Question Raptor Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

Since we already have the first Raptor Lake leak I'm thinking it should have it's own thread.
What do we know so far?
From Anandtech's Intel Process Roadmap articles from July:

Built on Intel 7 with upgraded FinFET
10-15% PPW (performance-per-watt)
Last non-tiled consumer CPU as Meteor Lake will be tiled

I'm guessing this will be a minor update to ADL with just a few microarchitecture changes to the cores. The larger change will be the new process refinement allowing 8+16 at the top of the stack.

Will it work with current z690 motherboards? If yes then that could be a major selling point for people to move to ADL rather than wait.

 

[Hulk]

Wait, so Bartlett Lake is Alder Lake+++, right? Got it.

I think the we need to keep the "+" thing going so we instantly know we are talking about Intel refreshes.

 

[jpiniero]

If Bartlett Lake (or anything similar) is real then I think they will do an i7 branded part at least. If not do a full refresh.

If OEMs are running away from Arrow Lake there must be more to it then just not wanting to quit DDR4 quite yet.

 

[DrMrLordX]

The real question is, will Intel actually try squeezing any more performance out of Raptor Lake with Bartlett Lake, or will they just rerelease existing levels of performance at lower prices?

 

[Hulk]

The real question is, will Intel actually try squeezing any more performance out of Raptor Lake with Bartlett Lake, or will they just rerelease existing levels of performance at lower prices?

If I were Intel and looking for a quick buck here is what I would do.

Release a "new" line of CPU's called Bartlett Lake that is below the current Raptor Refresh on the stack, this removes the necessity to release a part faster than the current 14900K.

Now simply take all of the lower Raptor Refresh parts and bump the clocks, cut prices, boom! New price points.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Zero RPM pump that can handle a 13900K: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Gigab...st-CPU-cooling-sans-the-clutter.798520.0.html

Well, almost. It crashed in the 27th loop of Cinebench when temps started approaching 100C. But still kinda impressive that the pump was able to keep the temps under control that long.

 

[Hitman928]

Zero RPM pump that can handle a 13900K: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Gigab...st-CPU-cooling-sans-the-clutter.798520.0.html

Well, almost. It crashed in the 27th loop of Cinebench when temps started approaching 100C. But still kinda impressive that the pump was able to keep the temps under control that long.

*Zero rpm fans with pump running

 

[Ranulf]

My search ability is failing me, has there been any talk about 13th and 14th gen having issues with shader compilation on games that is caused by faulty cpus? Just came across this with people having problems running suicide squad game that just came out. Seems to be only on dx12 games.


This guy had an issue with it last year:

https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/11uftum

and another:

https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/17ku82f

 

[Hitman928]

My search ability is failing me, has there been any talk about 13th and 14th gen having issues with shader compilation on games that is caused by faulty cpus? Just came across this with people having problems running suicide squad game that just came out. Seems to be only on dx12 games.


This guy had an issue with it last year:

https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/11uftum

and another:

https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/17ku82f

For people who are primarily gamers, shader compilation might be the heaviest load they ever put on their CPUs so faulty CPUs or unstable overclocks might get exposed during compilation that aren't exposed at any other time.

 

[Ranulf]

Yeah that seems to be what many were saying, with some getting RMA's from Intel pretty easily or undervolting slightly from stock or OC settings. Others brought up the bracket/socket fitment issues with heatsinks not getting full contact.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Yeah that seems to be what many were saying, with some getting RMA's from Intel pretty easily or undervolting slightly from stock or OC settings. Others brought up the bracket/socket fitment issues with heatsinks not getting full contact.

Is this also possibly a case of some mobo OEMs being too aggressive with PL2 limits and tau lengths?

 

[Ranulf]

Is this also possibly a case of some mobo OEMs being too aggressive with PL2 limits and tau lengths?

Possibly that or MCE settings perhaps.

 

[SteinFG]

Bartlett lake has to be somewhat different from Raptor lake parts (more cache? smaller die?), otherwise there'd be no point in actually releasing it, as 14th gen already exists and won't disappear. My hope is that Arrow lake on desktop is only 8+16 for now (lowest bin will be i5 6P+8E), so bartlett lake is a small 6+4 or 6+8 raptor cove chip with more cache than current golden cove i5-14400/14500

If I were Intel and looking for a quick buck here is what I would do.

Release a "new" line of CPU's called Bartlett Lake that is below the current Raptor Refresh on the stack, this removes the necessity to release a part faster than the current 14900K.

Now simply take all of the lower Raptor Refresh parts and bump the clocks, cut prices, boom! New price points.

Clocks won't help at all, you've seen 14h gen.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Bartlett lake has to be somewhat different from Raptor lake parts

What I hope they will have:

More cache
Refined process to hit higher frequencies at lower TDP
Better iGPU
Possibly NPU

This way they can be sure that OEMs will churn out millions of AI PCs for the masses.

 

[jpiniero]

Bartlett lake has to be somewhat different from Raptor lake parts (more cache? smaller die?), otherwise there'd be no point in actually releasing it, as 14th gen already exists and won't disappear.

Course there would... because it would be "new".

 

[SteinFG]

This way they can be sure that OEMs will churn out millions of AI PCs for the masses.

(just my opinion) Fat graphics and NPU are gimmicks. Classic desktop ryzens and Current Core series don't have either and sell really good. Leave such tasks to the GPU.

because it would be "new".

The new thing next year will be arrow lake. 14th gen was released because there was nothing beter than raptor at that time (on desktop)

 

[igor_kavinski]

The new thing next year will be arrow lake.

They probably won't have enough Arrow Lake dies to fulfill demand in all market segments. I'm not even sure that they will have a Core 5 Ultra 15500/15600 non-K using Arrow Lake dies.

 

[jpiniero]

The new thing next year will be arrow lake.

Could easily be just because OEMs still don't want to move on from DDR4.

 

[Hulk]

Bartlett lake has to be somewhat different from Raptor lake parts (more cache? smaller die?), otherwise there'd be no point in actually releasing it, as 14th gen already exists and won't disappear. My hope is that Arrow lake on desktop is only 8+16 for now (lowest bin will be i5 6P+8E), so bartlett lake is a small 6+4 or 6+8 raptor cove chip with more cache than current golden cove i5-14400/14500

Clocks won't help at all, you've seen 14h gen.

Clocks help plenty lower down the stack where there is room to increase frequency and we know that these are "budget" parts so that is the case here.

Intel doesn't like to cut prices across a stack, they prefer to rename the stack with minor changes and change prices.

They could have released Raptor Refresh as +50 parts 13th gen.

 

[dullard]

Bartlett lake has to be somewhat different from Raptor lake parts (more cache? smaller die?), otherwise there'd be no point in actually releasing it, as 14th gen already exists and won't disappear.

There always is a point for more products. You are just thinking in too narrow of a scope.

Manufacturers of the more expensive electronics (think CPUs, TVs, etc) don't normally lower prices. What they do is release a new part number of basically the same thing with a lower price point. Sometimes the parts are so identical, that you can't even see a difference in the specs--just the model number changes.

Here is an example of a midline chip with essentially no change other than price:

• i5 7500 4 cores, 4 threads, 3.6 GHz, 6 MB cache, HD630 graphics at 1100 MHz, 65 W, $202
• i3 8100 4 cores, 4 threads, 3.6 GHz, 6 MB cache, HD630 graphics at 1100 MHz, 65 W, $117

You get a 42% price drop by releasing this "new" chip.

Intel doesn't like to cut prices across a stack, they prefer to rename the stack with minor changes and change prices.

Exactly.

 

[Hulk]

So my e-bay CPU return turned out to be a total mess, as expected. I sell my 13600K on e-bay and get a request for refund for a defective product. I call e-bay and they tell me just just accept the return/refund, if the chip is indeed dead e-bay will reimburse you. Okay fine.

CPU comes back to me, yeah it's dead. I call e-bay and they tell me that is not their policy (what the first guy told me) and they can't find a record of that phone call. Case closed, sorry and goodbye.

So I'm out one 13600K that was working literally 10 minutes before I pulled it and sent it. Packed in original Intel packing, inside a box. Unlikely it failed in the mail.

Anyway it gets better. Somehow when I tested the CPU I damaged my socket pins! Must have bumped it with the heatsink or something (Hulk smash), moving too quickly. So now I have a dead motherboard and a dead processor.

Mobo was an Asus Z690-Plus-D4. Replaced it with a Asus Z790-Plus-D4, didn't want to upgrade memory just yet. Luckily no reinstall of Windows needed what a waste of time.

I guess the lesson of the story is be really careful around the CPU socket and selling CPU's on e-bay.

 

[coercitiv]

Mobo was an Asus Z690-Plus-D4. Replaced it with a Asus Z790-Plus-D4, didn't want to upgrade memory just yet.

Last night when I saw your post I thought this was a missed opportunity to go for a better quality motherboard. I'm still convinced that some of your issues with undervolting and/or high power stability were partially influenced by the "entry level" model. This morning though... I think it's fine, I'm under the impression you caught the hardware bug anyway and will be upgrading to Alder Lake, so going with the highest value part is a good idea.

I'm sorry about the e-bay story, a real shame, but the rest is just part of the hobby: if you're not breaking things (and learning) then you're probably not having enough fun.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Intel's Halo defense against Zen 5 (other than price cuts) running in OCCT: https://videocardz.com/newz/unrelea...ture-6-2-ghz-turbo-clock-and-150w-default-tdp

409 Watts. So better to have a 1600W PSU for a future with Geforce 5090.

 

[Hulk]

Intel's Halo defense against Zen 5 (other than price cuts) running in OCCT: https://videocardz.com/newz/unrelea...ture-6-2-ghz-turbo-clock-and-150w-default-tdp

409 Watts. So better to have a 1600W PSU for a future with Geforce 5090.

13900K
13900KS (overclock edition)
14900K (overclock of the overclock edition)
14900KS (overclock of the overclock of the overclock edition)

Or in Intel parlance...
13900K
13900K+
13900K++
13900K++

I'm sorry but anytime I can bring back the plusses I'm there.

Four releases for basically the same CPU. Intel is pushing the bar a little higher every time for Arrow Lake top bin performance. It might come back to bite them.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Intel is pushing the bar a little higher every time for Arrow Lake top bin performance. It might come back to bite them.

If I were Pat, I would have instructed them to backport Arrow Lake to Intel 7++++ , just in case the ARL based desktop Core Ultra 9 on 20A misses the mark. They could fit the newer arch on the older process by taking out every non-essential thing and even go for something like 6P+12E without HT. It would be kinda meh in MT but it should theoretically be formidable in ST, at least compared to 14900KS if they are able to clock the backported ARL up to 6 GHz minimum.

 

[HurleyBird]

They could fit the newer arch on the older process by taking out every non-essential thing

That didn't work out very well for Rocket Lake.