Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[jpiniero]

And the launch models have been available for purchase since launch - they didn't just have a hand full of units that sold out.

Volume is obviously not very high. Once you get over a thousand bucks, that's pretty much Apple territory.

Raptor is going to be the bulk of Intel volume in 2024 and seemingly 2025 too.

 

[igor_kavinski]

The current pinnacle of a Core Ultra 9 device? https://me-en.store.asus.com/rog/ux8406-ae-cnf.html

Check out the photos in the gallery on the left. Interesting stuff but can't really find a use for most of them in my life.

 

[FlameTail]

Lunar Lake MX

Ooh- the on-package memory

 

[mikk]

On nbd.ltd there are PTL-P and PTL-UH entries, seems like Panther Lake is a full mobile lineup and not just build for LNL-MX successor.

 

[SiliconFly]

Why does this say Lunar Lake is on 18A?

Intel Lunar Lake CPU with 8 Cores on 18A Node Spotted: 512 Core GPU Based on Battlemage | Hardware Times

Intel’s upcoming Lunar Lake processors have shown up in the SiSoft database. Powering a future variant of the Samsung Galaxy Book 5 Pro, they will succeed the Core Ultra “Meteor Lake” CPUs in the premium segment. This sample features 8 cores, including 4P and 4E cores, based on the Lion Cove and...

www.hardwaretimes.com

Leaks suggested LNL is N3B exclusive!

 

[Hitman928]

Why does this say Lunar Lake is on 18A?

Intel Lunar Lake CPU with 8 Cores on 18A Node Spotted: 512 Core GPU Based on Battlemage | Hardware Times

Intel’s upcoming Lunar Lake processors have shown up in the SiSoft database. Powering a future variant of the Samsung Galaxy Book 5 Pro, they will succeed the Core Ultra “Meteor Lake” CPUs in the premium segment. This sample features 8 cores, including 4P and 4E cores, based on the Lion Cove and...

www.hardwaretimes.com

Leaks suggested LNL is N3B exclusive!

Because that's the assumption made by the author of the article . . .

 

[FlameTail]

On nbd.ltd there are PTL-P and PTL-UH entries, seems like Panther Lake is a full mobile lineup and not just build for LNL-MX successor.

Yeah, Panther Lake is in the same vein as Tiger Lake or Meteor Lake.

Idk why some people think it's a Lunar Lake successor.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

I'm guessing this is the "flood the channel" SKU for cheap laptops based on Meteor Lake, not unlike how i3 1215U was for ADL.

But 2P + 4E is basically gutting an entire E core cluster. And the GPU tile (Which is already very small at 64EU on N5) is also gutted to 48 EUs.

So it make wonder if it's truly a cheap SKU that Intel plan to mass manufacture to dominate the lower tier price bracket or if it's just something they did to take advantage of faulty tiles and won't be widely available.


https://videocardz.com/newz/the-slowest-meteor-lake-spotted-intel-core-ultra-5-115u-with-8-cores

 

[hemedans]

I'm guessing this is the "flood the channel" SKU for cheap laptops based on Meteor Lake, not unlike how i3 1215U was for ADL.

But 2P + 4E is basically gutting an entire E core cluster. And the GPU tile (Which is already very small at 64EU on N5) is also gutted to 48 EUs.

So it make wonder if it's truly a cheap SKU that Intel plan to mass manufacture to dominate the lower tier price bracket or if it's just something they did to take advantage of faulty tiles and won't be widely available.


https://videocardz.com/newz/the-slowest-meteor-lake-spotted-intel-core-ultra-5-115u-with-8-cores

If they price is same as 1215U then it's welcome addition, any idea how 48EU in MTL will perform compare to 64EU in ADL?

 

[uzzi38]

On nbd.ltd there are PTL-P and PTL-UH entries, seems like Panther Lake is a full mobile lineup and not just build for LNL-MX successor.

Panther Lake was supposed to be fully across the stack, until it wasn't.

Yay for Arrow Lake Refresh, I guess?

 

[jpiniero]

I'm guessing this is the "flood the channel" SKU for cheap laptops based on Meteor Lake, not unlike how i3 1215U was for ADL.

Given that it's branded 5, probably not that cheap.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

If they price is same as 1215U then it's welcome addition, any idea how 48EU in MTL will perform compare to 64EU in ADL?

I don't think we have data on the MTL 64 EU GFX performance yet (Unless I missed something), so hard to guess. Considering Intel said there's a 2x improvement from Xe LP to Xe LPG, I guess it will perform close to an 96 EU Iris Xe? But with improved performance in modern games.

Given that it's branded 5, probably not that cheap.

Good call! Being branded Core Ultra 5, sporting both Ultra and 5 name mean there's probably some premium value. But it's such a harvested SKU that I think we might be seeing it in value laptops by the end of the year. Unless this is just a small production special SKU to take advantage of binned tiles.

Panther Lake was supposed to be fully across the stack, until it wasn't.

Yay for Arrow Lake Refresh, I guess?

Oof. So it's ARL this year, ARL-R next year and NVL in late 26? That's just sad from Intel.

 

[jpiniero]

Good call! Being branded Core Ultra 5, sporting both Ultra and 5 name mean there's probably some premium value. But it's such a harvested SKU that I think we might be seeing it in value laptops by the end of the year. Unless this is just a small production special SKU to take advantage of binned tiles.

It's the only SKU so far that has any busted E cores. So that alone should make there be a decent amount of salvage.

There gets a point where it may not make much sense versus the Core Not Ultra products... esp given that 10 nm is a lot cheaper.

 

[mikk]

Oof. So it's ARL this year, ARL-R next year and NVL in late 26? That's just sad from Intel.

For desktop yes seems like there will be a refresh of ARL-S with possibly 8+32 cores. For mobile-UPH there is Panther Lake next year or early 2026.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Intel Core Ultra "Meteor Lake" Yields Faster Performance With Linux 6.9 - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

Not bad. Gotta be some scheduling related improvements that are helping to distribute the workload uniformly across the three different core types.

 

[SiliconFly]

...to distribute the workload uniformly across the three different core types.

Just need a bit more clarity. Initial leaks said Lunar Lake has 4 P cores & 4 LPE cores. Then I remember reading some articles that (incorrectly?) said LNL has 4 P cores & 4 E cores. Recently I came across an article that says LNL has 4 P cores, 2 E cores & 2 LPE cores.

Any thoughts?

 

[DavidC1]

Just need a bit more clarity. Initial leaks said Lunar Lake has 4 P cores & 4 LPE cores. Then I remember reading some articles that (incorrectly?) said LNL has 4 P cores & 4 E cores. Recently I came across an article that says LNL has 4 P cores, 2 E cores & 2 LPE cores.

Any thoughts?

The Intel leak is clear that there are only two core types.

Someone here said that silicon able to boost higher is by nature leakier.

Yes, that's why the -H chips always needed less voltage to clock the same as the -U parts for example. The design knobs doesn't just exist for processes, but silicon and design, and even binning.

Process: High VT vs Low VT. Latter is high performance, former is low leakage

Design: P vs E. The E requires higher voltage at the same clocks

Binning: -H vs -U

The -H chips need high clocks without stratospheric clocks and voltage, and the higher leakage matters lot less because it's paired with dGPUs and massive screens anyway.

The -Us need low leakage because battery life during instances of idle and low usage is significantly influenced by how much silicon leakage is there.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

Just need a bit more clarity. Initial leaks said Lunar Lake has 4 P cores & 4 LPE cores. Then I remember reading some articles that (incorrectly?) said LNL has 4 P cores & 4 E cores. Recently I came across an article that says LNL has 4 P cores, 2 E cores & 2 LPE cores.

Any thoughts?

The slides that Yuuki_N shared and Geddagod archived shows that LNL will have 4 P Cores and 4 Skymont E Cores, all in the same CPU + GPU SoC tile. The IO tile in LNL makes no mention of LPE cores. And the leaked Windows Manager screenshot of a LNL platform device showed it with 8C/8T rather than 8C/10T.

So I think it's fair to assume the LPE cores were discarded for projects after MTL and ARL (Which reuses MTL tiles, sans for CPU and GFX) and will be a thing of the past for the future products. Unless the TGL/MTL team, who supposedly are making PTL, introduce it again.

For what's worth, I think Exist50 alluded to this scenario in the past. That LPE cores were a MTL addition that increased complexity and future tiled designs from Intel, specially LNL, looked into what MTL did wrong to take the learning and improve upon.

 

[SiliconFly]

The slides that Yuuki_N shared and Geddagod archived shows that LNL will have 4 P Cores and 4 Skymont E Cores, all in the same CPU + GPU SoC tile. The IO tile in LNL makes no mention of LPE cores. And the leaked Windows Manager screenshot of a LNL platform device showed it with 8C/8T rather than 8C/10T.

So I think it's fair to assume the LPE cores were discarded for projects after MTL and ARL (Which reuses MTL tiles, sans for CPU and GFX) and will be a thing of the past for the future products. Unless the TGL/MTL team, who supposedly are making PTL, introduce it again.

For what's worth, I think Exist50 alluded to this scenario in the past. That LPE cores were a MTL addition that increased complexity and future tiled designs from Intel, specially LNL, looked into what MTL did wrong to take the learning and improve upon.

Of course, no LPE cores on SoC or IO tiles.

This is one of the initial leaked slide which clearly says LNL has 4 LPE cores instead of the 4 regular E cores. What are we missing?

https://i.extremetech.com/imagery/content-types/06gzKbYJvjrq7H4OFNWdxZq/images-2.fill.size_670x366.v1700500953.jpg

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

Of course, no LPE cores on SoC or IO tiles.

This is one of the initial leaked slide which clearly says LNL has 4 LPE cores instead of the 4 regular E cores. What are we missing?

https://i.extremetech.com/imagery/content-types/06gzKbYJvjrq7H4OFNWdxZq/images-2.fill.size_670x366.v1700500953.jpg

I think what the slide mean is that the 4 E Core cluster is optimized for low power scenarios rather than they being LPE cores as we know from MTL.

But if Intel actually means 4P cores to handle main worload and the E cores are actually replacing the LPE Cores workload scenario (Idling, watching video, reading text, etc), then It's actually very interesting.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Lunar Lake has 4 P cores & 4 LPE cores

That's what the leaked slides clearly show.

 

[mikk]

They are separated from the P-cores ringbus, it's a separate cluster it seems. In that sense it's a low power version of the E-cores. Sure they are even more power optimized than Crestmont. But this won't mean they are disabled under load. With only 4 P cores LNL needs the power of the 4 Skymont cores. Bionic_Squash suggests LNL 17W runs 50% faster in Cinebench R23 than MTL-U which has 2+8 cores, I don't think this is realistic with only 4 P-cores.

 

[SiliconFly]

...Bionic_Squash suggests LNL 17W runs 50% faster in Cinebench ... ...I don't think this is realistic with only 4 P-cores.

Why not? LNC might be that good!

 

[DavidC1]

Why not? LNC might be that good!

Or Lion Cove is mediocre and Lunarlake implementation is what makes it decent. Also, TSMC's N3 is likely quite a bit better compared to low-volume Intel 4 especially at lower power envelopes. It is likely not a coincidence even Intel admits they will be behind with 20A and won't get ahead until 18A. So 18A is relatively quite a bit better than 20A. Conversely it can also mean 20A is not as good as people are expecting.

Core is just one ingredient in a complex recipe called the SoC.

With only 4 P cores LNL needs the power of the 4 Skymont cores. Bionic_Squash suggests LNL 17W runs 50% faster in Cinebench R23 than MTL-U which has 2+8 cores, I don't think this is realistic with only 4 P-cores.

Not at all. Meteorlake supposedly gets a significant improvement just changing the firmware! That's just sad. Now take a new process from a company used to fabbing smartphone processors, and a brand new SoC design.

The comparison with AMD shows Meteorlake is terrible at that low power envelope. Terrible.

 

[mikk]

Not at all. Meteorlake supposedly gets a significant improvement just changing the firmware! That's just sad. Now take a new process from a company used to fabbing smartphone processors, and a brand new SoC design.

The comparison with AMD shows Meteorlake is terrible at that low power envelope. Terrible.

Now disable 4 cores from AMD and see what happens. With only 4 LNC cores without SMT 50% faster than 2+8 MTL-U? That's 4 threads vs 12 threads! +50% is basically MTL-H 6+8 40-50W level in Cinebench. I say no chance. What LNC IPC increase do they need to make this happen, something like 50%? Why would Intel waste 4 Skymont cores on the same tile and same N3B? Makes no sense to me.