Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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[igor_kavinski]

Ia this a dealbreaker? How many people use more than 1 external display?

Can't people just have unlimited displays with a USB-C dock?

 

[FlameTail]

Can't people just have unlimited displays with a USB-C dock?

Does the dock have display engine inside it?

 

[igor_kavinski]

Does the dock have display engine inside it?

CHAPGPT says:

Yes, a USB-C dock typically has a display engine inside it, as it is designed to support multiple external displays and provide video output capabilities. This display engine helps to convert the video signal from the connected device to the appropriate format for the external display, allowing for seamless connectivity and display of content.

 

[FlameTail]

CHAPGPT says:

I am not sure if that is correct.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I am not sure if that is correct.

ThinkPad Universal Docking Station USB C

Shop & save on the ThinkPad Universal Dock & hundreds of other popular PC, home, business & gaming accessories at Lenovo today âï¸ Free shipping

www.lenovo.com

Doesn't say anything about host device requirements so there is a 2D display engine in there.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I actually thought about the new Air for a moment as I need a new computer. Then was looking at the MBP. But neither is what I want (a 2n1 fits my use more), but a dedicated tablet and a mini-PC probably would offer better option for my use. Then forgot to even check and rumor is new iPad Pros in the next couple of weeks, likely similar launch to the Air (no event, just announce/launch online).

Rumors sound almost exactly what I want.

OLED displays (a bit iffy in that I'd probably prefer miniLED for brightness outside use and longevity - which OLED can probably get bright enough now but I worry about that maybe hurting longevity and it possibly affecting burn-in).
M3 chips (some rumor said they'd start at 16GB/512GB, which would help explain the rumored price increases - which OLED alone wouldn't)
Change to landscape orientation for front camera/sensors (don't care myself, but honestly wish they'd get it in the bezel so it wouldn't be in the display part at all)
Pencil 3rd gen (supposed to have the...forget what its called but the same tracking the AirTags use)
New keyboard, aluminum and will match the iPad more than the current one. Sure sounds like they're basically turning the iPad Pro into Surface Book (which I've been wanting for years and always thought the Pro lineup should have been), also should enable more than just charging as current keyboard USB-C ports are limited to just that (hoping it'll have a couple of thunderbolt ports and microSD, maybe HDMI)

Here's the one that really gets me though, possibly will be able to run a version of MacOS. Supposedly would be a somewhat stripped down version, which could be iffy, but if it allows loading 3rd party software (like Firefox/other browsers) and file management, it'd be good enough for me. Could be the way Apple looks to appease the EU who wants them to open up to allow non App store software loading. Especially if you can swap between them quickly (which might explain why they'd maybe go to 16GB base memory).

Other rumors are possibly a larger 14" model, and the 12.9" going to 13" (which to me highlights that they're basically turning the iPad Pro into a hybrid 2n1 like the Surface Book). Seems like the 14" might have been ditched (which it would seem they'd need to go bigger to differentiate from the 13"). My experience with tablets is that the 12-13" is the optimal size. 14.5" was a little too much for a tablet and 11" is too small. I had a Surface Book and it was fine when using just the tablet, with the 3:2 ratio being a bit better than 16:9.

Only real downside is supposed to have a fairly significant price increase (last year rumors said as much as $700, but think the more recent ones put it at like $300 higher for the base). But, like how on the iPhone 15 Pro they upped the base storage, they're probably upping the base (which gives more room for the rest of the iPad line and establishes it as more of a pro device). Wouldn't be surprised if the new keyboard is like $499 and new stylus probably $149.

I didn't see anything about waterproof, so guessing that's not on the table. Would've been nice since Samsung offers it on the Tab S9.

 

[mmaenpaa]

ThinkPad Universal Docking Station USB C

Shop & save on the ThinkPad Universal Dock & hundreds of other popular PC, home, business & gaming accessories at Lenovo today âï¸ Free shipping

www.lenovo.com

View attachment 94868
Doesn't say anything about host device requirements so there is a 2D display engine in there.

Many of my customers use 3 monitors.

Usually if dock name has "universal" in it, it can mean that it has it's own display engine (DisplayLink GPU). If it does not number of external monitors depends on capabilities of the laptop GPU. USB-C docks without built in gpu use DP 1.4 Alt mode to transfer graphics to dock and there it will go to external displays. Usually 3 pcs of FHD is easy, 3 pcs of 1440p is much harder. USB4 & TB3/TB4 docks of course have higher bandwidth in their use (still have not seen USB4 dock).

Choosing the right dock & displays is HARD 😁

 

[Doug S]

View attachment 94864

The base M chips only have 2 display engines, meaning that it can only support 2 displays at a time.

Ia this a dealbreaker? How many people use more than 1 external display?

People who want three monitors have no room to bitch when they bought an entry level product.

 

[igor_kavinski]

People who want three monitors have no room to bitch when they bought an entry level product.

Snob

 

[FlameTail]

If Apple M4 comes ~12 months after M3; It will use the same architecture of A18 and same node of A18 (N3E).

If Apple M4 comes ~18 months after M3; then it will use the same architecture as A18 but a better node (N3P).

 

[okoroezenwa]

If Apple M4 comes ~18 months after M3, then it will use the same architecture as A18 but a better node (N3P).

Not really a guarantee. I remember people predicting the M2 chips using N4 and that turned out to be nonsense (hell there were dolts predicting M3 even though that didn't line up at all with TSMC's stated timeline expectations).

 

[dr1337]

People who want three monitors have no room to bitch when they bought an entry level product.

If Intel macs could drive 2 displays while also keeping the laptop screen on, there is literally no excuse in any sense. Saying there is no room for criticism is absurd, Apple literally made their new products worse than old ones...

And objectively its not an entry level product when vastly cheaper windows laptops offer the feature, and have offered it for years past, just like Intel macs did.

 

[FlameTail]

Something unusual about this affair:

The laptop lid has to be physically closed to support two external displays.

Why?

Why not simply turn off the internal display, while keeping the lid open?

This has rhe benefit of being able to use the laptop's keyboard/track pad while using the external monitors.

 

[Doug S]

If Intel macs could drive 2 displays while also keeping the laptop screen on, there is literally no excuse in any sense. Saying there is no room for criticism is absurd, Apple literally made their new products worse than old ones...

And objectively its not an entry level product when vastly cheaper windows laptops offer the feature, and have offered it for years past, just like Intel macs did.

Objectively the market for people who want three displays at ANY price is tiny. The market for people who want a laptop to display its built in display and two independent external displays is even tinier.

This reads like the people touting Samsung's inclusion of an IR blaster in the Galaxy as an "advantage" over Apple. Features that few want tend to get dropped, and only a handful of people missed it when Samsung decided it wasn't worth including in a following model and Apple v Android comparisons had to pick on something else that was supposedly missing.

Intel supported more displays not because that was a thing people wanted, but because they used the same die for a fairly wide product range. I would not be shocked if the new chiplet based lineup no longer supports three displays in the lower end (i3 class) products.

 

[poke01]

If Intel macs could drive 2 displays while also keeping the laptop screen on, there is literally no excuse in any sense. Saying there is no room for criticism is absurd, Apple literally made their new products worse than old ones...

And objectively its not an entry level product when vastly cheaper windows laptops offer the feature, and have offered it for years past, just like Intel macs did.

I don’t even get why they have huge display controllers. If it’s for efficiency ie power savings and battery life then most people are plugged into power outlet when using external monitors.

It’s bad design and an excuse to limit the number of monitors to higher tiers of SoCs

 

[FlameTail]

Apple focuses on quality, not quantity.

Apple's display controllers are much more efficient than Intel's.

So even though Apple can drive fewer monitors, they drive it really well.

 

[Eug]

I was in a coffee shop the other day, and saw the weirdest thing. It was a laptop, with another equally sized screen clamped to the top of the laptop screen. At first I wondered if it was a hinged fold out second screen, but then I saw the clamps, and saw it was plugged in via USB.

It makes me wonder how many screens he uses at home, if he's using this odd dual-screen contraption in a Tim Hortons.

But yeah, the triple screen market is very, very small, and I suspect most of those people would be willing to pay a bit more for a MacBook Pro (or Mac mini Pro or Mac Studio) over a MacBook Air (or Mac mini).

Anyhow, to my pleasant surprise, they are updating the M3 14" MacBook Pro to support dual external screens too. Before the release of the M3 MacBook Air, it only supported a single external screen.

M3

• Simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display at 1 billion colors and:
• One external display with up to 6K resolution at 60Hz

I wonder why they didn't support dual external screens in the first place.

 

[igor_kavinski]

MacBook Air (2024) review: M3 updates come to 13 and 15-inch laptops

Now with M3 and support for two external monitors!

www.tomshardware.com

TLDR: Get the 15 inch M3 MBA if you can afford it. Higher performance and better sounding speakers.

 

[SpudLobby]

I don’t even get why they have huge display controllers. If it’s for efficiency ie power savings and battery life then most people are plugged into power outlet when using external monitors.

It’s bad design and an excuse to limit the number of monitors to higher tiers of SoCs

The display controller is used for the internal display as well, so modest improvements in efficiency at idle or under load probably make a subtle but important difference to package power. Sure they could do a larger efficient and two smaller inefficient marginal controllers for external monitors but that’s more development cost for little gain in the target market I suspect.

 

[SpudLobby]

Objectively the market for people who want three displays at ANY price is tiny. The market for people who want a laptop to display its built in display and two independent external displays is even tinier.

This reads like the people touting Samsung's inclusion of an IR blaster in the Galaxy as an "advantage" over Apple. Features that few want tend to get dropped, and only a handful of people missed it when Samsung decided it wasn't worth including in a following model and Apple v Android comparisons had to pick on something else that was supposedly missing.

Intel supported more displays not because that was a thing people wanted, but because they used the same die for a fairly wide product range. I would not be shocked if the new chiplet based lineup no longer supports three displays in the lower end (i3 class) products.

Exactly right.

 

[FlameTail]

The display controller is used for the internal display as well, so modest improvements in efficiency at idle or under load probably make a subtle but important difference to package power. Sure they could do a larger efficient and two smaller inefficient marginal controllers for external monitors but that’s more development cost for little gain in the target market I suspect.

I am interested to see if Qualcomm also spends a ton of transistors to make the display controllers efficient.

 

[dr1337]

Apple's display controllers are much more efficient than Intel's.

Do you have any proof regarding this? Because I would assume 3 smaller controllers will consume less power on average than 2 bigger ones (apple can push more pixels than intel silicon). Especially while the laptop is in portable mode with just the one main controller output turned on.

This reads like the people touting Samsung's inclusion of an IR blaster in the Galaxy as an "advantage" over Apple. Features that few want tend to get dropped, and only a handful of people missed it when Samsung decided it wasn't worth including in a following model and Apple v Android comparisons had to pick on something else that was supposedly missing.

Really it's more like apple removing the headphone jack in the iphone 7 while lying that it couldn't fit, even though people have literally modded it back into the thing. Apple limited their base chips entirely for the sake of saving a tiny bit of money and for the ability to push higher margins on bigger dies. But Apple ships the M3 in the $1999 14" Macbook Pro, doesn't sound like some entry level device to me. Another limitation of these cut down devices is that they only have two USB ports, kinda bad specs for a professional grade workstation laptop.

Its even a problem in Apples other devices, for instance the $3500 vision pro has all of its display controllers taken up by the headset, and as such it can't directly do mirroring but instead does it virtually through screen capturing. Surely that takes up extra power. And also interesting that they can't just invent virtual outputs for the Mac so that people can use their macbook pro with dual monitors and also keep the lid open.

Customers always having to dance around tiny compatibility issues like these are why Apple won't crack 20% marketshare despite how good their CPU arch is. Its not like we're talking about the M1 anymore, this is the M3 now. They absolutely have transistors to spare for supporting basic QOL features. The only reason they aren't there is entirely for increasing prices and taking more money from the consumer.

I actually kinda hope they branch out with M4 series, a slightly smaller die makes more sense for the macbook air and ipad, especially if they could pair it with a price drop. 2P + 4E with a 6 controller memory bus sporting 12GB ram at the entry level. Something like an A18 pro but actually with enough bandwidth for bigger tasks. Then the 4P + 4E chip could be more fully featured, starting at 16GB, and wouldn't have to cut back on display controllers just to save a penny or two.

 

[reggie_fils_aime]

The answer for the display issue is simple; apple wants you to buy more than one Mac, lol. Can't let someone have TOO much productivity on a single machine, think of the bottom line! That said, I'll probably upgrade my M1 mini when the m3 models get dropped, maybe sometime next decade.

 

[Mopetar]

Don't they make a mini with a Pro chip in it that could support more than two displays?

The capability is there for the people who presumably need it enough to pay for it.

I think the argument is a bit silly as why stop at three displays. Shouldn't I be able to run four, five, or even six displays from my entry-level MacBook Air? Surely this was as God and Jobs intended it to be!

 

[SpudLobby]

I am interested to see if Qualcomm also spends a ton of transistors to make the display controllers efficient.

I doubt it.

I think maybe more than like Intel and AMD is quite possible, but I think they’ll go for a medium point on efficiency. They can’t make it too sloppy and hurt idle or low power consumption meaningfully, or to the point where it causes fans to spin up like I’ve heard can happen wrt Intel, but I don’t think they’ll go balls to the wall.

It supports up to 3 4K displays, so lots of power, and while it’s possible they went all out on efficiency and output too and spent the area, and saved area elsewhere to do so, I think most likely they were somewhat conservative and wanted to make sure they didn’t send office users elsewhere on edge cases.

But that said, the question is: will it actually tangibly hurt battery life if they didn’t go all out like Apple did? Qualcomm probably still knows a thing or do about power consumption of display controllers from phones, and moreover they have enough value add elsewhere to where I expect the SD X Elite as a platform will still be head and shoulders above Phoenix, MTL, Arrow Lake, Strix Point and to a lesser degree Lunar Lake too on low power consumption and battery life.