Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[Markfw]

I am curious; what other types of cards do people add with so much built into the motherboard these days (USB, network, SATA, m.2, sound, etc)? I would expect that a huge number of systems add a video card and that is all. That says to me that the form factor is likely headed towards being obsolete. A lot of people just use a laptop at best these days and don’t own a desktop.

Yes, one video card, but many people (like me and the previous poster) have another card that requires PCIE x4,x8 or x16. But thats about it. 2 slots is more than enough, but that gives more room on the motherboard for M.2 drives, and their use is expanding. Many people now have more than one of these and some have NO sata or spinning drives.

 

[ryanjagtap]

With some reviews of RDNA2 igpu (both the 6800U and the 6900HS) can we extrapolate the performance of the 4 CU/2 WGP igpu in the Raphael desktop CPUs? What are the expectations? Do you think AMD will include the encoder as well?

 

[tomatosummit]

I am curious; what other types of cards do people add with so much built into the motherboard these days (USB, network, SATA, m.2, sound, etc)? I would expect that a huge number of systems add a video card and that is all. That says to me that the form factor is likely headed towards being obsolete. A lot of people just use a laptop at best these days and don’t own a desktop.

If everyone uses a laptop then the desktop platforms would have to fulfill more niches rather less and more headers, slots and ports are the way to do that. Alhough I personally only seem to run into usb port limits and finding a good hub is torture.

I think it's more that the desktop atx form factors need to die off already.
Something like putting a 2-4 of e.1s(25mm) slots into cases connected with oculink or something, have them replace tertiary add in cards and push m.2 ssds out of the way while retaining compatability with them because m2 cards are laptop trash.
Then graphics cards could goto oam form factors, putting them on the same place as a cpu and alowing use tower coolers.

 

[biostud]

I am curious; what other types of cards do people add with so much built into the motherboard these days (USB, network, SATA, m.2, sound, etc)? I would expect that a huge number of systems add a video card and that is all. That says to me that the form factor is likely headed towards being obsolete. A lot of people just use a laptop at best these days and don’t own a desktop.

Personally, a dedicated soundcard, although lots of audiophiles would rather buy an external USB DAC.

 

[dnavas]

...push m.2 ssds out of the way while retaining compatability with them...

The cooling that is being talked about for pcie6 m.2 is going to be ... interesting :| I wonder if there are cooling pipes for those pcie5 m.2 slots?

 

[Asterox]

With some reviews of RDNA2 igpu (both the 6800U and the 6900HS) can we extrapolate the performance of the 4 CU/2 WGP igpu in the Raphael desktop CPUs? What are the expectations? Do you think AMD will include the encoder as well?

Yes, Raphael APU/CPU will have VCN hardwer as with any AMD Ryzen APU.

Video Core Next - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

RDNA2 4 CU gaming FPS, as example probably double FPS vs old Vega 3 iGPU.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Sorry for the noobish question, but is Zen 4 expected to have big bumps in single core performance vs 12th gen Intel and the Ryzen 5000 series? Or multicore performance? Was looking to do a platform upgrade focused largely on emulation performance (yuzu / ryujinx / RPCS3) but still close enough to R7 3700x multicore performance to not fall behind in AAA gaming either this gen (targeting 60 fps). Wondering if it's likely I might be really sorry I didn't wait for Zen 4 and upgraded to a 12400F or 5600X instead since emulation is so cpu dependent.

 

[Thibsie]

Personally, a dedicated soundcard, although lots of audiophiles would rather buy an external USB DAC.

Yep Steinberg UR22 and a small USB DAC.

 

[eek2121]

You're forgetting about Rembrandt although I suppose the desktop release could be cancelled. There obviously isn't a point of launching AM5 without a processor to go with it. Maybe just a teaser?

They specifically stated Zen 4, which excludes Rembrandt. Speculation is that Rembrandt may launch later on, however, I'm not sold on that.

Yes, one video card, but many people (like me and the previous poster) have another card that requires PCIE x4,x8 or x16. But thats about it. 2 slots is more than enough, but that gives more room on the motherboard for M.2 drives, and their use is expanding. Many people now have more than one of these and some have NO sata or spinning drives.

Just seems like a design catered to a gamer. Shoot, as someone that uses his PCIE slots, even I "only" have 3 PCIE devices. There are boards due to be announced that have more. Unsure that I would have an issue using a 2 slot board provided other IO is up to snuff.

 

[eek2121]

Sorry for the noobish question, but is Zen 4 expected to have big bumps in single core performance vs 12th gen Intel and the Ryzen 5000 series? Or multicore performance? Was looking to do a platform upgrade focused largely on emulation performance (yuzu / ryujinx / RPCS3) but still close enough to R7 3700x multicore performance to not fall behind in AAA gaming either this gen (targeting 60 fps). Wondering if it's likely I might be really sorry I didn't wait for Zen 4 and upgraded to a 12400F or 5600X instead since emulation is so cpu dependent.

Zen 4 will be faster than Alder Lake based on current rumored performance claims. and not insignificantly so.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Sorry for the noobish question, but is Zen 4 expected to have big bumps in single core performance vs 12th gen Intel and the Ryzen 5000 series?

https://www.pcgamer.com/dr-lisa-su-is-teasing-amd-zen-4-cpu-details-on-monday-and-gigabyte-is-promising-am5-boards/

We may find out on Monday.

 

[deasd]

So funny that X670E/B650-CREATOR was already leaked in 2020 accidently lol...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1527631344901058562

[ProArt Motherboard] ProArt Creator Hub - Introduction | Official Support | ASUS Global

[ProArt Motherboard] ProArt Creator Hub - Introduction
Last Update : 2020/06/05 10:39
Product ProArt B550-CREATOR, ProArt B650-CREATOR, ProArt B660-CREATOR D4, ProArt X570-CREATOR WIFI, ProArt X670E-CREATOR WIFI, ProArt Z490-CREATOR 10G, ProArt Z690-CREATOR WIFI

also: ASUS PRIME Z670-P WIFI

https://twitter.com/x/status/1527892979142098945

 

[xilli_fiberbit]

This configuration with dual chipset will reduce the room for PCIe slot or NVME port, the X570 taichi has 5 PCIe port and the X670 taichi seems to have only 2

 

[DrMrLordX]

AM5 supports cooler designed for AM4 so the size is similar for both

Huh! Does that mean I can re-use my waterblock? Guess I'll have to ask Watercool.de to be sure, but if it does . . .

that gives more room on the motherboard for M.2 drives, and their use is expanding. Many people now have more than one of these and some have NO sata or spinning drives.

If I get a new NVMe drive in September then my next system will have three: my old BPX, my existing 970 Evo, and whatever I get to replace the Evo as the boot drive.

 

[Kedas]

Noctua already stated a long time ago that with the exception of 2 low profile coolers you can use your AM4 cooler on AM5.

Which Noctua CPU coolers are compatible with AMD AM5?

AM5 (LGA 1718) is AMD’s current socket for its next-generation Ryzen 7000 (Zen 4) series processors. Please refer to our socket compatibility overview in the Noctua Compatibility Centre (NCC) to see which Noctua CPU cooler models support the AM5 ...

noctua.at

About losing space with dual chip: adding extra chips in between lanes to cover the distance isn't really saving space either, I think it's the better solution to add an extra node for going to PCIE5 over a distance.
One node covers the left side of the motherboard the other the right side.

 

[eek2121]

Huh! Does that mean I can re-use my waterblock? Guess I'll have to ask Watercool.de to be sure, but if it does . . .



If I get a new NVMe drive in September then my next system will have three: my old BPX, my existing 970 Evo, and whatever I get to replace the Evo as the boot drive.

If you can afford it, I recommend a high end PCIE 4.0 or faster driver. While it certainly wasn’t like the jump from spinning rust to SSD, I certainly noticed the difference when moving from my 970 evo to the PCIE 4.0 drive I have now.

 

[igor_kavinski]

If you can afford it, I recommend a high end PCIE 4.0 or faster driver. While it certainly wasn’t like the jump from spinning rust to SSD, I certainly noticed the difference when moving from my 970 evo to the PCIE 4.0 drive I have now.

Agree. Plus, going forward, PCIe 4.0 is going to be required for future games ported from PS5/XbsX, if you want to enjoy seamless almost real time texture loading.

 

[CakeMonster]

Sure, buying right now, might as well go with PCIE4 for a new drive but I really doubt its noticeable given how close the practical use benchmarks are. But in general, if on PCIE3 now, I'd rather wait for new flash and a new denser and faster generation on upcoming controllers.

As for gaming and DirectStorage, it supports PCIE3, and there is just no way that games with that new feature are not going to have a huge safety margin to avoid artifacts and a bad experience. That's no issue for developers either, as PCIE4 or PCIE5 max burst is no point in aiming for since its hardly possible to create a gaming scenario you'd need that right now. The possibilities opening up with DS by not needing to cater to SATA speeds are mind blowing in itself.

 

[Mopetar]

I thought it was a weird layout too. Who needs two PCIe x16 slots nowadays, except for some special professional work.

Ever since the talk of Radeon GPUs moving to an MCM design emerged, I've wondered what trick they would pull to ensure it didn't have the same kinds of performance issues that Crossfire/SLI would have.

While there is still some debate as to the degree to which AMDs RDNA3 GPUs will have anything resembling shader chiplets, if they were able to create such a design, what would prevent it from scaling well in a crossfire set up?

I don't really believe that this signals that such GPUs are coming, but it is an interesting thought.

 

[Ajay]

This configuration with dual chipset will reduce the room for PCIe slot or NVME port, the X570 taichi has 5 PCIe port and the X670 taichi seems to have only 2

Yeah, there's only two M.2 connectors shown. ASUS could include a PCIe riser board for extra M.2 drives.

Edit: my bad, didn't see the one above the PCIe slot for the GFX card, next to the CPU socket. Duh.

 

[Saylick]

According to Greymon, it can boost to 5.45 Ghz, so the rumors of ~10% higher clocks looks on track.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1528044555555119105

 

[Ajay]

According to Greymon, it can boost to 5.45 Ghz, so the rumors of ~10% higher clocks looks on track.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1528044555555119105

If some of these rumors/leaks are actually true - Raphael is going to be a monster. Sadly, at list initially, it will come with a monster price tag (new mobo and DDR5 are likely pricey for those of us who buy near the top tier).

 

[inf64]

If some of these rumors/leaks are actually true - Raphael is going to be a monster. Sadly, at list initially, it will come with a monster price tag (new mobo and DDR5 are likely pricey for those of us who buy near the top tier).

Top performance = very high price. That's how it's been since the dawn of time.

I expect Raphael to top anything Raptor Lake can offer and then some. AMD will be a premium platform, as in the days of Zen3, but it's ok, as we will have lower tier SKUs to pick as well.

 

[Saylick]

If some of these rumors/leaks are actually true - Raphael is going to be a monster. Sadly, at list initially, it will come with a monster price tag (new mobo and DDR5 are likely pricey for those of us who buy near the top tier).

Unfortunately that is the reality of the modern era due to the rising R&D costs of developing new tech. $/xtor ain't going down, and chiplets/advanced packaging is only good enough to slow down rising costs or to overcome reticle limits. The good news is that we're moving away from general purpose compute towards application specific accelerators, which are far more efficient on a xtor basis.

At least with AM5, I've read that they've overdesigned the mobos for future CPUs. That includes making sure the mobo memory is large enough for future AGESAs and adding more VRMs for higher wattage SKUs. The issues of AM4 compatibility and the resulting consumer dissatisfaction should hopefully be less of a problem. AM5 will be supported for years to come, so at least there's the bright side of knowing if you buy an AM5 mobo from a well-respected brand you will likely be able to use it for a long time.

 

[biostud]

Unfortunately that is the reality of the modern era due to the rising R&D costs of developing new tech. $/xtor ain't going down, and chiplets/advanced packaging is only good enough to slow down rising costs or to overcome reticle limits. The good news is that we're moving away from general purpose compute towards application specific accelerators, which are far more efficient on a xtor basis.

At least with AM5, I've read that they've overdesigned the mobos for future CPUs. That includes making sure the mobo memory is large enough for future AGESAs and adding more VRMs for higher wattage SKUs. The issues of AM4 compatibility and the resulting consumer dissatisfaction should hopefully be less of a problem. AM5 will be supported for years to come, so at least there's the bright side of knowing if you buy an AM5 mobo from a well-respected brand you will likely be able to use it for a long time.

Let's hope so. The longer we can use our electronics, the better. If I had the option of buying a 8 core CPU with 30-40% better single threaded performance for my current setup I would just do that. And that is what I hope will happen for AM5 starting with zen4 until the last CPU for socket AM5.