst.com

Actually, thank you Dr. Detroit for your summary analysis. I had already worked this out for myself several times. This is the reason I've held onto two 1995 vehicles for 21 years.

I just went to the Shell station today . . . in So. California . . . . the Premium was $6.19/gal. It wasn't but a few weeks ago I was paying just over $5. But I won't fret about it, as you understand and as I say, I'm driving less than 5,500 miles/annum -- maybe less. The Trooper gets 13 town and 17 highway.

Here's something else, too. Today I went down to my repair shop to speak with the owner there -- we have a "rapport". I just spent $650 to replace the gas-tank sensor feeding the idiot light and needle gauge, and the fuel pump as well. Worth every penny, given the improvements. Maybe in this thread or another one I mentioned a strange behavior of easy starting cold and difficult starting when the engine has been sitting hot for 10 minutes or more. And a fellow Anandtech member likely nailed the problem as a defective fuel pressure regulator or "fuel injection pressure valve" -- a $50 item that requires removal of the intake manifold to make the replacement. The labor is likely something between $500 and $1,000.

Well, sir -- I'm determined to have it done if testing proves my suspicion, even though it doesn't seem like a major problem at the moment. I could wait until next year, since the car has a budget of $1,000 annually for repair and maintenance. And, while we're at it, removal of the intake manifold will also make it easy to remove the EGR valve and either clean it or replace it.

I feel good about this. So let us say that I'm "just investigating" the possibility of a new-car or pre-owned car purchase.

And so I totally agree: it doesn't make sense with my personal driver profile.

Today's story of momentary disaster -- when I went to the shell station, I left my keys in the ignition. I keep a spare set of keys in my fanny pack, but I was lazy today and I had just dumped the fanny-pack in the passenger seat. All the other doors of the car were locked, and I accidentally locked the driver-side door. thus -- locking the keys inside the car at the gas pump. And my cell-phone was in the car as well.

I got someone to call AAA for me, and the AAA guy arrived in less than 20 minutes. I actually drove away feeling good about all of this!

 

[BonzaiDuck]

The gas savings from a Hybrid is pointless for you as you drive so few miles a year. Why spend an extra $5K+ when that money can be spent on gasoline and stay invested in the market or buy you a vacation or 3?

Breakeven/Payback period will be 20yrs I'm guessing

View attachment 97860

Hybrid vs Gas Vehicle Savings Calculator - WalletBurst

Compare fuel costs between a hybrid and gas vehicle and see how soon a hybrid vehicle can pay for itself.

walletburst.com

I've done this analysis myself, and I agree with what you show.

I just acquired a set of good hearing aids. I suddenly hear noises my Trooper makes that I hadn't noticed before. I may have a slow oil leak that Blue Devil isn't fixing, and I was planning to spend $1,000 in the next year to replace the fuel pressure regulator or valve (a $50 part, but high labor expense). Sooner or later, if I need serious engine or transmission work, it may be the time to replace the vehicle, just from a sense of capital budgeting and limitation on sunk-cost.

It's probably good for at least another couple years or 10,000 miles.

UPDATE: First -- the noises: If the oil level drops even a half-quart below full, the engine is noisier. I am slightly mystified that my oil level -- slightly overfilled maybe 8 oz to 16 oz above the high full mark -- dropped to a level requiring 24 oz. Where did it go? ! Couldn't be out the exhaust, because my last smog test was absolutely stellar. Minor leaks showing on the drop pan would not of themselves account for it.

But it has been 1,500 miles since the last oil change. This is something you have to keep an eye on with old cars.

I'm going to talk to Michael, who owns my solid gold repair shop, and we're going to develop a plan. First -- the fuel injection pressure valve sometime before end of year. Then the leaks. I don't think my engine is getting ready to fall apart, though . . .

ANOTHER UPDATE: I think it's possible that the "oil loss" is partly or even mostly due to evaporation of the volatile compounds in a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil that had been mixed with the last oil change. And I think it's time I stopped using it. It has really cleaned out my engine, so mission-accomplished with that . . .

 

[nOOky]

You're 76 and you have enough money. Buy a Corvette and enjoy life. I have a brother that just turned 75. He didn't spend a dime of his retirement because he was worried about having enough money. Now he has a couple months to live and he always wanted an old muscle car or a new equivalent. Too late, but his beneficiaries will enjoy his scrimping and saving.

My wife's aunt is 92. Her goal is to spend all of her money before she dies. She took out a reverse mortgage on her house and she's spending all of the money. I like her goal much better than my brothers. She doesn't give two shits about fuel mileage lol and neither should you. Just my 2 cents, you didn't ask for unsolicited opinions.

 

[evident]

You're 76 and you have enough money. Buy a Corvette and enjoy life. I have a brother that just turned 75. He didn't spend a dime of his retirement because he was worried about having enough money. Now he has a couple months to live and he always wanted an old muscle car or a new equivalent. Too late, but his beneficiaries will enjoy his scrimping and saving.

My wife's aunt is 92. Her goal is to spend all of her money before she dies. She took out a reverse mortgage on her house and she's spending all of the money. I like her goal much better than my brothers. She doesn't give two shits about fuel mileage lol and neither should you. Just my 2 cents, you didn't ask for unsolicited opinions.

I second this sentiment.... You've sacrificed enough driving two really old vehicles all these years. just get what you want to drive within reason i guess. I must say the act of filling up gas is something that I hate doing, so having an EV or plug in hybrid appeals to me...

 

[skyking]

Be comfortable, Duck.
You drive too little to worry about anything else.

 

[NutBucket]

While all of this is accurate, it just isn't for everyone. My parents have plenty of resources but still prefer to live frugally.

 

[manly]

While all of this is accurate, it just isn't for everyone. My parents have plenty of resources but still prefer to live frugally.

I'm also not so sure that on many people's Bucket List is enjoying the wonderful driving dynamics of a Toyota Prius or RAV4. (OK to be fair, the new Prius has gotten good reviews for added pep.)

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Coming back here to post so that the other very helpful posters -- manly, NutBucket, skyking, evident and nOOky -- don't think the fire has gone out and they're gonna freeze.

I had my BIG MEETING with Michael, the owner of my repair shop. That is, after earlier posts where I mentioned driving by the shop, I made a deliberate "pre-opening-hour" appointment with him. The way I do this involves thoughtfully picking up a dozen or two assorted donuts from the Winchell's not far from the shop, and making the Donut Delivery. The technicians love it; Michael and his service advisers love it, and I get my free advice.

This time, we adjourned to the customer TV lounge to sit and talk. I described the symptoms I'd seen over the last month or two. Michael thinks these were just random glitches arising from my jittery fiddling with the ignition key when the car was starting warm (I said it takes a little cranking before it fires up).

They still repair several old Troopers of various model years, and I'd brought him my plumbing repairman who has 3 1988 Troopers, one which had the easy ECM swapout. Jason was really eager to get the business card for Michael and his shop. Today, Michael noted -- across all makes and models they service -- ECMs seldom go bad, and he doesn't think mine has done that. He still leaves open the possibility that he can get extra business from me, offering to replace the ECM with the one I purchased and confirming that it's a 20 minute operation. But with his help I can make informed decisiions. Anyway, I told him and I say here if not already -- I purchased a used ECM with part # **********790 for my model and trim 95 Trooper, and It arrived yesterday. I'll just hold it in reserve.

And as I told Michael in e-mail after Wednesday's visit, I'm just going to keep an eye out for any signs leading again to the ECM issue.

Michael knows and I know that I can just drive the Trooper indefinitely with the oil-pan-gasket leak which continues to smudge my drop pan with fractions of a milliliter per week, with otherwise no noticeable oil loss on the dipstick. I want his guys to test and determine the cause of harder starting under warm-engine conditions. I want to pay for this, even if it doesn't seem necessary at this time or this summer.

I think by summer's end, I'll feel confident enough to drive the Trooper on my 1,000 round-trip visit to Bro and his wife, then across the mountains to see my former HS girlfriend in Grass Valley. The other possibility is to schedule rental of a RAV4 hybrid to drive on my forthcoming trip -- a sort of paid-for long-distance test drive for me.

MY PLAN TO ACQUIRE A NEWER VEHICLE -- Now more definite. I need to cash out my rental property between now and NOvember -- not a terrible burden but keeping up the association fees squishes some of my planned saving deposits. Once done, I now know my bank offers a "Sweep" account giving 4.71% if I merely deposit $100,000 or more initially -- in this case from the rental property.

I can skim $25K or $30K from those proceeds and buy a 4-year-old low-miles RAV4 Hybrid maybe next spring. I'll buy the car outright, fully insure it as you would owing money on it until its value eventually drops below $10,000. Gasoline monthly bills will go down, I will have the old Trooper, the RAV4, and my 95 Hardbody which I will wish to sell.

 

[skyking]

go sit in it for a good long while first. Renting one is a grand idea.
We test drove a 2019 with all the bells and whistles, really liked all the tech.
After 40 minutes with both felt a little kidney punched.
No thanks! We have a 2019 tiguan that suits us better.
That is really all I was saying about being comfortable.

 

[evident]

Check out the lexus nx450h and 450h+ as well.