Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[gdansk]

Sorry, but I don't see any lack of model availability here. Unless the complaint is that MTL isn't available in low to mid tier designs? Which is certainly true, but that's just a case of flawed expectations.

155H has been available in HP Pavilion Plus and Acer Swift both of which have been low to mid tier pricing. It's less common in that market but still not absent.

 

[Abwx]

Over 200+ configs in EU alone.

Notebooks mit CPU-Familie Intel: Core Ultra 5/Core Ultra 7/Core Ultra 9 Preisvergleich Geizhals EU

Preisvergleich und Bewertungen für Notebooks mit CPU-Familie Intel: Core Ultra 5/Core Ultra 7/Core Ultra 9

geizhals.eu

It's even available in a third world country like mine.

Hardly a paper launch, unlike the competition in the Windows notebook space.

It s not the configs wich are accounted, it s the number of offers, if 5 sellers sell the same product it s accounted as 5 offers, guess that you ll have to understand how Geizhals work.

For instance here the offerings of Dell laptops, you can see that the same laptop can be sold by several sellers, so much for your 200+ configs, or should i say 200+ mistakes of yours.

Notebooks mit Hersteller: Dell, CPU-Familie Intel: Core Ultra 5/Core Ultra 7/Core Ultra 9 Preisvergleich Geizhals EU

Preisvergleich und Bewertungen für Notebooks mit Hersteller: Dell, CPU-Familie Intel: Core Ultra 5/Core Ultra 7/Core Ultra 9

geizhals.eu

 

[SpudLobby]

iGPU is recycled from MTL, as is SOC tile and the rest of the setup.

Idk how many times I say this, and you just ignore it, but again, it's literally only MLID who expects a high performance uplift. Literally everyone else, Xino, Raichu, etc etc all say the perf uplift is gonna be ~10% over RPL.

That's such an over reaction lol.

Who said it was low volume?

That market has been there for a while, Intel has just been a very bad participant in it. Apple is much better at that.

Took the words out of my mouth for the most part.

 

[mikk]

It s not the configs wich are accounted, it s the number of offers, if 5 sellers sell the same product it s accounted as 5 offers, guess that you ll have to understand how Geizhals work.

Nonsense! You have to check out how geizhals works because you have zero clue. Simple check for you with Hawk Point: https://geizhals.de/?cat=nb&xf=9690...l&hloc=at&hloc=de&plz=&dist=&sort=p&bl1_id=30

5 configurations but 23 offers from sellers.

By the way igorslab posted something about Lunar Lake: https://www.igorslab.de/en/news-fro...e-cpu-rumors-confirmed-picture-and-schematic/

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

That market has been there for a while, Intel has just been a very bad participant in it. Apple is much better at that.

I still maintain that Intel bowing out of the Intel Y series was one of their dumbest moves. 5W/7W TDP SoCs with excellent uncore power and sipping power while using the best in class Core designs. It was a perfect demonstration of low power x86 enabling novel form factors with excellent battery life and tried and tested x86 compatibility. And and Intel could have kept iterating on it over the years and have a stable line of powerful low power SoCs to rival the M series from the start.

But alas, their greed made it so that Core M/Y was almost as expensive as the U series. And instead of rectifying the prices, they instead dropped the line. A plainly stupid move! And now they came back crawling to low power designs with a much more expensive to manufacture and using external manufacturing (Sans for the passive tile) Lunar Lake.

 

[dullard]

It's both amusing and sad that Meteor Lake is being claimed a paper launch/limited capacity when it's been available for purchase since launch. Granted model availability was limited for the first 1-2 months, but so what?

Like most laptop chips, Meteor Lake chips just aren't available to end users on day 1. They almost never are, unless they are a drop-in replacement for a previous chip. Laptops need to be optimized for the different shapes, sizes, thicknesses, power usage, and especially cooling requirements of new chips. Meteor Lake being a major change is no exception to that rule. Plenty of Meteor Lake laptops are available for anyone who wants one. For that reason, Meteor Lake as a whole is definitely not a paper launch.

That said, some tiers of Meteor Lake chips have been paper launched. All we really have now are the middle tier Meteor Lake chips. Only the lowest i7 is readily available: the higher i7 and i9s chips are rarely seen. Select a laptop with the 185H on top laptop manufacturers and you get a ship date weeks or even a month+ out.

So all the Meteor Lake reviews that I've read are only using middling Meteor Lake chips.

 

[jpiniero]

That said, some tiers of Meteor Lake chips have been paper launched. All we really have now are the middle tier Meteor Lake chips. Only the lowest i7 is readily available: the higher i7 and i9s chips are rarely seen. Select a laptop with the 185H on top laptop manufacturers and you get a ship date weeks or even a month+ out.

Dell has a couple more Meteor Lake laptops showing now, including a couple U parts.

They do not ship until the end of April though. And yes still starts at a grand.

 

[igor_kavinski]

And yes still starts at a grand.

Next year will be $499 with the Lunar Lake laptops commanding prices from $999 to $2499.

 

[DavidC1]

And now they came back crawling to low power designs with a much more expensive to manufacture and using external manufacturing (Sans for the passive tile) Lunar Lake.

Intel has been a reactive company for decades, as opposed to being a leader in their golden days.

Celeron was a reaction to Via, Pentium M was for Transmeta, and Core 2 was Athlon.

If it wasn't for the courts always handing wins to Intel(such as with Nvidia x86 patent fiasco), then the x86 market would have had serious upheaval and Intel may have fallen lower many years ago. Transmeta for example developed a rather decent chip for it's power class despite needing a translator to run x86 and thus incurred substantial performance penalties.

Of course the courts handed Intel a win again since Denver translated too but was barred from using it. The "too-big-to-fail" idea extended to semi markets.

Nvidia regularly puts out reticle-limit chips, and faltered against competition far far less, still run by not only an engineer as a CEO, but a founder nonetheless! The employee satisfaction for the company is strikingly high, almost highest in the industry, as opposed to Intel. Hmm, it can't be that Intel had to defend legally against Denver considering how Nvidia would have been a very formidable competitor can it? Nope, that's exactly it.

It is a fact of life those in positions of significant power use legal means to win over otherwise eventually unfavorable conditions if it was purely due to merit. Maybe if there was true competition, there would have been far nimbler competitors that would have truly challenged the "Wintel" hegemony.

Imagine the speed of ARM chips in development pace but they were x86.

 

[dullard]

Dell has a couple more Meteor Lake laptops showing now, including a couple U parts.

They do not ship until the end of April though. And yes still starts at a grand.

Yes that is what I was talking about. Dell, HP, etc. Most let you customize one with the the 185H, but Dell is mid April and HP is end of April.

If cost is a big deal, the 165H is faster turbo and cheaper list price than the 155H, but even the 165H is hard to find anywhere to actually get in your hands today. Similarly, the 165U is faster turbo and cheaper list price than the 155U. If cost is an even bigger deal, there are no i3 versions announced at all. But that wouldn't count as a paper launch if they don't even exist and were never launched.

 

[jpiniero]

Similarly, the 165U is faster turbo and cheaper list price than the 155U.

Dunno about that. Maybe you mean the 155H?

The Latitude 7650's base is surprisingly the 135U. Offers both U and H as options... the 135H is only $59 more (for a $2k base laptop) but it goes up from there. The 155U is $109 more and the 165U/H is $200+ more.

 

[dullard]

Dunno about that. Maybe you mean the 155H?

165U, 4.9 GHz turbo P core, 2.0 GHz GPU, recommended price: $448.

Intel® Core™ Ultra 7 processor 165U (12M Cache, up to 4.90 GHz) Product Specifications

Intel® Core™ Ultra 7 processor 165U (12M Cache, up to 4.90 GHz) quick reference guide including specifications, features, pricing, compatibility, design documentation, ordering codes, spec codes and more.

ark.intel.com

155U, 4.8 GHz turbo P core, 1.95 GHz GPU, recommended price: $490.

Intel® Core™ Ultra 7 processor 155U (12M Cache, up to 4.80 GHz) Product Specifications

Intel® Core™ Ultra 7 processor 155U (12M Cache, up to 4.80 GHz) quick reference guide including specifications, features, pricing, compatibility, design documentation, ordering codes, spec codes and more.

ark.intel.com

The 165U is faster turbo and cheaper recommended price than the 155U. Same is true with the 165H vs 155H comparison. Faster and cheaper. Now, the laptop manufacturer might not pass that savings onto you if that is what you are talking about.

 

[jpiniero]

165U, 4.9 GHz turbo P core, 2.0 GHz GPU, recommended price: $448.

Intel® Core™ Ultra 7 processor 165U (12M Cache, up to 4.90 GHz) Product Specifications

Intel® Core™ Ultra 7 processor 165U (12M Cache, up to 4.90 GHz) quick reference guide including specifications, features, pricing, compatibility, design documentation, ordering codes, spec codes and more.

ark.intel.com

155U, 4.8 GHz turbo P core, 1.95 GHz GPU, recommended price: $490.

Intel® Core™ Ultra 7 processor 155U (12M Cache, up to 4.80 GHz) Product Specifications

Intel® Core™ Ultra 7 processor 155U (12M Cache, up to 4.80 GHz) quick reference guide including specifications, features, pricing, compatibility, design documentation, ordering codes, spec codes and more.

ark.intel.com

Probably a typo. It happens.

 

[dullard]

Probably a typo. It happens.

If it is a typo, then it was made twice with completely different numbers. Here is the 165H at $460 and the 155H at $503.

Intel® Core™ Ultra 7 processor 165H (24M Cache, up to 5.00 GHz) Product Specifications

Intel® Core™ Ultra 7 processor 165H (24M Cache, up to 5.00 GHz) quick reference guide including specifications, features, pricing, compatibility, design documentation, ordering codes, spec codes and more.

ark.intel.com

Intel® Core™ Ultra 7 processor 155H (24M Cache, up to 4.80 GHz) Product Specifications

Intel® Core™ Ultra 7 processor 155H (24M Cache, up to 4.80 GHz) quick reference guide including specifications, features, pricing, compatibility, design documentation, ordering codes, spec codes and more.

ark.intel.com

 

[igor_kavinski]

If it is a typo, then it was made twice with completely different numbers. Here is the 165H at $460 and the 155H at $503.

Makes sense. The slower chips would be less leaky so they would be better for thinner, lighter laptops. OEM trying to save money with the other chip would need a bigger battery to get the same amount of battery time as the expensive SKU.



165H also has vPro Enterprise so maybe it is expected to sell in higher volume and they make more profit on it that way despite lower price.

 

[Abwx]

Nonsense! You have to check out how geizhals works because you have zero clue. Simple check for you with Hawk Point: https://geizhals.de/?cat=nb&xf=9690...l&hloc=at&hloc=de&plz=&dist=&sort=p&bl1_id=30

5 configurations but 23 offers from sellers.

By the way igorslab posted something about Lunar Lake: https://www.igorslab.de/en/news-fro...e-cpu-rumors-confirmed-picture-and-schematic/

You have a comprehension problem, i stated that if a same laptop is sold by 5 sellers it will appear as an offer, wich is not 5 configs as stated by the member i was answering to, so you are just cluless of what it is about.


READ again what i wrote :

It s not the configs wich are accounted, it s the number of offers, if 5 sellers sell the same product it s accounted as 5 offers, guess that you ll have to understand how Geizhals work.

So basically you are repeating exactly what i said but saying that it s non sense, guess that you really have a problem.

 

[dullard]

Makes sense. The slower chips would be less leaky so they would be better for thinner, lighter laptops. OEM trying to save money with the other chip would need a bigger battery to get the same amount of battery time as the expensive SKU.

But if the turbo power is the same and the base power is manufacturer adjusted, that doesn't make sense to me.

I personally think Intel wanted to limit demand (due to their limited supply) with higher pricing for first adopters.

 

[igor_kavinski]

But if the turbo power is the same and the base power is manufacturer adjusted, that doesn't make sense to me.

Someone here said that silicon able to boost higher is by nature leakier.

 

[SiliconFly]

...Meteor Lake as a whole is definitely not a paper launch.

That said, some tiers of Meteor Lake chips have been paper launched.

Who said anything about a paper launch? MTL was definitely not a paper launch. They supplied enough to ensure it wasn't a paper launch. But after that, the supply was non-existent. 200 different designs from 100 different vendors should have reached the market by now; but it didn't. Thats why I called it a failed launch. Or more accurately a troubled launch. I like Intel, but facts are facts.

And for those who had worries about ARL & RPL launch numbers. ARL had good number after launch & RPL had mind-numbing amazing numbers after launch. Not so much with MTL.

 

[igor_kavinski]

And for those who had worries about ARL & RPL launch numbers. ARL had good number after launch...

ADL you mean.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Thats why I called it a failed launch. Or more accurately a troubled launch. I like Intel, but facts are facts.

One reason could be that they are waiting for the existing stock of premium RPL laptops to sell out before they can flood the market with new laptops. Otherwise, they will have to sell the RPL laptops at a loss because they are not "Ultra" laptops.

 

[Hulk]

Someone here said that silicon able to boost higher is by nature leakier.

Increased gate pitch moves transistors farther apart, forcing a lower current density. This allows for higher leakage transistors, meaning higher peak power and higher frequency at the expense of die area and idle power.

Anand said (wrote) it first in the Coffee Lake review.

 

[Khato]

And for those who had worries about ARL & RPL launch numbers. ARL had good number after launch & RPL had mind-numbing amazing numbers after launch. Not so much with MTL.

What exactly is this assumption based on? I will agree that RPL adoption was faster than ADL, but that's because it was a drop in replacement. MTL adoption curve is pretty much the same as any new design. At this point MTL is available in multiple models from every major player. And the launch models have been available for purchase since launch - they didn't just have a hand full of units that sold out.

 

[dullard]

Who said anything about a paper launch? MTL was definitely not a paper launch.

This is what brought me into the discussion (emphasis mine):

Okay, 3 months out from MTL's "launch" and I'm not seeing them in any quantity.

Paper launch?

 

[Hulk]

This is what brought me into the discussion (emphasis mine):

Yup, that was me. Not trying to stir things up, just finding it harder to find MTL at my usual shopping spots than I would have thought. BJ's, Costco, Best Buy, etc... Still mainly RPL out there.

Maybe it's just me but Intel got me hyped on the amazing efficiency, performance, and NPU on MTL, making all previous designs immediately out-dated. Seems like RPL is just fine after all.