Discussion [WCCFTech] What’s Up With The Missing NVIDIA DLSS Support In AMD Sponsored FSR Titles?

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tajoh111

Senior member
Mar 28, 2005
299
312
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Where am I making excuses?

You keep giving cover to AMD, when pretty much All the media outlets at this point have come to the same obvious conclusion.

You can't keep bringing up WCCFtech like the boogeyman. No one is relying on them, they might have been the first to point it out, but since then major outlets like GN and HWUB did their own research, reached out to AMD independently.

Emotions cause people to act and think irrationally.

Hardware unboxed and Gamers nexus are impartial to both companies with actually more bias towards AMD. Being able to remove emotions from the equation, a person is generally able to make better and more concise decisions.

With emotions blinding some people, they are unable to realize, that this blocking technology hurts everyone that is a consumer. If DLSS is present in the same game as FSR2, FSR2 is shown to be inferior of FSR2, which is why AMD does not want this comparison. However while hurting AMD, should actually encourage them to improve the technology which would be a benefit for all gamers. Additionally, if AMD starts blocking DLSS, there is nothing to stop Nvidia from doing the same thing. When AMD lowers the bar, it hurts all consumers because it enables Nvidia.

One just has to look at the 7870. This was a mid range die at best at 212mm2 on cheap 28nm, where wafer cost was around $3000 dollars per wafer, But how much did the 7870 cost? $350 dollars. That is $450 dollars today and wafers are not $16000 dollars like today. In addition when it launched, there was zero improvement to performance per dollar. There was actually regression much like today's cards.

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-hd-7850-hd-7870/28.html

Wafer cost wasn't even a potential excuse during this time, but there was not much blow back because AMD is the little guy, However the consequences was Nvidia got to do the same thing because AMD did it first. With Kepler and Nvidia generally bringing improvements to performance per dollar while doing the die shift AMD did first, Nvidia was able to be herald as heroes and AMD destroyed its good will. It got to the point AMD had to do 20-30% price cuts while throwing in 3 triple AAA cards to sell their cards because of AMD's mindshare blunder.

Actually the whole 7xxx series in general was the same. AMD was the progenator of charging big money for little improvement, with small dies and pricing things according to improvements vs last generation.

If AMD starts blocking DLSS, what's to stop Nvidia from the same behavior? Nvidia has given AMD every opportunity to gain mindshare this generation and they keep on blowing it. Hate marketing can only go so far and this type of marketing has made the GPU market, toxic for both players.

People expecting/asking to see a contract are doing so in bad faith. The chances of an actual contract leaking are slim as the number of people to see this contract will be very low(easy to trace leak) and likely on the executive level. Why would someone employed at either company leak this contract. AMD has no reason to show it if it does show a blocking DLSS clause.

What they can do is clarify this statement if they are indeed not blocking DLSS. Media outlets with millions of subscribers are given them the opportunity to clear the air and give them the chance to show they are the good guys in the industry. This no comment when being asked from the media this direct question shows AMD is highly likely blocking DLSS as saying they are not blocking DLSS only leads to positive outcomes and nips this rumor in the bud before it gains more traction.

To address one more comment why this is topic is gaining traction even though FSR can be used on all platforms stems from two things.

DLSS is superior to FSR in terms of image quality and Nvidia represents 80% plus percent of the market. This move is more likely to piss off most of the videocard market than get on the FSR band wagon. IF FSR was superior over DLSS in terms of image quality or AMD represented the majority of the market, most of this controversy would go away.
 
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Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,238
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Sometimes the "better" tech loses. Y'all took the risk when you purchased a Product with Proprietary technology. Sometimes it is not supported, no matter how good it may be.

In case you haven't noticed, DLSS is in more games than FSR. It's really only in AMD partner games where there is any trend favoring FSR, and those aren't most of the game market.

The future going forward is likely just going to be more games having all the scalers, because really the work to do one is similar to work to just do them all.
 

Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,645
5,379
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A. I have come to the conclusion AMD is guilty. guilty guilty guilty.

B.
Most of the people making a big deal out of this, are the ones that don't buy their stuff anyways.
Pretty much nails it.

C.
AMDs open source drivers, etc etc all those years never did them any favors, any good, etc.

So AMD decided to start acting like Nvidia while they still have some marketshare left to do it with. Seriously, what does AMD have left to lose at this point? 8%?


on the flip side can Nvidia go after AMD more then they already are? Nvidia has been throwing proprietary stuff at AMD for over a decade, gameworks, dlss, etc. Going any further drags the likes of MS and Sony into the fight.
 
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KompuKare

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,039
1,022
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The future going forward is likely just going to be more games having all the scalers, because really the work to do one is similar to work to just do them all.
Agreed, and as I've said before it really is on the vendor who isn't in the consoles to make this as easy as possible. Streamline currently just doesn't seem a truly neutral wrapper so I can't see that becoming universal unless Nvidia change course.

Since DLSS looks better than FSR (less sure about how it stands vs XeSS), Nvidia would actually gain from this. It is just that Streamline has to be 100% neutral, even the slightest hint of hindering FSR or XeSS and this won't work.
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,238
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What they can do is clarify this statement if they are indeed not blocking DLSS. Media outlets with millions of subscribers are given them the opportunity to clear the air and give them the chance to show they are the good guys in the industry. This no comment when being asked from the media this direct question shows AMD is highly likely blocking DLSS as saying they are not blocking DLSS only leads to positive outcomes and nips this rumor in the bud before it gains more traction.


My view of the baffling lack of answer from AMD is that they definitely have some partner deals that block DLSS technology. The question is do they plan to just duck the question forever, or do something a bit more constructive.

AMD should have some kind of answer and strategy by now. Just say something like:

"We have different contract language with different partners, and not one consistent policy with respect to the balance of specific technologies used. We are currently developing more consistent policy and will communicate that when it's ready".

Then you whip some boiler plate that focuses more on encouraging AMD tech and less on blocking competitor tech, and legitimately allow more freedom to devs. It's not like this would ever be a winning strategy, unless AMD is going to partner with most of the games market.

Then again, ducking forever might work...
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,238
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Agreed, and as I've said before it really is on the vendor who isn't in the consoles to make this as easy as possible. Streamline currently just doesn't seem a truly neutral wrapper so I can't see that becoming universal unless Nvidia change course.

Since DLSS looks better than FSR (less sure about how it stands vs XeSS), Nvidia would actually gain from this. It is just that Streamline has to be 100% neutral, even the slightest hint of hindering FSR or XeSS and this won't work.

Yeah, Streamline is too easy for AMD to ignore because it's NVidia. I keep hoping Microsoft picks it up, because this really should just be a case where it's one API for the Devs, and the GPU makers all implement their own solution, just like it is for Ray Tracing.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
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I find no fault in AMD paying the developer to fix the game at the game level, vs nvidia writing shotty drivers to fix the game at the driver level.

They are both ways to fix the game, but we all know at the end of it... its still going to be a BLOODY MESS when it gets ported to PC, regardless of what gpu your running.

In the end, i can say Nvidia probably writes twice as many drivers then AMD.
But Nvidia also breaks legacy games way more by doing so.
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,110
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In case you haven't noticed, DLSS is in more games than FSR. It's really only in AMD partner games where there is any trend favoring FSR, and those aren't most of the game market.

The future going forward is likely just going to be more games having all the scalers, because really the work to do one is similar to work to just do them all.
Time will tell. Until then, don't expect special treatment.
 

ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
1,120
260
136
Agreed, and as I've said before it really is on the vendor who isn't in the consoles to make this as easy as possible. Streamline currently just doesn't seem a truly neutral wrapper so I can't see that becoming universal unless Nvidia change course.

Since DLSS looks better than FSR (less sure about how it stands vs XeSS), Nvidia would actually gain from this. It is just that Streamline has to be 100% neutral, even the slightest hint of hindering FSR or XeSS and this won't work.
Streamline is an over abstracted trash library and anyone who keeps mentioning it have no idea on software architectures at all ...

If I'm a graphics programmer, I don't want 'multiple features' in one library with entirely unrelated integration requirements in respect to each other. If I'm an actual developer looking to give every platform a "good experience in the most painless way possible" then Streamline doesn't help at all since it doesn't automatically include alternative solutions (FSR/XeSS/etc) and is bloated pile of crap because some of them aren't interested in making use of some of the features like frame generation, denoising, sharpening, or reflex ...
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,238
5,244
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Time will tell. Until then, don't expect special treatment.

If/when I buy a NVidia GPU capable of DLSS, it's not something that I would worry about that at all. This isn't a concern that DLSS is being deprecated, since:
  • More games have DLSS, than FSR.
  • Outside of AMD partnerships, new games with scaling aren't heavily tilting in either direction, with most including both.
  • With a NVidia Card, you can run both scalers anyway.
It's more about watching the AMD super fans tie themselves in knots trying rationalize how AMD isn't doing this, after three weeks of AMD's inability to answer a question, and AMD making this story blow up with it's failure to answer.

If AMD just owned it, the story probably would have died 2 weeks ago.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,110
5,643
126
If/when I buy a NVidia GPU capable of DLSS, it's not something that I would worry about that at all. This isn't a concern that DLSS is being deprecated, since:
  • More games have DLSS, than FSR.
  • Outside of AMD partnerships, new games with scaling aren't heavily tilting in either direction, with most including both.
  • With a NVidia Card, you can run both scalers anyway.
It's more about watching the AMD super fans tie themselves in knots trying rationalize how AMD isn't doing this, after three weeks of AMD's inability to answer a question, and AMD making this story blow up with it's failure to answer.

If AMD just owned it, the story probably would have died 2 weeks ago.
You are the only one Rationalizing anything. We are just pointing out equally valid explanations.
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,238
5,244
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You are the only one Rationalizing anything. We are just pointing out equally valid explanations.

What have I rationalized? I've come to the same conclusion as major tech media players that looked at it.

I've yet to hear any valid explanation of why AMD has been ducking a simple question for weeks.

Something that has been looked at by most the tech media with millions of followers, some like HWUB which are go to sources for GPU reviews, so a core GPU audience, and they have all basically said this is very bad look for AMD.

If there is a different story for AMD to tell than what the media is concluding, why can't they tell it?
 

dr1337

Senior member
May 25, 2020
344
598
106
You know that post, you gave a thumbs up to. Did you not read it, or understand it? It gives you a clue:
What is this line of logic about the like button? Do you think its impossible to find someone agreeable while also still looking at the reality of there is no proof? Or are you just accosting someone for the sake of it?
It's more about watching the AMD super fans tie themselves in knots trying rationalize how AMD isn't doing this, after three weeks of AMD's inability to answer a question, and AMD making this story blow up with it's failure to answer.
Yep, its trolls like you coming to stir the pot saying a bunch of opinions about big corporations that you don't actually believe yourself.
If there is a different story for AMD to tell than what the media is concluding, why can't they tell it?
Why are you pretending to be upset just to get reactions? Literally the same reason, exposure, and its working so well with more people talking about AMD and FSR than ever. Because if you aren't someone paid by Nvidia to distract from the fact FSR runs on GTX cards but DLSS doesn't, then independently you're being quite useful for AMDs supposed guerilla marketing.
 
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Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,238
5,244
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Yep, its trolls like you coming to stir the pot saying a bunch of opinions about big corporations that you don't actually believe yourself.

Really? What I am saying that I don't actually believe?

Why are you pretending to be upset just to get reactions?

Not pretending to be, nor actually upset. Just baffled by AMDs inability to answer a question.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
6,947
7,361
136
Yeah, Streamline is too easy for AMD to ignore because it's NVidia. I keep hoping Microsoft picks it up, because this really should just be a case where it's one API for the Devs, and the GPU makers all implement their own solution, just like it is for Ray Tracing.

-I'm honestly a little surprised we haven't gotten a DX13 with a killer new feature called DXSS which is an XESS style dual path upscaler.

Usually MS watches the GPU makers do the proprietary antics for a few years then swoops in with their "standard".

DX12 is getting kinda long on the tooth and folks aren't rushing to upgrade to Win11... As good a time as any for a new DX edition locked to Win11.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
20,853
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Gah windows 11 is NOT gamer friendly.
Im almost done about calling it the Windows Me of this generation, as i think its even worse then Vista was, and straight along the line of Windows Me as it has simular stability issues that Me brought us.

Can i get a Xbox OS please?
So i dont need to have a failed port on anything?
I think that would be ground breaking for the PC Gamer... or Sony can release there own OS like PlayOS.
I would not mind buying a key for specialized OS's like that.

It wouldn't impact console sales either, as they are pretty cheap.
It would just give you the option of having customized super consoles.
You'd have the fast lane... and even faster lane... and ultra fast lane.
 
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Thunder 57

Platinum Member
Aug 19, 2007
2,722
3,911
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Gah windows 11 is NOT gamer friendly.
Im almost done about calling it the Windows Me of this generation, as i think its even worse then Vista was, and straight along the line of Windows Me as it has simular stability issues that Me brought us.

Can i get a Xbox OS please?
So i dont need to have a failed port on anything?
I think that would be ground breaking for the PC Gamer... or Sony can release there own OS like PlayOS.
I would not mind buying a key for specialized OS's like that.

It wouldn't impact console sales either, as they are pretty cheap.
It would just give you the option of having customized super consoles.
You'd have the fast lane... and even faster lane... and ultra fast lane.

Let's be real, Windows ME was far worse than Vista. Vista sucked for various reasons, the most obvious being the lack of RAM, but at least it was stable.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
20,853
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In the case of multiplayer games, some of them may come with custom OS images you'll have to boot just to play the game, as a form of anticheat. Might still not be enough though.

You can never get rid of the cheaters... This is true.
But i have seen cheats on consoles you can use via the USB though a boot loader.

You could also ban the entire OS key from the network if they get caught, or downright ban the machine ID forcing the cheater to buy a new motherboard entirely everytime they got caught.
 
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