All Florida Counties that used the butterly ballot should re-vote

[KingHam]

I just heard on the radio that a local politician (a state representitive I think) faced a Reform party candidate in a previous election and the Reform party candidate received 2600+ votes. Anyone else hear this?

KingHam

 

[fragarific]

This is soooo historic!! I'm am soooo happy I'm alive during this great and awesome time in American history.

 

[BoberFett]

A re-vote would be a bad thing, IMO. How do they prevent people who didn't vote at all from voting to help one side or the other? Why can't people in other towns or states change their votes?

 

[fragarific]

no.. but thats local, this is the presidency.

 

[JellyBaby]

Well this young pup looked at two online images of the ballot and figured out how to properly vote at first glance. However, i'm looking at a ballot that has every candidate listed properly and the "punch holes" aligned correctly. Obviously, the physical process of voting in many counties in *every* state needs modernizing and at the very least this election may finally lead to improvement therein.

The courts will inevitably decide what to do there in FL. Re-votes aren't unprecedented but I still get a chilling feeling in my gut at even a suggestion of such a thing. My feeling is that if it?s broke, fix it in time for the next usage.

 

[etech]

Chess9, I realize you are under extreme stress since it looks like you will have to grow up and not let the government be your mommy and daddy so I will ignore you lunatic ravings this time.

 

[KingHam]

Hey! Leave the personal insults out of this.

KingHam

 

[chess9]

Etech:

Since I've never received a penny of welfare in my life, or one single food stamp, or been the beneficiary of a single government set aside program, or even an SBA loan, I can tell you unequivocally that I am way overdue for my share of the spoils.

Also, I have probably paid more in taxes than you've ever earned in a year, so I have actual experience paying the big bucks to Uncle Sam, unlike most of you guys who talk like becoming Daddy Warbucks is a soon to be realized reality.

And I did it when Nixon and Reagan were President. Talk about pain.

 

[RyogaHibiki]

Did you guys read the caption under the photo? It said there's only 304 registered Reform party members in Palm Beach county, yet there were 3,407 votes for Buchanan in that county alone. It is SO obvious that those votes were meant for Gore instead. For a race this tight and this important, there HAS to be a re-vote, or the United States will have to live with an improperly elected president for the next four years! The magnitude of this situation is awesome!:Q

 

[BassWriters]

Before I post, three disclaimers
1) I didn't vote, I'm only 17, and if I could I would have voted for Nader, regardless of the state I was in.
2) I'm rooting for Gore at this point because I wouldn't want either party to have control of both the House, Senate, and Presidency.
3) All my information comes from Democrats.com, they're biased, but not making up numbers.

Here's the link: http://democrats.com/display.cfm?id=174

Much has been made over the results in Palm Beach and the butterfly ballot. Here are the numbers for Palm Beach County:

Gore
Palm Beach - 268,945
Broward - 386,518
Dade - 328,702

Bush
Palm Beach - 152,846
Broward - 177,279
Dade - 289,45

Buchanan
Palm Beach - 3,407
Broward - 789
Dade - 561

From the Democrats.com website:
"The statistics below are striking. Even though Palm Beach County is smaller than neighboring Broward and Dade counties, Pat Buchanan received five times more votes in Palm Beach. With a statewide Bush lead of only 1,805 votes, the votes cast for Pat Buchanan by mistake could represent the margin of victory."

There are also reports that up to 20,000 ballots in Palm Beach county were thrown out because of people double voting, presumably voting for Buchanan on accident, then realizing what they did and voting for Gore. I'm skeptical at the size being bandied about, but if this were the case for 500 - 2000 votes I wouldn't be surprised.

I agree that something is wrong with the numbers, but am not familiar with Florida and would like to see someone there who can refute my findings.

-Cameron

 

[chess9]

Ryobietc.:

I'm utterly flabbergasted that 304 people registered as Reform Party members. Where do they live? Under the bridges?

BassWriter:

Nice find. As I said above, this will be a slam dunk for the judge who hears it.

Does anyone know who the Chief Judge is of the Florida Circuit for Palm Beach County? I'll call my lawyer tomorrow and find out if no one knows. If he's a Democrat, the re-vote is a mortal lock. If he's Jewish it's a near mortal lock.

 

[ride525]

There are more reports of voter problems in Florida, with reports of police blocking streets in predominately black areas to "control traffic".

And other reports of police at polling places (predominately black again) intimidating voters....

Wonder if Jesse Jackson is looking into these too...

 

[KingHam]

Awesome magnitude? Take a deep breath. Just because there are only 304 registered Reform party members doesn't mean that there can only be 304 votes for a Reform party. Before we start making judgement on these totals let's see how many people voted for Reform party candidates in past elections.

KingHam

 

[DainBrammage]

Sad thing about mistakes you learn from and quit whining

 

[chess9]

KingHam: True, but the demographics are such that it would be extremely unlikely. It's just one more fact that militates in favor of a re-vote.

By the way, apparently no other counties are involved in Florida. My wife says that I misremember my ballot. I saw one on CNN done in Dade County and I think she's right. I believe mine had all the Prez candies on the left. God I'm getting senile. !!! Anyway, it was a pain to read and align properly. Truly archaic procedure when we have all this available computer expertise in this country.

 

[vi edit]

"Sad thing about mistakes you learn from and quit whining"

Yeh, just look here

 

[chess9]

Uh, oh, time to duck, fire fight, fire fight!!!!!

 

[DABANSHEE]

.

 

[vi edit]

I am still understanding the problem with the "butterfly ballot" as being a "mechanical" error so to speak. From what I've read, the ballots did not line up and they punched the wrong hole.

If this is the case, then it would be the same thing as me failing a Drivers license test because the DMV messed up the answer key. I should be allowed to re-do my test.

But as I said earlier, this is just how myself, and my girlfriend interpreted the reports and the news coverage.

 

[DABANSHEE]

What a stupid design ballot. Whats a ballot doing with punch holes or staples or a fold anyway, the whole concept of having one row of boxes in the middle with a list of candidates on both sides is mad. Whoever dreamed up that ballot form needs his/her head read. Whats wrong with a simple list with a box next to each name all on the same side, where you just tick the box next the bloke you're voting for (or if its a preferntial, you just number them 1 to 9).

 

[KingHam]

<< KingHam: True, but the demographics are such that it would be extremely unlikely. It's just one more fact that militates in favor of a re-vote. >>



I'm not going to argue but, I think that we could use a little bit more infor before we call it a &quot;slam dunk&quot;.

Once again I agree with you about the antiquated voting technigues. Everything would be much easier with an ATM style voting machine.

KingHam

 

[chess9]

ViEdit:

It's really a combination of ballot design and the physical act of lining up the dots. Only an idiot, or a politician, would design such a system in the first place. For older people, a mistake is very easy to make. Women who have spatial problems could easily make the mistake.

But it is looking like the Palm Beach County fiasco is a minor problem compared to the issues being raised by the NAACP. I expect some big news tomorrow and probably a flurry of lawsuits. Florida is going to get tarred and feathered with the race card. Some of it is, unfortunately, justified.

This may be the first Presidential Election won in the courts. Seems appropriate for our increasingly litigious culture. Very sad, but how else can people protect their rights?

 

[Yo Ma Ma]

Is this the very first year the &quot;butterfly ballot&quot; has been used? If not, then why is it only an issue this year?

 

[vi edit]

If that's the case then, even though the ballot design had be pre-viewed by the voters, they still weren't prepared for shoddy equipment.

As King Ham, stated, I would really, really like to see how many people voted for Buchanan in '96.

That, and I would also like to see some form of &quot;unoffical&quot; vote or poll in the county to see how many really intended to vote for him.

 

[chess9]

Guys:

I've got to go to bed. I was up all night last night and have to be bright eyed and bushy tailed tomorrow. My apologies for not lending more to what may remain of this discussion.

Dabanshee:

America has a long and tawdry history of making voting difficult for some groups. The whole process is still almost as cumbersome as it was 200 years ago. Politicians could learn a lot from our techno-savvy members here. They could create an election system with results in 1 minute, or less, after the close of the polling places. All of this is truly too stupid to contemplate.