Poll: Do you care about ray tracing / upscaling?

Page 12 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
6,221
12,013
136
The 3.1 image has almost COMPLETE loss of detail where no one in the crowd is distinctly visible.
I usually try to maintain some amount of decorum online, but this time there's no going around it: their example files are garbage. Look again at the 3.1 temporal stability file, the entire frame is blurry, not just the crowd.

There's nothing of substance we can learn from these GIFs, good or bad. All we can do is wonder at the might of AMD marketing, because these poor quality images will be used by all media outlets and YT channels to announce FSR 3.1
 
Last edited:

Aapje

Golden Member
Mar 21, 2022
1,395
1,885
106
I don't really care about the marketing pictures, especially since upscaling quality can differ so much per game and static pictures only go so far. I want independent reviewers to look at a bunch of 3.1 games.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
6,852
7,230
136
Wonder if 3.1 will be a simple file swap for older games or if it will require a ton of dev effort.

Would like to see older games like Hogwarts and Jedi Survivor etc get the tech.

Clearly the Ratchet and Crank devs have implemented it but I wonder how much effort goes into it.
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,228
5,228
136
Wonder if 3.1 will be a simple file swap for older games or if it will require a ton of dev effort.

Would like to see older games like Hogwarts and Jedi Survivor etc get the tech.

Clearly the Ratchet and Crank devs have implemented it but I wonder how much effort goes into it.

I think it will be fairly easy to update for Devs, but unfortunately AMD FSR is compiled into the game EXE so much for difficult for end users if the Devs don't bother.

AMD is talking about future proofing with this one and it being trivial to update going forward after this, so I'm betting they are going to move to a DLL model like NVidia uses, so for post 3.1, end user could just grab the new DLL and the game devs don't have to do anything.
 

Mahboi

Senior member
Apr 4, 2024
342
579
91
No RT, yes US.
The problem with RT is that it is a debatable tradeoff by every metric.
It's not just "framerate vs image quality", it's so much more than that. RT adds a layer of extra complexity to the lighting and design that absolutely breaks the mood and design of scenes in many cases. If you're going to give me more powerful shadows, or realistic lighting, mirroring, or ambient lighting RT effects, good. If you're going to give me that, and there are scenes, particularly in closed environments, where the artists painstakingly tried to set a certain mood, etch out visual details, bring forth certain elements and tone down others in the scene, and RT comes in and just splats its own brand of "new lighting" where all the feel of the place is thrown out the window, then I don't want it.

My problem with RT is that below PT, which is still ridiculously expensive, I don't think that it is a reliable lighting technique art-wise. I remember those CP2077 showcases, and I was looking at the RT/noRT images, and thinking "better with RT" "worse with RT" "better with RT" "worse with RT" every single image. It wasn't even 80% of the images that looked better, it was closer to 60% at best. Lots of indoor environments became smudged black and looked like nothing I would turn on.

As for PT, it solves a lot of my RT problems, and basically demands a 4x upscaling. A 4090, unequivocally a 4K card, will require upscaling from a 1080p base to play it. That's...well that's just ridiculous, plain and simple.

Upscaling on the other hand, I used to think is just to make your poor GPU run better, but I've really opened up to it now.
It's not just "my 1080p card can push to 1440p", it's a much broader "my card can now reliably run a bigger image" or "my card can now produce almost the same image at a much lower wattage cost". No upscaling is 100% perfect, and FSR is routinely noted as the worst of the bunch (and I bought AMD since I gave no fs about RT), but it hasn't stopped me from playing 4K games when my 7900 xt was a little too weak for it, and past the first hour or so of playing the "FSR doctor" and finding all the little things that looked worse, I just...played. Without even noticing it anymore.

Professional Bemoaners like Tim from HWUB can make his next 20 videos on how "FSR bad", but the intelligent question is "is FSR so bad that you'll notice it". Of course he won't raise that question since he'd lose one of his favorite dead horses to beat. But I did play with FSR on, and past actively looking for problems, it was good enough for 99% of the game. Which doesn't take away the need for improvement ofc, and in my 1600 base -> 2160p, FSR is already fed a lot, and FSR is far worse with a 1080p base, FSR has shimmering issues, FSR has all kinds of reasons to be improved.

But for all the issues it has, it's already good enough to use, and it is, broadly speaking, a net bonus. You want less power draw or more frames or a higher resolution at a minimal cost of image quality? Upscaling is an excellent way to get one of the three. And I expect that in time, every single last game will just use it by default because the IQ loss will be tiny and the general gains will be widely recognised.

RT however, I expect to still remain this Nvidia-backed scam, where you are sold on a "revolutionary lighting technique" that doesn't just eat frames like it's brownies, but also routinely juggles between better looking environments and plainly worse looking ones. It's not a "you pay in frames to get better lighting", it's "you pay in frames to get different, unequal lighting, some amazing, some just plain worse". For RT to fully realise its potential, we will need it to not be a tacked on system on top of a game, we will need games that are fully RT designed from the start.
And why don't we have those? Because Nvidia are scammers. Because RT with Turing was a fat joke. RT with Ampere was effectively unusable on cards below the 3080, by lack of raw compute or a tiny VRAM buffer (my condolences, 3070/Ti buyers).
The games industry runs not on "pay 50$ more, get RT in the game". It runs on "everyone pays $70 and gets the game". Hence the question for a studio is not in "do the players want RT", it's in "how many people can play RT, and will they still buy the game if we don't put RT". Development time pushed towards RT is one thing, but shipping a game that would solely use RT is an entirely different affair. A radically different one, because as we've seen with some overly ambitious games (Immortals of Aveum for ex.), gatekeeping your game on the grounds of a $800+ last gen GPU is just plain stupid.

Nvidia sold the RT meme as "ready" with Turing. It was a lie.
Did it again with Ampere. Less of a lie, but still nowhere near viable for an industry seeking number of buyers, not "class buyers". RT is just not financially viable yet. Anyone saying otherwise is either hugging his 3080 every night and cries that it loves it or has the Jensen brain parasite.
When the entire GPU stack, from top to bottom, plus one or two years of GPU renewal period, is properly RT capable, meaning anyone spending between $300 and $3000 will have a RT capable GPU, then games will be designed with RT in mind from start to finish. And it will be an amazing thing then. But we're not there until 2028 in my opinion. Jensen will have sold snake oil for nearly ten years, while very slowly turning it into wine. The Finest of Finewines, AMD should be proud.

P.S I don't wanna sound like I HATE RT, I saw it in modded FF XIV and found it an absolute improvement. But it's a mod. And honestly, great as the improvement was, it wasn't enough to get me to pay the NV tax. I think RT can be great, I just don't think it's financially viable for studios, for gamers, and that the only real earner of the fad is Nvidia.
 

Aapje

Golden Member
Mar 21, 2022
1,395
1,885
106
I do wonder whether they can still create excitement among consumers when RT finally trickles down to x060 cards. That they had to show pathtracing to generate a bit of excitement again, is not a good sign for them.

There is a cost to hyping something prematurely.
 

Mahboi

Senior member
Apr 4, 2024
342
579
91
The J Virus is strong. It'll manage to bring more people to NV's yard.
I'm more worried about the state of the games industry in general, and how much more or less development/tooling cost RT will bring to them.
AAA game devs are under an unacceptable amount of pressure, this can't last forever.
 

Aapje

Golden Member
Mar 21, 2022
1,395
1,885
106
Many of the bigger companies seem to have lost their way, both in gaming and elsewhere. I don't think that it's a coincidence that a game like Baldur's Gate 3, which rejects the AAA-dogma of the current era, did so well and another big hit was Helldivers 2, which is at most a AA game.

And with gaming hardware for car and flight simming I see the big companies getting passed left and right by small companies who don't have the sales network or such, but succeed simply based on the quality of their products.

And Hollywood is also doing horribly.

In many cases I think that these big companies have forgotten to work for their customers and have gotten addicted to churning out the same slop over and over, and got to a place where they could exploit human irrationality, but they've run the well dry. And because they forgot how to listen to consumers, they can't find a new well.
 
Reactions: Ranulf

Ranulf

Platinum Member
Jul 18, 2001
2,365
1,227
136
I would argue much of the problem is the drive for short term profits especially driven by publicly traded companies, across all industries. The big companies are not agile enough to shift focus when the old model of tech, game design, and what not is dying out.
 

Aapje

Golden Member
Mar 21, 2022
1,395
1,885
106
If they truly went for short-term profits they would at least give consumers what they want while filling the games with microtransactions and such. But they are also inserting offputting 'current year politics' into everything.

No, they disappeared into their own navels, trying to look good to their awful friends. They seem utterly bewildered that all the applause they get from that small niche of horrible people doesn't translate into strong world wide sales.
 

ToTTenTranz

Member
Feb 4, 2021
41
83
61
Aye to upscaling, nay to RT.

I guess RT will be interesting when everyone has cards and consoles that run it very well (sometime after 2028? 2030?). By then, I guess developers can just stop pre-backing lighting, building shadowmaps, etc. and just tell the engine to simulate the whole thing. That should result in somewhat smaller games and faster development time.

But until we get there, all I see is several episodes of the naked emperor saga, with Alex Battaglia chanting to the four winds about how accurate the lighting and reflections are on the latest Cyberpunk 2077 patch that brings $2000 graphics cards to their knees even with upscaling and frame-generation enabled... while I look at Horizon Forbidden West running on a 5x cheaper system and find it to look so much better.


Upscaling is a whole other thing, though. While it's obviously very useful for my 6900XT running a 32" 4K monitor, it absolutely shines in handheld gaming PCs with very high DPI like my Legion Go (or my ROG Ally before it or my Steam Deck before that). People who don't use these won't know, but the high pixel density does an excellent job at hiding almost all temporal artifacts in FSR2 or DP4a XeSS. Hogwarts Legacy is a very punishing game that looks awesome on the 8.8" 1600p panel in my Legion Go, after I implement the right temporal and spatial upscaling settings.
 

ToTTenTranz

Member
Feb 4, 2021
41
83
61
Because Art/Design is everything. Look how beautiful ORI.
It's not just that. Game engine developers have spent the last 30 years optimizing the rasterization tricks to look like as if they were simulations (raytracing).

That's why the latest screen space ambient occlusion don't look much worse than raytraced ambient occlusion, why screen space reflections don't look much worse than raytraced reflections, why screen space global illumination doesn't look much worse than raytraced global illumination, etc.
And all of them have a computational cost that is a fraction of the raytraced alternatives.

And the massive computational leeway from using rasterization can let a beautiful game run on a much cheaper and lower power device, or it can be used to process micro-polygons in the shader processors to reach incredible geometric detail (UE5 Nanite).
 

Aapje

Golden Member
Mar 21, 2022
1,395
1,885
106
"Give me raster, or give me death!"

~ Patrick Henry delivering his great speech on the rights of the gamers, before the Virginia Assembly, convened at Richmond, March 23rd 1775, concluding with the above sentiment, which became the war cry of the revolution.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,976
126
...while I look at Horizon Forbidden West running on a 5x cheaper system and find it to look so much better.

Because Art/Design is everything. Look how beautiful ORI.
Yep, exactly right. Art style, visual design and aesthetic direction are far more important than technical rendering prowess. I play a lot of old games regularly and it's amazing how well the quality of their art holds up visually.

I'm replaying Dishonored 1 right now, a 2012 game that still looks really nice. And it runs on an absolute potato with no shader stutter/compilation, fast load times, and only ~17GB for the base game and both substantial DLCs.

Who needs ray-traced global illumination when that moon lights up the area beautifully.


Most modern games that push "muh raytracing + moar upsaling" look like absolute garbage, a blurry smeary mess. Diablo 4 and Alan Wake 2 are some of the ugliest games I've ever seen. I'd rather play GLQuake than look at those monstrosities. Speaking of which:


Entirely pre-baked lighting back in 1996 had no trouble conveying lights and shadows. Also many games from that era had very good approximated mirrors and reflections that ran on Pentium/Voodoo class hardware. Now reflective puddles cut your framerate in half on a $2000 GPU.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,976
126
Looks pretty meh
Also if you look closer, you'll notice the game's capped @ 60 FPS. So it falsely looks like ray tracing is "only a 10FPS hit" when in reality the game would be running hundreds FPS @ uncapped rasterizer.

The fact that a $1200 4080 can't even reach 60 FPS in this ancient 2003 game shows the appalling fraud ray tracing perpetuates on customers.
 

ToTTenTranz

Member
Feb 4, 2021
41
83
61
Also if you look closer, you'll notice the game's capped @ 60 FPS. So it falsely looks like ray tracing is "only a 10FPS hit" when in reality the game would be running hundreds FPS @ uncapped rasterizer.

The fact that a $1200 4080 can't even reach 60 FPS in this ancient 2003 game shows the appalling fraud ray tracing perpetuates on customers.

The 4080 can probably run that game into the CPU bottleneck, which in a game like that should be into several hundred FPS.

A couple of raytracing features as optional settings for people with high-end GPUs is fine (though developers still need to implement rasterization alternatives so it's not less work, it's more work).
But yes, path tracing is a fraud in what relates to ratio of gain in IQ to performance hit.
 
Reactions: igor_kavinski

SolidQ

Senior member
Jul 13, 2023
323
331
96
a blurry smeary mess
when i'm played missed old games, they're clear and crisp without blue mess.
That my data from Steam 2023, What i'm played
Sherlocks looks crisp and clear, also Hexen in Zdoom mode, and other old games

Entirely pre-baked lighting back in 1996 had no trouble conveying lights and shadows
Also this was beautiful. Was played demo with 13fps on MX400, than full game on X800XL

Who needs ray-traced global illumination when that moon lights up the area beautifully.
Alot people crying they need True GI Lighning. Because Alex Bataglia said it's superior

P.S Also had watch interview in 2019, World of Tank dev, he's saying normal RT will become in 15-20years. That mean like 2035+

Playing Lost Judgment. Old style Reflection, and don't need RT for kill perfomance


Hitman Contract PS2

Alan Wake 2 PT
 
Last edited:

blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
9,131
3,072
136
www.teamjuchems.com
Many of the bigger companies seem to have lost their way, both in gaming and elsewhere. I don't think that it's a coincidence that a game like Baldur's Gate 3, which rejects the AAA-dogma of the current era, did so well and another big hit was Helldivers 2, which is at most a AA game.

And with gaming hardware for car and flight simming I see the big companies getting passed left and right by small companies who don't have the sales network or such, but succeed simply based on the quality of their products.

And Hollywood is also doing horribly.

In many cases I think that these big companies have forgotten to work for their customers and have gotten addicted to churning out the same slop over and over, and got to a place where they could exploit human irrationality, but they've run the well dry. And because they forgot how to listen to consumers, they can't find a new well.

Don't insult my democracy simulator that way!

HA.

That plus Deep Rock Galactic should show that there is a healthy customer base for games you pay for once and could possibly elect to spend more on later. And the games - mostly - just work. Palworld to the side, its apparent that you don't need spend $200M on your seasonal shooter in order to make some time-worthy games.

I am playing through Evil West with a buddy and that is definitely an AA level game.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |