Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)

[DisEnchantment]

Speculate at will

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

The mainstream recently got Rembrandt at a good price, I think this+next year the mainstream will be 8540U

I think both Rembrandt and Escher/Hawk will get the boot after this year. MS will want every laptop to support AI PC sooner than later.

It's no wonder neither Snapdragon X Plus nor KRK 243 lose the 45 TOPs NPU, despite being such cutdown parts.

 

[adroc_thurston]

The mainstream recently got Rembrandt at a good price, I think this+next year the mainstream will be 8540U (small phoenix)

nope.

KRK 243

that's 242.

 

[Fjodor2001]

Zen 5 DT won't have an NPU and thus won't support AI PC without a dGPU. But it shouldn't matter.

Q - Do it Yourself Desktop Users who want AI PC experiences without being attached to an Laptop. How will they be able to get it?

They can buy an dGPU that meets the minimum system TOPs. Or can replace their system with Intel Arrow Lake which will have ~70 TOPs total, with 16 - 20 TOPs from the overclocked SoC NPU and ~50 TOPs from the brand new TSMC N4 Xe LPG with XMX units.

So clearly Intel makes another judgement here w.r.t. whether it makes sense to incude NPU on desktop CPUs, since Arrow Lake DT will include it.

You can argue which path is the correct one, i.e. to include NPU on desktop CPUs or not. But to say that there is absolutely no discussion about what is correct path to take is simply not being honest. Especially with all the AI hype, and users buying a new PC wanting to be future-proof in this regard.

For those that do not need a dGPU on desktop, but want an AI-capable Win12 PC, they will have two options. Buy an Intel Arrow Lake CPU which already has an NPU included, or buy an AMD Zen5 CPU without NPU included + dGPU (which they do not really need, except for the AI capabilities). For those, the former option will be much cheaper.

That said, I still think it is unclear whether or not AMD will have a solution to comply with the AI requirements on Zen5 DT. In their presentation slides they have stated that it’ll include ”Integrated AI and Machine Learning optimizations”. But no further details about what that means in practice. Could be that Zen5 DT will achieve the 40 TOPS via e.g. iGPU + some kind of generic AI optimized CPU instructions.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

that's 242.

So it's actually 2 WGP instead of 3? Basically mirroring PHX2 for KRK 242 and PHX1 for KRK 444 (Sans the GPU).

Honestly, that's fine for me. RDNA 3.5 WGP @ 3+GHz and with 3.5 enhancements should be able to outpace Radeon 740M fairly easily. And the Z5 CPU will race eons ahead of Z4. The cheaper the merrier 😂

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

So clearly Intel makes another judgement here w.r.t. whether it makes sense to incude NPU on desktop CPUs, since Arrow Lake DT will include it.

You can argue which path is the correct one, i.e. to include NPU on desktop CPUs or not. But to say that there is absolutely no discussion about what is correct path to take is simply not being honest. Especially with all the AI hype, and users buying a new PC wanting to be future-proof in this regard.

For those that do not need a dGPU on desktop, but want an AI-capable Win12 PC, they will have two options. Buy an Intel Arrow Lake CPU which already has an NPU included, or buy an AMD Zen5 without NPU included + dGPU (which they do not really need, except for the AI capabilities). For those, the former option will be much cheaper.

That said, I still think it is unclear whether or not AMD will have a solution to comply with the AI requirements on Zen5 DT. In their presentation slides they have stated that it’ll include ”Integrated AI and Machine Learning optimizations”. But no further details about what that means in practice. Could be that Zen5 DT will achieve the 40 TOPS via e.g. iGPU + some kind of generic AI optimized CPU instructions.

ARL DT meeting the requirements is more of a side-effect from reusing the same tiles as MTL and the need of adding back XMX units to the iGPU for ARL-H to meet AI PC requirements.

You're correct in saying that Intel judged differently. But, as others said, it doesn't matter much because nor DT is the focus of AI PC push nor DT users will value AI PC compatibility.

This will have a bigger impact in DT OEMs. But that's a tiny slice of the market in comparison to mobile.

 

[Abwx]

It was a response needed since only mobile variants were mentioned regarding NPU. And DT PCs are not always paired with dGPU. You should know that by now. But you’re sounding like a broken record about it.

There s a test at computerbase, a mainstream GPU is miles above an integrated NPU, current low end dGPUs have several years advance, even next gen APUs will trail by a 4x ratio compared to a current low cost dGPU.

In the years 1995-2005 a PC would had hardly lasted more than a few years, it was not expected that 10-15 years old PCs would be still relevant nowadays for basic usage, so this AI thing is just a mean to get the PC market growing again by forcing people to upgrade even recent laptops that otherwise would have been functional well past 2030.