Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Anyone else seeing the attempts by the usual suspects to compare Zen 4 to Bulldozer?

Found one -

From here -

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/xsw0qx

Haven't decided if it is clever trolling, or idiots are gaslit that easily.

 

[deasd]

the B650 price is pretty identical to B660 from last year:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1576212585577205767

Full MSI B660 Motherboard List With Prices Leaks Out, All DDR5 Boards Aimed at the Mainstream & Entry-Level Segment

The full list of MSI's B660 DDR5 motherboards for mainstream & entry-level PC builders has leaked out along with its pricing.

wccftech.com

MAG B660 Tomahawk WiFi - $259 US
MAG B660M Mortar WiFi - $239 US
MAG B660M Mortar - $219 US
MAG B660M Bazooka - $199 US
PRO B660-A - $209 US
PRO B660M-A- WiFi- $209 US
PRO B660M-A - $189 US
PRO B660M-G - $139 US
PRO B660M-B - $129 US
PRO B660M-E - $119 US

https://twitter.com/x/status/1466812876585598976

 

[maddie]

Anyone else seeing the attempts by the usual suspects to compare Zen 4 to Bulldozer?

Found one -

From here -

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/xsw0qx

Haven't decided if it is clever trolling, or idiots are gaslit that easily.

The latter.

The problem is, no idiot is smart enough to see that they're an idiot.

 

[igor_kavinski]

The problem is, no idiot is smart enough to see that they're an idiot.

I'm not sure. Maybe some of them are afraid to be ousted from their community of idiots

 

[LightningZ71]

What do you mean - expensive?
Threadripper Pro 5995WX with 128 PCIE lanes and 64 cores costs 6500 USD.
Ryzen 5950X with 24 PCIE lanes and 16 cores costs 800 USD.

If you are a proffessional who can productively use that computing power and connectivity of the Threadripper, it is CHEAP. This is a proffessional workstation stuff, not HEDT.

AMD has now the lowest end covered with AM4.
Mid level and HEDT with AM5.

12 and 16 cores CPUs for AM5 are HEDT.

This continues to be a hole in the market that is just not getting served. The 7950x is every bit as powerful as the 3960x/3970x threadrippers on the compute side, and much faster in single thread. The only lacking part of the puzzle as compared to the threadripper platform is I/O.

It doesn't have to be that way. There are PCIe fan-out switch chips that exist that can take the PCIe 5.0 X16 PEG link and spread that out to multiple x16 slots on the motherboard. That's enough bandwidth to allow 4 professional video cards to all work at just about full speed constantly as most of them can barely saturate an x16 3.0 link. We know that they don't keep the bus busy 100% of the time individually, so the saturation issue is even less of a problem than people might imagine. Its unfortunate that no one is brave enough to make a motherboard for that application! This is at the beginning of AM5s life. For the next 3+ years, there will be multiple CPUs made for it that are dramatically faster than the 7950x. PCIe 6 may be due to hit the market soon, but, it's a fairly dramatic change in signaling and will likely be slow to see non-server adoption, especially since there's very little on the workstation or desktop side that can actually make use of that much bandwidth at present. Plus, there's the additional x4 link from the processor now that can drive a 5th slot for less demanding or narrower cards. There is also the possibility of driving a pair of x1 slots or an additional x4 slot from the chipset. That's plenty for a lower end workstation/HEDT board.

The best that we get right now (and, admittedly, it's not a trivial thing) is a motherboard that has the PEG slot bifurcated down to a pair of x8 slots, plus an additional x4 slot from the CPU and MAYBE a pair of x1 4.0 slots from the chipset. Unfortunately, a lot of pro level cards aren't PCIe 4.0 yet, or, the existing 3.0 ones still have a lot of useful life and there's no other reason to upgrade them, so the 5.0 x4 slot will be a notable handicap for those cards. It's not awful, but, it's not enough for a fair chunk of workstation/HEDT tasks.

 

[DrMrLordX]

12 and 16 cores CPUs for AM5 are HEDT.

There are prosumers out there that want more connectivity than what AM5 offers but don't necessarily need 64c machines ala 5995wx. For those people, AM5 is most certainly not HEDT.

 

[Kaluan]

the B650 price is pretty identical to B660 from last year:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1576212585577205767

Full MSI B660 Motherboard List With Prices Leaks Out, All DDR5 Boards Aimed at the Mainstream & Entry-Level Segment

The full list of MSI's B660 DDR5 motherboards for mainstream & entry-level PC builders has leaked out along with its pricing.

wccftech.com

MAG B660 Tomahawk WiFi - $259 US
MAG B660M Mortar WiFi - $239 US
MAG B660M Mortar - $219 US
MAG B660M Bazooka - $199 US
PRO B660-A - $209 US
PRO B660M-A- WiFi- $209 US
PRO B660M-A - $189 US
PRO B660M-G - $139 US
PRO B660M-B - $129 US
PRO B660M-E - $119 US

https://twitter.com/x/status/1466812876585598976

Thank you for the context. This is arguably good news, all things considered. Wish all mobos were cheaper overall tho.

Question: Why do like literally ALL AM5 mobos (so far) have to come with integrated WIFI? Is this a mandatory AM5 spec I missed?

Anyway, can't wait to see reviews of the low end B650s. These might be the boards I'll recommend in H2 2023 for performance APU builds. Fingers crossed they go straight to Phoenix Point on AM5 desktop next year.

 

[eek2121]

What do you mean - expensive?
Threadripper Pro 5995WX with 128 PCIE lanes and 64 cores costs 6500 USD.
Ryzen 5950X with 24 PCIE lanes and 16 cores costs 800 USD.

If you are a proffessional who can productively use that computing power and connectivity of the Threadripper, it is CHEAP. This is a proffessional workstation stuff, not HEDT.

AMD has now the lowest end covered with AM4.
Mid level and HEDT with AM5.

12 and 16 cores CPUs for AM5 are HEDT.

Hard disagree. I priced out a 5995wx system before, and it was well north of 10 grand for the CPU, motherboard, 8 DIMMs, a PSU, case, SSD, sufficient cooler, and GPU. I make money using my computer and that is a bit steep even for me. Prices have come down slightly since then, however people have internal price points for what they are willing to pay.

Apple actually has the better value in the mid-core count range. APPLE. High Margin loving Apple. A Threadripper Pro workstation with 24-64 cores and 64-128gb will set you back 8-20 grand. A 64gb Mac Studio is 3 grand. Small businesses can't afford that kind of cash, not when you can get 80-90% of the performance (M1 Ultra) for half the cost (compared to the 24-32 core Threadripper parts). Also, note that if AMD charged the same per-core pricing as the 7950X, the 5995WX would be half the cost.

AM5 is only dual channel memory and needs more IO to be HEDT. AMD does not consider any Ryzen chip to be HEDT.

I'm not necessarily arguing about the top end btw (though it wouldn't hurt AMD to charge a bit less), my argument is with the mid-range. 24, 32, 48 cores. That market is part of the TAM and is not addressed by anyone except Apple (somewhat) currently. AMD used to be in this market, however now their stuff is way overpriced. $1,000 for a motherboard, $3,500 for a 32 core CPU, not to mention the cost of 8 (!!!) DIMMs. They need a mid-range solution.

 

[Kocicak]

There are prosumers out there that want more connectivity than what AM5 offers but don't necessarily need 64c machines ala 5995wx. For those people, AM5 is most certainly not HEDT.

I would argue that prosumer needing connectivity could swallow paying 24 hundred for 24 core Threadripper easily. If not, he is not a REAL PROsumer.

 

[Kocicak]

BTW I may be reading "HEDT" literally. I see no W for workstation or P for proffessional in there.

 

[eek2121]

I would argue that prosumer needing connectivity could swallow paying 24 hundred for 24 core Threadripper easily. If not, he is not a REAL PROsumer.

Again, I would argue that the 24 core Threadripper is a poor value. For $3,000 you can get a Mac Studio with 64gb of RAM that has slightly better single core performance and similar multicore performance. You also need to factor in the total cost of the system. I will get off my soapbox now.

 

[Kocicak]

Again, I would argue that the 24 core Threadripper is a poor value. For $3,000 you can get a Mac Studio with 64gb of RAM

I just visited Apple store and it is FOUR grand for a sealed little box, in/to which you cannot swap/add anything. It looks very pretty.

 

[Mopetar]

Anyone else seeing the attempts by the usual suspects to compare Zen 4 to Bulldozer?

Found one -

From here -

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/xsw0qx

Haven't decided if it is clever trolling, or idiots are gaslit that easily.

Honestly if AMD says you can run Zen 4 up to 115 C, you could set the targets to slightly above 100 C and use it to boil water. If you use distilled water for anything you can repurpose the waste heat from your CPU into useful work.

I just think it's a funny picture because 95 C is a lot hotter than most people are comfortable with. Not every silly meme is haters or trolls.

 

[Panino Manino]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1576335723044622337

Zen 4's AVX512 will make any noticeable difference on this emulator or not after all?

 

[Kedas]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1576335723044622337

Zen 4's AVX512 will make any noticeable difference on this emulator or not after all?

That's funny if true

(BTW PS3 emulator improvement were already posted somewhere I think)

 

[maddie]

Honestly if AMD says you can run Zen 4 up to 115 C, you could set the targets to slightly above 100 C and use it to boil water. If you use distilled water for anything you can repurpose the waste heat from your CPU into useful work.

I just think it's a funny picture because 95 C is a lot hotter than most people are comfortable with. Not every silly meme is haters or trolls.

What I at least haven't seen is what exactly is this 95 C reading means. It must apply to critical sensors on some specific part of the die. The circuitry in that area should be temp hardened for this. Certainly the cache areas should not be this, for example, and the whole die average will be lower. In other words, Tj 95 C max does not relate to how we measured temp many yrs ago.

 

[repoman0]

Question: Why do like literally ALL AM5 mobos (so far) have to come with integrated WIFI? Is this a mandatory AM5 spec I missed?

The wifi on my particular board has been a welcome surprise. It’s as fast as my AC1900 tri-antenna monstrosity PCI-e card with only the tiny dual antennas that came with the board. Guessing it will work out of the box with Linux too once I get around to installing since it’s Intel/Killer rather than Broadcom.

Nice to be able to pull that pci-e card for a cleaner build.

 

[uzzi38]

That's funny if true

(BTW PS3 emulator improvement were already posted somewhere I think)

Yes, but base performance is relatively lower than comparable Intel parts. So AVX512 lets AMD get ahead of Alder Lake by a small amount, but without AVX-512 it would be quite far behind.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I just think it's a funny picture because 95 C is a lot hotter than most people are comfortable with. Not every silly meme is haters or trolls.

That's fair. But that's not how I see it in this instance. Because pearl clutching and invoking the infamous AMD failure, is straight up trolling IMO. Also, If they are uncomfortable with a product that is thermal limited by design, don't buy it. Use that money to buy a clue instead.

 

[ondma]

That's fair. But that's not how I see it in this instance. Because pearl clutching and invoking the infamous AMD failure, is straight up trolling IMO. Also, If they are uncomfortable with a product that is thermal limited by design, don't buy it. Use that money to buy a clue instead.

Well, I have seen posts comparing AL and RPL to pentium, so it is a two way street I guess.
In any case, I dont see it as a big deal for either. One can always set the temp to a lower limit in BIOS.

 

[Kaluan]

Honestly if AMD says you can run Zen 4 up to 115 C, you could set the targets to slightly above 100 C and use it to boil water. If you use distilled water for anything you can repurpose the waste heat from your CPU into useful work.

I just think it's a funny picture because 95 C is a lot hotter than most people are comfortable with. Not every silly meme is haters or trolls.

Oh please, plenty of people were more than just content to run their GTX 480s at 100C+ sustained during gaming, or 95C on their 290Xs.

Don't even get me started about laptops...

But the biggest oof people that troll about 95C BY DESIGN can make is when they deliberately ignore how Alder Lake can go over 95 easily while under load, on good cooling.
And everything points to Raptor Lake being even hotter.

The wifi on my particular board has been a welcome surprise. It’s as fast as my AC1900 tri-antenna monstrosity PCI-e card with only the tiny dual antennas that came with the board. Guessing it will work out of the box with Linux too once I get around to installing since it’s Intel/Killer rather than Broadcom.

Nice to be able to pull that pci-e card for a cleaner build.

Ah yes ofc, I welcome integrated wifi myself. I was just curious if it's mandatory for B650/X670 boards or just a new trend, for AMD platforms in particular.

 

[deasd]

That's funny if true

(BTW PS3 emulator improvement were already posted somewhere I think)

there's two RPCS3 screenshot which showed 7950X with AVX512 ON/OFF

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/692387066365083678/1025520305923444837/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/692387066365083678/1025510674811592825/unknown.png

so after all Zen4's AVX512 indeed has a nice boost in newest version RPCS3, but there's no intuitive comparison to other CPUs yet.

 

[biostud]

Honestly if AMD says you can run Zen 4 up to 115 C, you could set the targets to slightly above 100 C and use it to boil water. If you use distilled water for anything you can repurpose the waste heat from your CPU into useful work.

I just think it's a funny picture because 95 C is a lot hotter than most people are comfortable with. Not every silly meme is haters or trolls.

Oil cooling is the next frontier (and not those systems submerged in oil)

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Well, I have seen posts comparing AL and RPL to pentium, so it is a two way street I guess.
In any case, I dont see it as a big deal for either. One can always set the temp to a lower limit in BIOS.

Which Pentium? Pentium was THE CPU to have until Athlon caught up. Northwood was a good overclocker, I vaguely remember harvesting a Dell for one because they had better stepping. Prescott was dubbed Presshot, is that what the trolls were using? If so, they definitely needed pimp slapping too.

If you are a PC gamer, now is a great time to be in the hobby. Been a loooong time since we had so many choices for GPUs, CPUs, boards, and ram that are all worthwhile.

 

[inf64]

there's two RPCS3 screenshot which showed 7950X with AVX512 ON/OFF

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/692387066365083678/1025520305923444837/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/692387066365083678/1025510674811592825/unknown.png

View attachment 68637 View attachment 68638



so after all Zen4's AVX512 indeed has a nice boost in newest version RPCS3, but there's no intuitive comparison to other CPUs yet.

I found this on reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/rpcs3/comments/xs78s1

Before the update (25fps):


After the update (65fps):


Almost 3x improvement.

Zen 4 is officially on their CPU tier list (top of the line performance, their "S" tier"):

RPCS3 CPU DATA

RPCS3 - DESKTOP CPU TIER LIST S Tier - The absolute best. Performance far above what a PlayStation 3 can achieve.,<a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/rpcs3/comments/tqt1ko/clearing_up_some_avx512_misinformation_and_how_to/">How to find a 12th gen CPU with AVX512 and clearing some misinformation a...

docs.google.com